Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Blood+]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Front hull? Well it will be circa 70-80% of turret front protection in typical conditions.
Leopard-2A4 front turret LOS thickness is 84cm, but front hull is only 60cm in 2A5DK, Strv.122, 2A6E/HEL, 2A7 version front hull have double NERA panels so protection is incarase a lot.
M1A2 front turret is circa 96cm LOS thickness, but front hull is 65-70cm thick BUT after this is almoust 1m fuel tank whit special construction, so M1 Abrams have without doubt the best protected hull front from all known tanks now.
T-72B have max 650mm thick hull but there is huge weak spot armound driver periscope.


hull thickness:

here you have my estimatous about Char Leclerc:

and here my values for T-72B model 1989:

Thnak you.Then Arjun MkI should have LOS of atleast 650mm at the Glasis/upper front hull.Besides,there is also a very large fuel tank behind the glacis plate.Am I right??

And any idea about the LOS thickness at front hull and turret of China's ZTZ 99A2??
Thanks.

 

[Damian]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

And any idea about the LOS thickness at front hull and turret of China's ZTZ 99A2??

Most likely similiar to "T" tanks, as Chinese are inspired by Russians.

 

[methos]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Thnak you.Then Arjun MkI should have LOS of atleast 650mm at the Glasis/upper front hull.

Dejawolf already answered this question some pages earlier:

 

[Blood+]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

By the way militarysta,can you give some info wrt your KAWA 2 special armor-like its composition,thickness to protection ratio and some pictures?
And how does it compare to the armor technology used Leo 2A6 and other NATO MBTs?

Thanks.

 

[militarysta]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

in google put CAWA-2 armour phase and searcht

 

[Andrei_bt]

 

[Blood+]

Well - here You have values:

Those values are from using CAWA as add-on armour on T-72M1 hull and posible on turret.

Values for "nacked" CAWA-2 in T-72M1 hull and turret:

.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

[Damian]

You made so many wrong conclusions, and even confused M60A3's with AMX-30's, that only thing I can say is, learn more about tanks.

And no, the turret of this Al Khalid is not thicker, again you are making up story to present this tank in better light than it is.

And I am not surprised that instead of purchasing Al Khalid, Saudi Arabians purchase more M1A2S, and look after Altay, both of them are better designs than Al Khalid.

 

[Dazzler]

You made so many wrong conclusions, and even confused M60A3's with AMX-30's, that only thing I can say is, learn more about tanks.

And no, the turret of this Al Khalid is not thicker, again you are making up story to present this tank in better light than it is.

And I am not surprised that instead of purchasing Al Khalid, Saudi Arabians purchase more M1A2S, and look after Altay, both of them are better designs than Al Khalid.

Yep i did mistook M-60s for AMX-30s my bad,,, BUT, there is quite a bit of history behind not going for AKs. Unless you know it, its better not to comment on it. Saudis found interest in it back in 2003-04 and very much liked the performance. Back then, there was no Altay on the scene.

Heck we even offered a 120 mm gun (4th prototype config) to them. The deal broke when they intended to buy 50 but HIT was looking for 100-150 as they initially promised after the trials.

Lastly, AK was meant to replace their AMX and M-60 fleet and complement M1A2s, not to replace it.

 

[Dazzler]

@Damian, @militarysta, @methos, @Akim, @Andrei_bt

Anyone here who knows that M-1 Abrams was tested in Pakistan back in 1988? It had multiple issues with fire accuracy, engine and mobility at Bahawalpur region. Poor thing missed 10/10 times

 

[Damian]

@Damian, @militarysta, @methos, @Akim, @Andrei_bt

Anyone here who knows that M-1 Abrams was tested in Pakistan back in 1988? It had multiple issues with fire accuracy, engine and mobility at Bahawalpur region. Poor thing missed 10/10 times

How many times it needed to be repeated that this story is lie?

And it is not M-1 but M1, this is how designation codes are written per US nomenclature.

M1 did not failed (no proof that it was even tested, besides some hideous claims by people that don't even have knowledge about tanks), and it is a better tank than Al Khalid in every aspect actually.

Funny thing is that due to lack of proofs, none of you can backup your claims with anything besides some silly stories, about how one of your high rank officers was killed because of this event, what is even more funny, there are no photos neither videos from the tests, no documents either.

I wonder if this will be backed up with more conspiracy theories.

And one more thing you ignorant. I was not talking about ERA on a tank that was tested in Saudi Arabia, but on Chinese MBT-3000 which photo you showed.

Neither Al Khalid tested in Saudi Arabia have thicker armor, why should it have? It is nothing more than another makeup story by Pakistani fanboys who wish to make their Chinese tank looks better than it is.

In fact the only good design solutions in this tank, are imported from Ukraine and France.

