Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202


Ok, an update on the seen "tank" like vehicle. Well from informations I gathered it is not a tank, not an MBT but... some sort of assault gun, assault tank or BMPT with a big gun.

It is however based on heavy tracked universal combat platform "Armata". But... "Armata" itself is designed by UVZ from Nizhny Tagil, while the turret module making it that assault gun/BMPT was designed by KBTM from Omsk.

UVZ also have financing from Russian MoD for "Armata" MBT, IFV and ARV versions while any other possible variant will be UVZ iniciative, and if possible other companies like KBTM.
 

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
@Damian

There is signiture under this model - And If I see properly it called Armata :) And turret system is not so important here - chassis is definetly Armata model if signiture is ok :) But we can see "А....та" on this white decription before modell so what ca it be? ;-)
 

pmaitra

New Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,600


Ok, an update on the seen "tank" like vehicle. Well from informations I gathered it is not a tank, not an MBT but... some sort of assault gun, assault tank or BMPT with a big gun.

It is however based on heavy tracked universal combat platform "Armata". But... "Armata" itself is designed by UVZ from Nizhny Tagil, while the turret module making it that assault gun/BMPT was designed by KBTM from Omsk.

UVZ also have financing from Russian MoD for "Armata" MBT, IFV and ARV versions while any other possible variant will be UVZ iniciative, and if possible other companies like KBTM.
Here is another source (CLICK):
9 days ago the deputy Russian PM visited Perm, Russia were new military vehicles are being designed/produced.

Here is a pic of the design of a new Russian MBT design.

According to the source this is NOT the Armata. I believe it can either be an earlier model for a T-95/Armata project or even a more advanced long-term replacement for Russia's Armored Force.


Note the 125mm main gun and the 45 or 57mm automatic grenade launcher.
According to the source: Location is Perm, not Nizhny-Tagil or Omsk. It is an MBT, with 125mm main gun.
 

pmaitra

New Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,600
@Akim, I have question, can You tanslate this what is in table here:
http://s019.radikal.ru/i617/1207/ab/a052eeb313b1.jpg
??
For me only important think is what is in table - what colour (light, medium, dark colour) means?
  • Dark colour: перспективны - promising (probably - what are the prospects of this product?)
  • Medium colour: модернизация - modernization (probably - what percentage of the product has been modernized?)
  • Light colour: серия - series (probably - what is version of the product?)

From what I understood: Looking at the graph, I get the impression that серия implies the base version, модернизация implies what have actually been modernized with domestic technology, and перспективны what is the projected future modernization or potential for modernization vis-à-vis foreign technology. The graph label reads военно технический уровень отечественных и зарубежных танков, i.e. military technological level of domestic and foreign tanks.
 
Last edited:

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
@UP
Thank You! :)

Well it's interesting so based western MBTs have:

Leo-2A5 - 1.95
M1A1 - 1.92
Leclerc - 2.3

And estern MBTs:

T-80BW - 1.1
T-72B - 1.2
T-80U - 1.38
T-90 - 1.5

It's "eloquent" :) for the other hand:
 

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202


Turkish Altay. Seems nice design to me. Driver in the hull center line (better visibility for front, left and right), main sight placed behind armor, seems well protected too. I would call it a basterd child of M1 Abrams, Leopard 2 and K2 Black Panther. The only problematic design solution I see, is this unisolated ammunition in hull.

I completely not understand why Leopard 2A6E/HEL should be better with outdated FCS, older armor protection, comparable mobility and firepower to M1A2SEP that have more modern FCS and more modern armor protection? You should first ask me about the technical specification of non German tanks.

I also do not understand why basic M1A2 is worser than Leopard 2A6? Both are comparable, M1A2 in fact have many advantages, like APU, better FCS, it was first tank in the world with the really first one, working BMS system.
 
Last edited:

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
I completely not understand why Leopard 2A6E/HEL should be better with outdated FCS, older armor protection, comparable mobility and firepower to M1A2SEP that have more modern FCS and more modern armor protection? You should first ask me about the technical specification of non German tanks.

