LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

Dark Sorrow

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We don't even produce passive components like resistors, capacitors and inductors for use in commercial and defense applications. Japanese and Koreans dominate this sector. Chinese haven't been successful at beating them.
We do produce these passive components locally though not to the scale of Japanese, Koreans, Chinese or Taiwanese. Who says Chinese haven't been successful at beating them. Chinese are successfully taking on these so called established vendors. This section is highly unorganized hence you won't get names of all players. As a matter of fact anything assembled in PRC uses their local passive components by default unless specifically instructed not to.
In PCB's Chinese dominate it. I am not sure where we are in this area. There are certain PCB makers in India, whether they are fully self reliant is something I could not ascertain. And I don't have to tell about chips. We don't even manufacture small Micro chips.
We are more or less self-sufficient in this field though nowadays people tend to outsource production to PRC. Though almost all raw materials and machinery are imported from PRC>
Our electronics and semiconductor sector alone requires 1 lakh crore infusion every year until 2040 if we have to become self reliant.
The point is who will we sell to? Unless that question is answered how much our government dances the project will not have tangible result no matter how much money you spend.
We have the talent who are unfortunately working for big American companies who in turn sell the tech developed by Indians to us at marked up price. AMD, Qualcomm, Intel, Texas Instruments, Analog devices derive lot of R & D from India. AMD and Qualcomm has more open positions to fill in India next only to USA. We need a dedicated city like Shenzhen for hardware. PLI schemes are not going to cut it. It is unfortunate we are not thinking of building an entire city just for this sectors alone given the importance it has to national security. We need to get at least a mature node 14nm fab going to make FPGA's, Microcontrollers and specialized chips in Embedded applications. With our volatile democracy I highly doubt it will happen anytime soon.
You are highly overestimating the importance of Indians. Most Indians do design validation, tetsing and software development. Core R&D is done in US and they outsource laborious non-critical jobs to country like India.

Do people actually know advantages of smaller nodes or they just type whatever node size that would like India to have for semi-conductor fabrication?
14nm is a bleeding edge technology that will be very difficult to acquire.
Getting 65nm is also suffice, just because some company is using 7nm or 5 nm doesn't mean do the same.
 

Dark Sorrow

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You are comparing apple with oranges here, a bvr races towards its target, and its range is defined as the distance covered by it until the motor burns out in a certain flight path configuration. It still needs guidance from fighter radar to close in before it can turn on its own radar and track the target itself for the kill. That is why the range of radar should outmatch the bvr missile range to effectively guide it to its target.
Most of times aircraft have their radar turned of as any emission will give away their position.
AWACS generally identify and track targets and provide firing solutions in modern net-centric warfare.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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All lca mk1 will be upgraded to mk1a in due time. So there will only be two radars to work with elta on some and uttam on most .
Can actually design software around uttam, and include elta integration only on things like astra and other air to air missiles. Elta aircraft can be dedicated to point defence(intended role of tejas), rest can work as ground attack/point interceptor as needed.
 

MonaLazy

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Are you sure about this because It says nothing about any aerodynamic improvements on mk1a.
Not sure now.

ADA studied a bulged canopy to improve area ruling even further. The combined effect was 6 percent lower supersonic drag, which in turn led to a 20 percent improvement in transonic acceleration and 2 percent improvement in maximum speed.
I think the above was destined for canardless Mk2 that was initially proposed- then canards were added:

The canards also help smooth out the discontinuity in area ruling curve ahead of the wing that exists for Mk1 (see Area curve in Figure 11). By employing a canard and fatter spine, the MWF no longer needs as bulged a canopy as recommended by earlier studies. While those studies predicted a 6 percent supersonic wave drag resulting in a 20 percent improvement in transonic acceleration and 2 percent improvement in maximum speed, the MWF is expected to have even greater transonic and supersonic performance given a near perfect area ruling through the changes such as the addition of a nose plug, elongated and fattened front fuselage, optimized canopy shape and rear fuselage. The canards lower the trim drag across the flight envelope, further enhancing overall aircraft performance. As a matter of fact, the MWF is expected to have a top speed of Mach 1.8 in level flight with two CCMs, which is a 12.5 percent increase over its existing performance.

