Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Damian

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Video is shi***y and the book is poorly written..

I cant help myself :rofl:

Another reference..

M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982-92 - Steven J. Zaloga - Google Books
Yes, these are poorly written book and shity video. As for Steven Zaloga book, look what he is writing, disagreements about nuclear program prevented to sold M1. And Zaloga is more credible source than a shity Pakistani video and even more shity Pakistani novel made by people that do not have even half of knowledge about tanks that Zaloga have and access to documents that Zaloga have, and Zaloga is not the best writer out there.

here are some more..

The Pakistan Cauldron: Conspiracy, Assassination & Instability - James P. Farwell - Google Books


Mother India: A Political Biography of Indira Gandhi - Pranay Gupte - Google Books
Ok, so here we have one conspiracy theory book, and the second one that actually claims that Zia was impressed with tanks performance. ;)

its a communication antenna, no need to convince an ignorant, he will never admit that he is proven wrong.
Maybe because you have problems with reading in english, but I was not talking about tank tested by Saudi Arabia, but about MBT-3000 that it's addon armor package is ERA.
 

Dazzler

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This is your own post from this very page.. post 6347


How many times it needed to be repeated that this story is lie?

And it is not M-1 but M1, this is how designation codes are written per US nomenclature.

M1 did not failed (no proof that it was even tested, besides some hideous claims by people that don't even have knowledge about tanks), and it is a better tank than Al Khalid in every aspect actually.

Funny thing is that due to lack of proofs, none of you can backup your claims with anything besides some silly stories, about how one of your high rank officers was killed because of this event, what is even more funny, there are no photos neither videos from the tests, no documents either.

I wonder if this will be backed up with more conspiracy theories.

And one more thing you ignorant. I was not talking about ERA on a tank that was tested in Saudi Arabia, but on Chinese MBT-3000 which photo you showed.

Neither Al Khalid tested in Saudi Arabia have thicker armor, why should it have? It is nothing more than another makeup story by Pakistani fanboys who wish to make their Chinese tank looks better than it is.

In fact the only good design solutions in this tank, are imported from Ukraine and France.


Why are you embarrassing youself man? You refuted the M1 trials ever took place in Pakistan and now you have been proven wrong. You claim to be educated so behave like one and accept the reality.

Your ignorance is not going to change the reality that M1 was tested and failed miserably during trials. 10/10 misses is a sheer let down.
 
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Dazzler

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How many times it needed to be repeated that this story is lie?

And it is not M-1 but M1, this is how designation codes are written per US nomenclature.

M1 did not failed (no proof that it was even tested, besides some hideous claims by people that don't even have knowledge about tanks), and it is a better tank than Al Khalid in every aspect actually.

Funny thing is that due to lack of proofs, none of you can backup your claims with anything besides some silly stories, about how one of your high rank officers was killed because of this event, what is even more funny, there are no photos neither videos from the tests, no documents either.

I wonder if this will be backed up with more conspiracy theories. :D

And one more thing you ignorant. I was not talking about ERA on a tank that was tested in Saudi Arabia, but on Chinese MBT-3000 which photo you showed.

Neither Al Khalid tested in Saudi Arabia have thicker armor, why should it have? It is nothing more than another makeup story by Pakistani fanboys who wish to make their Chinese tank looks better than it is.

In fact the only good design solutions in this tank, are imported from Ukraine and France.
Any linkconfirming this miss 10/10 times ?
go through the previous page, you will find some :)
 

Damian

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There is also another possibility why some Pakistani people believe that M1 mist 10 out 10 targets. It is simple lack of knowledge.

In all tank trails, targets that are used, are made from simple soft material on which target is printed. Most likely people that made up a story about missing all targets, expected explosions and such stuff.

However what they don't know, and what Dazzler seems to not know, during trails, most common used ammunition is training ammunition which is inert. Both trainisn APDS/APFSDS and training HEAT rounds do not explode, why APDS/APFSDS do not explode is obvious, however training HEAT rounds (or even HE or HESH) do not contain explosive material, but they are thick steel blocks or steel encased concrete that only simulate ballistic properties and weight of projectile.