I also do not understand why basic M1A2 is worser than Leopard 2A6? Both are comparable, M1A2 in fact have many advantages, like APU, better FCS, it was first tank in the world with the really first one, working BMS system.
Look at source ;-) It will explain all.

BTW: - without sources problem - You, as always underestimated Leo2A6 :) About FCS As I remember Leo2A6 achive better result durin greek tank trial test then M1A2...so be cerfull about "outdated FCS".


About Altay - this tank about turret just coppy Leo-2 turret desine. It's amoust the same. Hull ammo is not not so bad idea:


For the one side hull ammo store is short target and covered by frontal armour and side skirts but for the other hands - In Leo2 all ammo is placed on one side and driver on second so angle are better then in that case. IMHO it slighty sefer, but its not so bad in Altay. This tank have more from Leo-2 then from K-2... Interesting how taken Leo-2A4 had influence on Altay program. Turret is just copied.
Well good patterns alwyes will be copied.
 
Last edited:

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
Look at source ;-) It will explain all.

BTW: - without sources problem - There is
If Tarasenko is a source then I strongly recommend to ignore him.

Knowledge about American tanks from the non American and not good sources (sometimes unofficial ones unfortunetly) is poor.

Well this is why I plan to write several good books maybe in future about this subject in our language. ;)

But this is a future, and for now to explain.

The M1A2 was first tank of the digital era. In fact French might say otherwise, but Leclerc recived true BMS, the FINDERS system only some time after their induction. M1A2's IVIS system, even if it had buggy software, was first succesfull BMS system ever fielded.

This gave incredible advantage to the M1A2 equipped units. For example it greatly increased commanders situational awareness, because he knew where his tanks are, and what they are doing... this gives new tactical options for commanders in the field. Also fire support requests were easier.

But the real revolution comes with M1A2SEP. With the new more modern FCS, new optronics, better thermal sights, the FBCB2 BMS system and FTL system, everything was improved significantly over what the older IVIS offered.

For example a such situation. Many claims that tanks with GLATGM of a 5km range have advantage of engagement range of 1 km over M1A2SEP but...

With the new optics with maximum 50x zoom, crew of such tank can detect and identify target over far greater distance than ever before and in any currently known tank. So if they know about target that is let's say 6km's away? TC can use FTL system, or far target locator. This means that he laze the target, computer calculates the distance between the tank and it's target, then use GPS to calculate exact coordinates of that target. The TC via FBCB2 system can send these coordinates to the nearest artillery unit and... do I really need to explain what hell is DPICM munitions bombardment on enemy tank unit?

This gives incredible boos in potential for units equiped with M1A2SEP's.

What about armor protection someone would ask? Well Americans because they had much greater real combat experience, are more keen to improve armor whenever they can. The newest US Armed Forces M1 Abrams tank variants, the M1A1SA, M1A1FEP and M1A2SEP had the newest, most improved to this date armor package. I'am not even sure if this is the well known 3rd generation special armor package fielded with first M1A2SEP in 1999.

By reading some documents, my conclusion is that the newest armor package is something new, and besides improving front protection, there is also significant improvement in side protection.

That's enough for now I think. But gives good idea about what advantages American tanks have currently over their analogs all over the world.

You, as always underestimated Leo2A6 About FCS As I remember Leo2A6 achive better result durin greek tank trial test then M1A2...so be cerfull about "outdated FCS".
Because Americans had problems with ammunition. Ballistic data in vehicles FCS was different than ammunition sent for trails. Besides this You will messure FCS effectiveness by one single trail? AFAIK the difference in hit percentege was insignificant.

By pure advancement American FCS is better and gives more capabilities.

About Altay - this tank about turret just coppy Leo-2 turret desine. It's amoust the same. Hull ammo is not not so bad idea:


For the one side hull ammo store is short target and covered by frontal armour and side skirts but for the other hands - In Leo2 all ammo is placed on one side and driver on second so angle are better then in that case. IMHO it slighty sefer, but its not so bad in Altay. This tank have more from Leo-2 then from K-2... Interesting how taken Leo-2A4 had influence on Altay program. Turret is just copied.
Well good patterns alwyes will be copied.
What? I do not see any similarities in Altay turret to Leopard 2 turret. Altay turret is more based on K2 and M1 than Leopard 2. On graphics it is clearly visible that sights are completely behind armor and through turret roof. Just like in K2 and M1. I suspect Turkish designers are fully aware of these "good patterns" in Leopard 2 turret design.