FOC onwards Tejas has a thicker canopy to better survive a bird hit- but there is nothing to confirm the bulged canopy optimization for initial Mk2 made the cut for Mk1A.



 

Rajaraja Chola

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FA 50 is the most matured and established platform out of all the competiti. It shares most of the weaponry with FA-18s that are already in service with Malaysia. So it will be the easiest to integrate. Its most likely MRO facilites for FA 50 can be operated by Malaysians themselves which is big positive since Mig 29s and Hawks of Malaysian airforce suffer heavily due to lack of service. Also KAI is rhe only one that can deliver aircrafts from 2024-25. All in all you get a matured and reliable aircraft. M346 has similar positives with only later delivery time.

Mig 35s are unlikely because of CAASTA and MH-18 shootdown. So its a big political risk. Tejas Mk1A as of now is on paper and its important components and armament comes from Israel which Malaysia doesn't even recognize so politically its unlikely to go ahead. Add to that first fully certified Mk1A will only fly in 2025 and even if HAL offers to replace Israeli components with French or American ones testing and certification for such MK1As won't be completed till 2027 atleast. Also HAL will have to set up MRO facilities in Malaysia which will be time consuming and given HALs horrible record with it, Ecuadorian Dhruv saga, Tejas is just not a reliable bet.
And how will FA50 replace Israeli Radar? FA50 is a trainer with some fighting capabilities. Yes it can integrate some F18 weapons.
Tejas can integrate their Mig29 weapons. Plus both of them come with the same engine. Same radar. But it doesn't even have an BVR.

FA50 can still win not due to its superiority but due to its experience in dealing with foreign clients. And that is the only advantage.
 

Concard

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We do produce these passive components locally though not to the scale of Japanese, Koreans, Chinese or Taiwanese. Who says Chinese haven't been successful at beating them. Chinese are successfully taking on these so called established vendors. This section is highly unorganized hence you won't get names of all players. As a matter of fact anything assembled in PRC uses their local passive components by default unless specifically instructed not to.
In the passive components sector Japanese dominate. Chinese haven't been able to rise the quality of their components compared to Japanese or Koreans. I agree what is assembled in PRC always try to use their own local passive components but not with every foreign company who has a plant in PRC.
We are more or less self-sufficient in this field though nowadays people tend to outsource production to PRC. Though almost all raw materials and machinery are imported from PRC>
But why to outsource? Why can't we at least make PCB's and mother boards which goes into Smartphones and PCs?
The point is who will we sell to? Unless that question is answered how much our government dances the project will not have tangible result no matter how much money you spend.
It doesn't necessarily have to be invested in production. We can invest it in R & D by creating a research institute on the lines of Fraunhofer institute in Germany. So all the knowledge gained in premier institutes in India is put to use to solve real world problems and other practical applications which in turn reduces our dependence on foreign technology.
You are highly overestimating the importance of Indians. Most Indians do design validation, tetsing and software development. Core R&D is done in US and they outsource laborious non-critical jobs to country like India.
This was true 15 years ago not anymore. Today R & D centers in India play a crucial role if not a critical role for most American companies. I am not saying we do all the work. But we are definitely an important part of their overall R & D strategy. I have some contacts in industry. Trust me India is not just used for mundane jobs in Technology like before.
Do people actually know advantages of smaller nodes or they just type whatever node size that would like India to have for semi-conductor fabrication?
14nm is a bleeding edge technology that will be very difficult to acquire.
Getting 65nm is also suffice, just because some company is using 7nm or 5 nm doesn't mean do the same.
14nm was a bleeding edge for CPU's. Today it is 5nm. With 14nm they use DUV. With 7nm they use EUV. 14nm is still more than enough for FPGA's, Microcontrollers and specialized chips. ASML is prohibited to sell EUV machines to China. However they are not prohibited to sell DUV machines to China. 65nm node won't cost much. With $10 billion incentive GoI is proposing we better go for 14nm.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Its simple Tejas is a unstable platform whereas junk Fighter is a 3rd generation stable platform.
What it has to do with stable or unstable platform. These days the AC with best EW, radar, missiles win. The days of dogfights will be even less going forward
 