 

[Dazzler]

How many times it needed to be repeated that this story is lie?

And it is not M-1 but M1, are you incapable to even use proper designation codes proper for each country nomenclature?

M1 did not failed (no proof that it was even tested, besides some hideous claims by people that don't even have knowledge about tanks), and it is a better tank than Al Khalid in every aspect actually.

But of course like typical Pakistani that likes to feed with propaganda, you can talk whatever you wish, there is not even a single objective proof that M1 failed in Pakistan.

And one more thing you ignorant. I was not talking about ERA on a tank that was tested in Saudi Arabia, but on Chinese MBT-3000 which photo you showed.

Neither Al Khalid tested in Saudi Arabia have thicker armor, why should it have? It is nothing more than another makeup story by Pakistani fanboys who wish to make their Chinese tank looks better than it is.

In fact the only good design solutions in this tank, are imported from Ukraine and France.

I knew it

The fact is that Gen Zia witnessed these trials and was on his way back when his Hercules crashed.


watch the video from 4.08 onwards,


@Damian,

 

[Damian]

I knew it

The fact is that Gen Zia witnessed these trials and was on his way back when his Hercules crashed.


watch the video from 4.08 onwards,


@Damian,

And this is a proof for what?

Show me documents, show me test results that were documented, not a video that makes some hideous claims and do not show even results.

Tell me please, how well you are educated? Did you ever recived lessons what is reliable source and what is not a reliable source?

In my country on any university, making such claims and backing them up by stupid TV shows, would end up with student kicked out from professors room during consultations.

You know what is even more funny? They don't even show a tank on firing position, we do not know even if fragments showing tank, shows it in Pakistan, or on some other desert.

The gun that fires is not an M68A1 used on M1 and M1IP (lack of thermal sleeve and MRS device) neither the M256 (same, lack of thermal sleeve and MRS) used on M1A1 and M1A2.

Seriously, you believe, that all people around the world are really naive, stupid and poorly educated about this single discussed subject, that they will believe in such a weak "source"?

What's more, who crewed the tank? A US crew or Pakistani crew? Who maintained the tank? How many tanks particpated in tests? One, two? More?

Again, what are documented results, I mean documented! Not some stupid TV documentaries. More, how many test runs were made? One? More?

 

[Dazzler]

And this is a proof for what?

Show me documents, show me test results that were documented, not a video that makes some hideous claims and do not show even results.

Tell me please, how well you are educated? Did you ever recived lessons what is reliable source and what is not a reliable source?

In my country on any university, making such claims and backing them up by stupid TV shows, would end up with student kicked of from profesors room.

You know what is even more funny? They don't even show a tank on firing position, we do not know even if fragments showing tanks, shows it in Pakistan, or on some other desert.

The gun that fires is not a M68A1 used on M1 and M1IP (lack of thermal sleeve and MRS device) neither the M256 (same, lack of thermal sleeve and MRS).

Seriously, you believe, that all people around the world are really naive, stupid and poorly educated about a single subject, that they will believe in such a weak "source"?

What's more, who crewed the tank? A US crew or Pakistani crew? Who maintained the tank? How many tanks particpated in tests? One, two? More?

Again, what are documented results, I mean documented? More, how many test runs were made? One? More?

Looks like it hit you where it hurts most. You are an Abrams fan i know but dont take it so hard, its a historic fact backed by the video i posted. If you believe otherwise, bring some evidence against it i.e. this never happened.

Regarding documents, man are you serious?? Does Polish military show documents for military transfers before the public?

The bottomline is, you always refuted the M1 trials even occurred in Pakistan and you have been proven wrong big time. Bring some evidence that it never happened and i will continue the debate.

Till then, enjoy the video

 

[Dazzler]

A case of exploding Mangoes by Muhammad Hanif, reference to M1 Abrams trials and poor performance in Pakistan

Read chapter Thirty One


A case of Exploding Mangoes - Mohammed Hanif - Google Books

 

[Damian]

Looks like it hit you where it hurts most. You are an Abrams fan i know but dont take it so hard, its a historic fact backed by the video i posted. If you believe otherwise, bring some evidence against it i.e. this never happened.

Not, it is not backed up by video.

Ok I put it the other thing.

Such videos are good for poorly educated morons, do you understand, they are made for morons by morons, TV is mostly for morons not educated people. Give me documents.

Regarding documents, man are you serious?? Does Polish military show documents for military transfers before the public?

Yes some documents are released for public knowledge in Poland and many other countries. However I know that in country like Pakistan, such things like Army transparency and civilian control over armed forces, are completely alien.

In USA documents about failures, weapons performance and maintnance are released for public, so public can know, where their tax money goes.

Here, search, I am still searching and no informations about M1's problems in Pakistan.