The only similarities between Leopard 2 and Altay is powerpack and hull ammo placement pattern.
 
Last edited:

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
@Damian
Because Americans had problems with ammunition. Ballistic data in vehicles FCS was different than ammunition sent for trails.
Look - how always it's simple - during CAT CR sucks and Brits had said "Oh, sorry ammo faild and we have anty-ergonomic tank". Ok, maybe. After that we have greek tank trials - CR2 sucks. Again _ "Oh we are verry sory, but our ammo wasn't brillant in fact so...". This is about Britta whit CR. And how about M1A2? Again - tank wasnt so good as Leclerc and Leo-2 and old story return "oh its this therrible ammo". Yes both nation where idiots - tank test, bilinons $ in background and of course genius "forgot" about propper ammo! How its simple and obvious!
Sorry Damian - I don't buy this fairy tails. So only Frencht and Germans was able to takes good ammo whit their tanks? LOL. Just think how stupid explanation is that.

What? I do not see any similarities in Altay turret to Leopard 2 turret. Altay turret is more based on K2 and M1 than Leopard 2. On graphics it is clearly visible that sights are completely behind armor and through turret roof. Just like in K2 and M1. I suspect Turkish designers are fully aware of these "good patterns" in Leopard 2 turret design.
Im almoust sure that You are wrong. Just wait for better picture or photos :) And the sight looks more simmilar in placment ten you suppose, but as I said -wait for better photos. It will be suprise. And I will place Altay interior trret draw and Altay. It's almoust the same.
 

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
Look - how always it's simple - during CAT CR sucks and Brits had said "Oh, sorry ammo faild and we have anty-ergonomic tank". Ok, maybe. After that we have greek tank trials - CR2 sucks. Again _ "Oh we are verry sory, but our ammo wasn't brillant in fact so...". This is about Britta whit CR. And how about M1A2? Again - tank wasnt so good as Leclerc and Leo-2 and old story return "oh its this therrible ammo". Yes both nation where idiots - tank test, bilinons $ in background and of course genius "forgot" about propper ammo! How its simple and obvious!
Sorry Damian - I don't buy this fairy tails. So only Frencht and Germans was able to takes good ammo whit their tanks? LOL. Just think how stupid explanation is that.
And I do not understand Your love for Germans... You are Pole or who? German?

Besides this. Yes British had problems with Challenger 1 during CAT, tank had poor ergonomics and outdated FCS. During trails in Greece British had problems with wrong ammunition sent, it was ammunition for L11 gun not L30 used in CR2 + CIV for TC in Challenger 2 with only passive NV is a problem.

Americans had only problems with ammunition. Mistakes happens, and calling some nations stupid only because Your biased love towards a nation, that I remind You, tried to litteraly make our nation slaves and completely eradicate us, I don't buy Your arguments.

But of course You can belive in any fairy tale You fellas from that... country behind our western border tales You... You know my opinion, I won't change it.

Im almoust sure that You are wrong. Just wait for better picture or photos And the sight looks more simmilar in placment ten you suppose, but as I said -wait for better photos. It will be suprise. And I will place Altay interior trret draw and Altay. It's almoust the same.
This won't be the first time You will be wrong... My advise friend, start to be more interested in non German developments. They are far more interesting and better, and not every nation needs to copy flawed designs from this... country (tfu!).
 