Which means that it is immposible in most cases without very good optics, to say if tank hit a target or missed it.

And I am sure Dazzler never seen a tank firing range and how it looks without use of high magnification optics.

After deeper study of what Dazzler posted, it seems that story was made by some people observing the tests, but none of them were experts on tanks, and most likely mixed up some things.

What is more funny, it seems that the basic source of the story, is a novel like book written by some Pakistani author, who obviously was more concentrated on feelings and other irrelevant things than tank and tank firing range.

Besides seriously, a modern tank with modern FCS at a typical distance, just can't miss all targets, sometimes it happens but not all targets can be miss, it is just immposible unless crew is incompetent (which is not a failure of tank, but morons sitting inside) or wrong zeroing of gun and sights, which is again not fault of tank but crew.

Dazzler do you even had a chance to familirize yourself with M1's fire control system? Or any modern tanks FCS?
 

Dazzler

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There is also another possibility why some Pakistani people believe that M1 mist 10 out 10 targets. It is simple lack of knowledge.

In all tank trails, targets that are used, are made from simple soft material on which target is printed. Most likely people that made up a story about missing all targets, expected explosions and such stuff.

However what they don't know, and what Dazzler seems to not know, during trails, most common used ammunition is training ammunition which is inert. Both trainisn APDS/APFSDS and training HEAT rounds do not explode, why APDS/APFSDS do not explode is obvious, however training HEAT rounds (or even HE or HESH) do not contain explosive material, but they are thick steel blocks or steel encased concrete that only simulate ballistic properties and weight of projectile.

Which means that it is immposible in most cases without very good optics, to say if tank hit a target or missed it.

And I am sure Dazzler never seen a tank firing range and how it looks without use of high magnification optics.

After deeper study of what Dazzler posted, it seems that story was made by some people observing the tests, but none of them were experts on tanks, and most likely mixed up some things.

What is more funny, it seems that the basic source of the story, is a novel like book written by some Pakistani author, who obviously was more concentrated on feelings and other irrelevant things than tank and tank firing range.

Besides seriously, a modern tank with modern FCS at a typical distance, just can't miss all targets, sometimes it happens but not all targets can be miss, it is just immposible unless crew is incompetent (which is not a failure of tank, but morons sitting inside) or wrong zeroing of gun and sights, which is again not fault of tank but crew.

Dazzler do you even had a chance to familirize yourself with M1's fire control system? Or any modern tanks FCS?

its getting boring now really, just two things.

* the documentary is NOT made by some pakistani channel or M1 hater or Al Khalid lover, rather,it was aired on BBC. Cant you differentiate the accent?

* i have seen more of main batle tanks and armour technology than you can even imagine but boasitng about it is not my domain. I try to learn and share and believe thats the way it should be.
 

The Last Stand

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its getting boring now really, just two things.
* the documentary is NOT made by some pakistani channel or M1 hater or Al Khalid lover, rather,it was aired on BBC. Cant you differentiate the accent?
We can discern accents.

BBC for a source about tanks? Pitiful.

The Englishers need to elevate the status of their Challenger and make people believe the Abrams is incompetent. Simple logic -> Easier to see through such things.

* i have seen more of main batle tanks and armour technology than you can even imagine but boasitng about it is not my domain. I try to learn and share and believe thats the way it should be.
Yeah, right. You can't discern an AMX-30 from an M-60 while Damian can correctly pick out T-55 and T-72 variants with 100% accuracy, believe it or not. Keep such nonsense in your own mind. Because you don't want to go up vis-à-vis Damian in anything remotely connected with tanks.

And what are you doing here but boasting?
 

Dazzler

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We can discern accents.

BBC for a source about tanks? Pitiful.

The Englishers need to elevate the status of their Challenger and make people believe the Abrams is incompetent. Simple logic -> Easier to see through such things.