DTIC Home Page

This is DTIC site, where such documents are released.

The bottomline is, you always refuted the M1 trials even occurred in Pakistan and you have been proven wrong big time. Bring some evidence that it never happened and i will continue the debate.

And I still refute that such thing ever happened. US documents do not mention anything like that, neither a failure of a tank. And believe me, if they would be such failure, congress would demand answers, because this is how it works in western world. Army can't make everything secret, because civilians control military not military controls civilians. And such documents do not need to be classified, because they do not contain any classified informations. Maintnance issues and overall performance is declassified for public knowledge, classified are only things like armor and ammunition performance.

Now, look at DTIC and try to find anything about failure in Pakistan. Good luck, I can't find such informations. Same in literature, I have several books about M1, both in English and Russian as well as Polish, not even a single mention in them about Pakistani trails, and believe me, Russians would just love to put such informations there.

Till then, enjoy the video

Why should I or anyone else? It is typical shity TV "documentary" based on generalizations, half truths, lies etc. I would preffer documents or at least a book describing in detail these tests, what was done, what was done wrong, what right, what were conditions, crew and maintnance crews training.

A case of exploding Mangoes by Muhammad Hanif, reference to M1 Abrams trials and poor performance in Pakistan

Read chapter Thirty One


A case of Exploding Mangoes - Mohammed Hanif - Google Books

I see nothing interesting there. And the book is poorly written, there is more about some religion chants and other useless shit, nothing detailed about tests. I am sure that person that written it is also not expert on AFV's and preaty much don't know about them anything.

Give me something better than things wirtten by ignorants.

I written the book more, and it looks more like a some sort of novel than a scientific book about a one very specific subject.

Seriously, I don't know to cry about author of this piece of crap, or laugh.

 

[Pakistani Nationalist]

such as? which "type series" do Saudi Army operate? Please enlighten us.

The pic is from "Al-Samsaam 3" exercises between Saudi and Pak army held at Bahawalpur in 2006

Do you think only Saudis were operating AVs? also look at the mbt clearly.. its turret n its front..

 

[Dazzler]

Not, it is not backed up by video.

Ok I put it the other thing.

Such videos are good for poorly educated morons, do you understand, they are made for morons by morons, TV is mostly for morons not educated people. Give me documents.



Yes some documents are released for public knowledge in Poland and many other countries. However I know that in country like Pakistan, such things like Army transparency and civilian control over armed forces, are completely alien.

In USA documents about failures, weapons performance and maintnance are released for public, so public can know, where their tax money goes.

Here, search, I am still searching and no informations about M1's problems in Pakistan.

DTIC Home Page

This is DTIC site, where such documents are released.



And I still refute that such thing ever happened. US documents do not mention anything like that, neither a failure of a tank. And believe me, if they would be such failure, congress would demand answers, because this is how it works in western world. Army can't make everything secret, because civilians control military not military controls civilians. And such documents do not need to be classified, because they do not contain any classified informations. Maintnance issues and overall performance is declassified for public knowledge, classified are only things like armor and ammunition performance.

Now, look at DTIC and try to find anything about failure in Pakistan. Good luck, I can't find such informations. Same in literature, I have several books about M1, both in English and Russian as well as Polish, not even a single mention in them about Pakistani trails, and believe me, Russians would just love to put such informations there.



Why should I or anyone else? It is typical shity TV "documentary" based on generalizations, half truths, lies etc. I would preffer documents or at least a book describing in detail these tests, what was done, what was done wrong, what right, what were conditions, crew and maintnance crews training.



I see nothing interesting there. And the book is poorly written, there is more about some religion chants and other useless shit, nothing detailed about tests. I am sure that person that written it is also not expert on AFV's and preaty much don't know about them anything.

Give me something better than things wirtten by ignorants.

Video is shi***y and the book is poorly written..

I cant help myself

Another reference..

http://books.google.com.pk/books?id...wAA#v=onepage&q=M1 Abrams in pakistan&f=false

 

[Dazzler]

here are some more..

The Pakistan Cauldron: Conspiracy, Assassination & Instability - James P. Farwell - Google Books


Mother India: A Political Biography of Indira Gandhi - Pranay Gupte - Google Books

 

[farhan_9909]

Well it doesnt matter whether abram was tested in Pakistan or not..but importing them would have proved a disastor for us like the f-16's

under sanction for 20 long years.they would had been as good as disable tanks.

Al khalid gave Pakistan capability of a complete designing,manufacturing and development many components experience and industry

all these armour development industries,guns development..ammo developments.fcs developments,aps development and many such are only because of the al khalid project

Now in future Pakistan can design its own tank/IFV without any other country support with majority of the components to be also sourced from local industry.may be even engine within the next decade