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
@UP
You are Pole or who? German?
Well when we lose the fact that my grand grand mother was from Herne (~1904) and half family from France (Lilie and Carvin) (1912-1946), then Im Pole :) Ot typical polish family histories when one grandfather during the Greate War hunts British ships in Uboot Waffe ans second was defending Verdun. For the other hand in my family had been person whit Victorias Cross for prepering Overlord (military maps and others), and Katyń Soviets genocide vitcims. But what was Your question? About who I'm? :)

and calling some nations stupid
It was irony. Of course that they are not idiots, but this explanetion is extremly stupid. Only Russian calim "Yes we faild". But Britts whit their absurd national pround (I have brother in law from GB...) and faith in tehir own infallibility try to blame just everythink but not their belloved CR1 and CR2.
The same about USA. But what was funny - You are defending Abrams when it's rather difficult to do it. 400 hundret engines in fire "oh it's problem whit the crews not whit tank desine. Yes in proffesional army. TIS sucks? Oh it can be true, becouse one guy says that they was able to see some thank on the desert from bla bla bla , during CAT M1 had worse then leo2 scores about shooting fast tragets on 1500-2000range? It's not so important. Lack of PERI analog in M1? TK panoramic sight is not so important becouse bla bla bla. C'mon Damian You are from USA? :p
I will be even say that yu can see a blade of grass in Leopard-2 but You can't see beam in Abrams.

Of course this pper is whitout anger or smth. Its again whit irony, but in friendly way.
 

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
It was irony. Of course that they are not idiots, but this explanetion is extremly stupid. Only Russian calim "Yes we faild". But Britts whit their absurd national pround (I have brother in law from GB...) and faith in tehir own infallibility try to blame just everythink but not their belloved CR1 and CR2.
The same about USA. But what was funny - You are defending Abrams when it's rather difficult to do it. 400 hundret engines in fire "oh it's problem whit the crews not whit tank desine. Yes in proffesional army. TIS sucks? Oh it can be true, becouse one guy says that they was able to see some thank on the desert from bla bla bla , during CAT M1 had worse then leo2 scores about shooting fast tragets on 1500-2000range? It's not so important. Lack of PERI analog in M1? TK panoramic sight is not so important becouse bla bla bla. C'mon Damian You are from USA?
I will be even say that yu can see a blade of grass in Leopard-2 but You can't see beam in Abrams.

Of course this pper is whitout anger or smth. Its again whit irony, but in friendly way.
Yeah we know this... if Germans says something then it's must be true, when any other nations says something then this is fairy tale... :dude:
 

Akim

New Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10,353
Likes
8,645
Country flag
@Akim, I have question, can You tanslate this what is in table here:
http://s019.radikal.ru/i617/1207/ab/a052eeb313b1.jpg
??
For me only important think is what is in table - what colour (light, medium, dark colour) means?
Honestly I understood this table not very much. Pmaitra right translate text of chart, but I do not understand what criteria the vertical diagram of military technological level of domestic and foreign tanks? If to bring similar tables over, then it is necessary to divide them on all categories, and to give general charts in the end. And then there are doubts.
 

methos

New Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Messages
799
Likes
304
Country flag
I completely not understand why Leopard 2A6E/HEL should be better with outdated FCS,
Outdated FCS? I don't have an exact date of introduction for the M1A2 SEP, but SteelBeast claims that it was in 1995 - which would mean that SEP and 2A5 came out the same year. The Leopard 2A6 FCS, even though based on the Leopard 2A4 FCS has undergone quite a lot of changes to the ballistic computer (for firing the newer ammunition, woking with the new gun and replaced components) and the sights. Even the stabilization system was replaced (EWNA instead of WNA-H22).
According to the Swedish data sheet about the 120 mm Rh 120 L/44 as used in the Strv 122, the EMES-12 received a new zoom stage for observing (i.e. 4x and 12 x instead of 12 x on the Leopard 2A4). The Peri-17A2 is in no regards worse than the American CITV... it has one digital zoom stage less, but has also an optical channel. Only the gunner's thermal sight is outdated, but this allowed greater zoom stages and a higher image quality than the contemporary thermal sight used in M1 and M1A1 - it was top-notch back then and does work absolutely perfectly for the combat ranges expected in Europe - if you don't want to invade some desert country in Asia or Africa, then the EMES-15 works perfectly for European countries.