Yeah, right. You can't discern an AMX-30 from an M-60 while Damian can correctly pick out T-55 and T-72 variants with 100% accuracy, believe it or not. Keep such nonsense in your own mind. Because you don't want to go up vis-à-vis Damian in anything remotely connected with tanks.

And what are you doing here but boasting?
its not called boasting, rather a reality check ;)
 

Damian

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@Dazzler, so as a source about tanks performance, you use some idiotic TV shows about conspiracy theories and assassination, where there are nothing about tanks really, not tank experts, no details, just some random claims, that can be considered as taken from a novel like book written by some Pakistani?

I ask you again, what is your education, because it is more and more obvious that you never achieved any degree on university from subjects where capability to seek sources and know what is source and what can't be considered source.

So I tell you, a TV show and a book that is more a novel than scientific work is not a source, and can't be considered as a reliable source of information.

What is more, the only two sources, which can be considered as reliable, are book written by Steven Zaloga, who is known and respected author, and he writes that M1 deal was never finalized because US have a disagreement with Pakistan about it's nuclear program. And the second book that can be considered as serious source, which says that Pakistani officials were rather impressed with M1's performance during tests.

Furthermore I explained that people without knowledge and education about tanks and technology, can confuse what they see.

The standard training ammunition is inert and furthermore, targets used in such tests are simply made from material and targets are just printed or painted on such shields.

At a distance of several kilometers a person that do not have knowledge and good optics, can thing that tank do not hit target, simply because such people expect a lot of explosions when projectile hits a target, which is obviously false assumption.

And these are very logical arguments, based on avaiable materials, you provided.


Seriously, if I would ever use such thinking and such poor sources when writing my licence work, I would never achieve a degree in national security, and my work was about armored fighting vehicles development, so seriously I know what I am talking about.
 
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Dazzler

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@Dazzler, so as a source about tanks performance, you use some idiotic TV shows about conspiracy theories and assassination, where there are nothing about tanks really, not tank experts, no details, just some random claims, that can be considered as taken from a novel like book written by some Pakistani?

I ask you again, what is your education, because it is more and more obvious that you never achieved any degree on university from subjects where capability to seek sources and know what is source and what can't be considered source.

So I tell you, a TV show and a book that is more a novel than scientific work is not a source, and can't be considered as a reliable source of information.

What is more, the only two sources, which can be considered as reliable, are book written by Steven Zaloga, who is known and respected author, and he writes that M1 deal was never finalized because US have a disagreement with Pakistan about it's nuclear program. And the second book that can be considered as serious source, which says that Pakistani officials were rather impressed with M1's performance during tests.

Furthermore I explained that people without knowledge and education about tanks and technology, can confuse what they see.

The standard training ammunition is inert and furthermore, targets used in such tests are simply made from material and targets are just printed or painted on such shields.

At a distance of several kilometers a person that do not have knowledge and good optics, can thing that tank do not hit target, simply because such people expect a lot of explosions when projectile hits a target, which is obviously false assumption.

And these are very logical arguments, based on avaiable materials, you provided.


Seriously, if I would ever use such thinking and such poor sources when writing my licence work, I would never achieve a degree in national security, and my work was about armored fighting vehicles development, so seriously I know what I am talking about.

I just answered your negation of M1 Abrams demonstration in Pakistan back in 1988. Nowhere did i question your education or eligibility in your field.

Ever wonder why i tag you along with other knowledgable members in several of my posts? It is because i value your contribution regarding armour and military technology. This includes several other members on this forum. I have no hesitation is admitting that i have learned a few things while on this forum.



On a personal account, One of my relatives were a part of M1 demostrations plan, he discussed some funny thngs about how it broke down several times during various demonstrations such as firing on the move, engine had several issues in desert region as it broke down twice. Gun was also not impressive and it was 105 mm instead of the formidable 120 mm smoothbore M256.

The optics were just about ok but the FCS was quite impressive. Overall, it was just an export version so one can expect such flaws.
 
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