I really do not see why the FCS should be outdated and why the M1A2 SEP should have a vastly superior FCS. If the FCS of the M1A2 SEP is superior to the Leopard 2A6EX's, then only in some minor points.
I think both have their advantages; e.g. the commander in the M1A2 SEP has a further digital zoom stage, but the commander of a Leopard 2A6 has also an optical channel - if you are in a country where two fractions with the same type of tanks fight against each other, then as commander of the a M1A2 SEP you will only see two identical thermal signatures. If you are in a Leopard 2A5/6, you can see the different camouflage patterns to see which tank should be engaged.

older armor protection,
Aha? Maybe older than the M1A2 SEP v.2, but the Leopard 2A5/6 armour is from the same generation as the original M1A2 SEP. However the age of the armour is not necessarily the deciding factor, The Leopard 2 has less internal volume, less frontal profile and less side armour, while the turret of a Leopard 2A6 has the same combat weight as the turret of a M1A2 SEP -> the Leopard 2's weight (and protection) is far more focused at the front. So if the U.S. would have managed to significantly increase the mass efficiency and the thickness efficiency, then I can say that M1A2 SEP is better protected. However various papers show that by using new, more efficient components alone the increase of efficiency is not very big if they already used good materials. I don't think it is reasonable to say that because the armour is more modern, the M1A2 SEP v.2 has to be better protected, when having less armour mass and less working thickness at the front.
The Leopard 2A6EX (Leopardo 2E, Leopard 2A6HEL, Strv 122) all have thicker hull and roof armour than the M1A2. Unluckily the delegations of the LEOBEN countries decided to drop this features out of the Mannheimer configuration, a decission I really cannot understand.

comparable mobility
Comparable by means of speed and ground pressure. That's nice but there are quite a few other factors which cannot be ignored, unless you are the United States and have the largest military force and defense budget in the world.
These factors are among others fuel consumption and time required for maintance - factors in which the M1 series lack behind many other designs.

Because Americans had problems with ammunition. Ballistic data in vehicles FCS was different than ammunition sent for trails. Besides this You will messure FCS effectiveness by one single trail? AFAIK the difference in hit percentege was insignificant.
Curiosly Brittons (and iirc. also btvt.narod.ru) are claiming that the U.S. found out that their ammunition did not fit to their FCS, then shipped working ammunition from Egypt and delayed the whole contests by 2-3 days. For ammunition not fitting to the FCS the results of the U.S. were far too good.

Besides this. Yes British had problems with Challenger 1 during CAT, tank had poor ergonomics and outdated FCS. During trails in Greece British had problems with wrong ammunition sent, it was ammunition for L11 gun not L30 used in CR2 + CIV for TC in Challenger 2 with only passive NV is a problem.
Are you sure? I was told in another forum that the ammunition was for the Challenger 2, but just was stored too long (e.g. it exceeded it's shell life). They would have been really stupid if they took the ammunition for the L11, esp. because their is only one type of APFSDS for the L11, which can easily distinguished by it's shape from APFSDS for the L30 gun.
 
Last edited:

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
Outdated FCS? I don't have an exact date of introduction for the M1A2 SEP, but SteelBeast claims that it was in 1995 - which would mean that SEP and 2A5 came out the same year.
So their claims are completely wrong. M1A2SEP was fielded in v1 variant in 1999. M1A2SEP v2 had more improvements to it's FCS. And currently whole M1A2SEP fleet is made from v2 versions that were fielded around 2010.

I recommend to use US sources that are far more accurate than biased and far from truth european sources.

The Leopard 2A6 FCS, even though based on the Leopard 2A4 FCS has undergone quite a lot of changes to the ballistic computer (for firing the newer ammunition, woking with the new gun and replaced components) and the sights. Even the stabilization system was replaced (EWNA instead of WNA-H22).
According to the Swedish data sheet about the 120 mm Rh 120 L/44 as used in the Strv 122, the EMES-12 received a new zoom stage for observing (i.e. 4x and 12 x instead of 12 x on the Leopard 2A4).
If You call this major modernization... then I really not know what to think. Don't know how this is made in Leopard 2, but in M1 if You have new ammunition, the only thing changed in FCS is ammunition ballistic data memory card.

The Peri-17A2 is in no regards worse than the American CITV... it has one digital zoom stage less, but has also an optical channel.
Day channel is not nececary for CITV, 2nd generation FLIR gives very good quality image. Besides this CITV is part of system, not just a commander periscope with thermal camera. I know that

Only the gunner's thermal sight is outdated, but this allowed greater zoom stages and a higher image quality than the contemporary thermal sight used in M1 and M1A1 - it was top-notch back then and does work absolutely perfectly for the combat ranges expected in Europe - if you don't want to invade some desert country in Asia or Africa, then the EMES-15 works perfectly for European countries.
I completely not understand mentality of Germans. Instead of making progress, finding the best solution, they seems to be happy with outdated sighting system. Tank need to be well prepared to fight in all conditions. Even in Afghanistan, sigthing system in M1 series gives better results because even as a stationary outpost, tank can detect, identify and eventually engage targets like groups of insurgents. So better sighting system is allways better.

I really do not see why the FCS should be outdated and why the M1A2 SEP should have a vastly superior FCS. If the FCS of the M1A2 SEP is superior to the Leopard 2A6EX's, then only in some minor points.
I think both have their advantages; e.g. the commander in the M1A2 SEP has a further digital zoom stage, but the commander of a Leopard 2A6 has also an optical channel - if you are in a country where two fractions with the same type of tanks fight against each other, then as commander of the a M1A2 SEP you will only see two identical thermal signatures. If you are in a Leopard 2A5/6, you can see the different camouflage patterns to see which tank should be engaged.
Leopard 2A6EX is non existing, it was technology demonstrator, nothing more.

As for targets identification, Americans do not need normal day light target identification. They have CIP's and FBCB2/BFT system, so commander of each vehicle, can check position of other friendly and detected and marked enemy vehicles on map that shows also his own position.

Aha? Maybe older than the M1A2 SEP v.2, but the Leopard 2A5/6 armour is from the same generation as the original M1A2 SEP. However the age of the armour is not necessarily the deciding factor, The Leopard 2 has less internal volume, less frontal profile and less side armour, while the turret of a Leopard 2A6 has the same combat weight as the turret of a M1A2 SEP -> the Leopard 2's weight (and protection) is far more focused at the front. So if the U.S. would have managed to significantly increase the mass efficiency and the thickness efficiency, then I can say that M1A2 SEP is better protected. However various papers show that by using new, more efficient components alone the increase of efficiency is not very big if they already used good materials. I don't think it is reasonable to say that because the armour is more modern, the M1A2 SEP v.2 has to be better protected, when having less armour mass and less working thickness at the front.
The Leopard 2A6EX (Leopardo 2E, Leopard 2A6HEL, Strv 122) all have thicker hull and roof armour than the M1A2. Unluckily the delegations of the LEOBEN countries decided to drop this features out of the Mannheimer configuration, a decission I really cannot understand.
What makes You think that M1A2SEP is not better protected?

In this document it is clearly said that recently M1A1SA and M1A2SEP recived frontal and side armor upgrades. How do You know what is empty and combat weight of these tanks right now? I don't and Americans seems to not be very keen to share such data for these newest variants.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/wsh2012/22.pdf

Besides this why Americans can't use more weight efficent protection? because they are not Germans? Because only Germans have right solutions?

Not to mention that saying that Leopard 2EX or upgraded ones have thicker hull armor is pure manipulation and lie. Lower Front Hull is thicker in M1 series, while the glacis plate have variable thickness, ~50mm over driver station, and ~80mm over rest of glacis plate surface. I proved this with photos. Besides this, frontal hull fuel tanks also acts as additional spaced protection for hull front.

Comparable by means of speed and ground pressure. That's nice but there are quite a few other factors which cannot be ignored, unless you are the United States and have the largest military force and defense budget in the world.
These factors are among others fuel consumption and time required for maintance - factors in which the M1 series lack behind many other designs.
Gas Turbine engines can use different liquids as a fuel, only if these liquid can be spread in combustion chamber and will burn but still, JP8, diesel fuel, gas, alcohol, everything can be used by such engine. It is still a gas guzzler but it works. In fact the problem of gas turbines is that work for more fuel efficent engines of that type were cancelled. It is a pitty because Gas Turbine have much more interesting capabilities and future perspectives than a Diesel.

Curiosly Brittons (and iirc. also btvt.narod.ru) are claiming that the U.S. found out that their ammunition did not fit to their FCS, then shipped working ammunition from Egypt and delayed the whole contests by 2-3 days. For ammunition not fitting to the FCS the results of the U.S. were far too good.
I suspect it is because that idiotic approach of European countries to DU, Americans probably took their own DU ammo, and had ballistic data for WHA ammo, so they needed to take KEW WHA APFSDS from Egypt.

Are you sure? I was told in another forum that the ammunition was for the Challenger 2, but just was stored too long (e.g. it exceeded it's shell life). They would have been really stupid if they took the ammunition for the L11, esp. because their is only one type of APFSDS for the L11, which can easily distinguished by it's shape from APFSDS for the L30 gun.
There was problem with propelant charges AFAIK. They took propelant for L11 gun and ammunition for L30. Someone ----ed up preparations for trails. It was not fault of FCS that is preatty good one in CR2.
 

Akim

New Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
10,353
Likes
8,645
Country flag
I completely not understand mentality of Germans. Instead of making progress, finding the best solution, they seems to be happy with outdated sighting system. Tank need to be well prepared to fight in all conditions. Even in Afghanistan, sigthing system in M1 series gives better results because even as a stationary outpost, tank can detect, identify and eventually engage targets like groups of insurgents. So better sighting system is allways better.
It is not mentality of the Germans - it is simply human approach. Tanks create mainly for that locality what is in a country. French with Leclerc had similar problems. Therefore can the USA test the systems as well as in Аrtiс, so to the desert of Nevada. In the USSR also there was such approach. That is why in Uzbekistan stand on the armament of T-64B and T-80B.
 

Bhadra

New Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,756
Country flag
Akim and Damain,

Tanks to be used for detection of insurgents is a height of technology and a good joke.....
 

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
It is not mentality of the Germans - it is simply human approach. Tanks create mainly for that locality what is in a country. French with Leclerc had similar problems. Therefore can the USA test the systems as well as in Аrtiс, so to the desert of Nevada. In the USSR also there was such approach. That is why in Uzbekistan stand on the armament of T-64B and T-80B.
IMHO every tank designer should go to as good design with minimum of flaws or weaknesses as possible. To be honest I never saw anything of such approach in any German tank. They were or unreliable machines, or unnececary big and heavy, or have so idiotic design solutions like main sight placement in Leopard 2.

Can You understand that? Even Morozov when he was designing T-64, he knew perfectly that sights placement in frontal armor openings, was weakning front protection, even if it was simpler. This is why T-64 and later all Soviet tanks had sights going through the turret roof, not front armor.

Or ammunition storage, if Germans new that solution during Leopard 2 R&D phase, why they didn't isolate whole or most of ammunition like Americans did. This is important for crew survivability. If crew knows that they have more chances to survive, they morale will be higher and they will be able to more efficent fight.

I do not understand this, I don't understand why such decisions were made with Leopard 2 and I completely not understand why people prize such design with so many wrong design solutions without any purpose... I think it is still that myth that Germans are making "great" armored fighting vehicles.

While in fact when we look at history of AFV's development, the best and most ambitious, most promising designs were allways made in Soviet Union and USA.

Akim and Damain,

Tanks to be used for detection of insurgents is a height of technology and a good joke.....
And in my opinion Your poor knowledge and opinions are a good joke.

Tanks are incredibly usefull in anti insurgency operations. This is what makes them so universal and great combat platform. They can engage many different targets. They can quietly sit in outpost and quitly observe not by hours, but days or weeks even. With their great optics and weaponary, a single tank sitting on some hightened spot, can be used like a big precise sniper rifle that can engage targets further than 2,500m.

You know what maybe read about what real soldiers fighting in Afghanistan thinks about tanks. Canadians, Danish and American soldiers are very happy with them.

Damn even our soldiers when they were in iraq know how usefull tanks are in urban anti insurgency operations, when nothing else, no artillery, neither air forces, but American tanks rescued Polish soldiers that were under siege in City Hall of one of Iraqi cities.

So before You say something is a joke, read something about real war, not what some people sitting thousands of kilometers from war, things how it should be done. :/
 
Last edited:

Articles

Top