fire starter

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What it has to do with stable or unstable platform. These days the AC with best EW, radar, missiles win. The days of dogfights will be even less going forward
Why not, you See design is evolving with every generation if radar and EW are enough then why would any one spend huge amount of money and time on designing.
 

Whitecollar

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Why not, you See design is evolving with every generation if radar and EW are enough then why would any one spend huge amount of money and time on designing.
True. Design evolves to cancel out existing limitations in a fighter gen's abilities. It's design alone that makes F-22 such a behemoth in both BVR and dogfights.
Designing planes intentionally unstable makes the fly by wire much more dynamic in manuvering.
 

Super Flanker

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Is that an R-73?
IMG_20211213_024643.jpg

Yes mate. You are right, it's an R-73 Missile on the Left Wing of the Tejas.
In the photo The R-73 Missile is present on one of the Pylons of the left Wing of the Aircraft. This doesn't seem to be an Operational R-73 Missile to me though.
It looks to be a training Variant of the R-73 Missile from my Personal Perspective though.
k73.jpg

(Picture of an R-73 for Better Referance)
 

Dark Sorrow

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In the passive components sector Japanese dominate. Chinese haven't been able to rise the quality of their components compared to Japanese or Koreans. I agree what is assembled in PRC always try to use their own local passive components but not with every foreign company who has a plant in PRC.
Chinese or Indian passive components are equally good. They just don't have enough market reach and are undocumented but they are highly economical. They tend to lack popularity.
But why to outsource? Why can't we at least make PCB's and mother boards which goes into Smartphones and PCs?
Because they are economical, they provide more options (even for small quantity) and most important their quality of work is much better than Indian counterparts.
It doesn't necessarily have to be invested in production. We can invest it in R & D by creating a research institute on the lines of Fraunhofer institute in Germany. So all the knowledge gained in premier institutes in India is put to use to solve real world problems and other practical applications which in turn reduces our dependence on foreign technology.
Modi is trying to get fabs established in India. We already have design houses that provide IPs what we lack is fabs and dedicated semiconductor manufacturers. Our research institute do have semiconductor know-how yet we are not able to establish our-self in semiconductor domain.
Their is a big difference in having know-how and able to commercially establish our-self.
This was true 15 years ago not anymore. Today R & D centers in India play a crucial role if not a critical role for most American companies. I am not saying we do all the work. But we are definitely an important part of their overall R & D strategy. I have some contacts in industry. Trust me India is not just used for mundane jobs in Technology like before.
Don't get blind-sided by patriotism. The only reason American companies have so-called R&D center in India because it is economical and not because they are mission critical for their success.
All labor intensive jobs are transferred to India like validation (design/layout), software and driver development, etc. Very minor adjustment are done in India to an established deign. You many have contacts in that industry but I work in same industry.
14nm was a bleeding edge for CPU's. Today it is 5nm. With 14nm they use DUV. With 7nm they use EUV. 14nm is still more than enough for FPGA's, Microcontrollers and specialized chips. ASML is prohibited to sell EUV machines to China. However they are not prohibited to sell DUV machines to China. 65nm node won't cost much. With $10 billion incentive GoI is proposing we better go for 14nm.
From the above statement I can assume you are not from semiconductor or electronics domain.
Most generally micro-controllers and ASIC (not refereed as specialized chips) use 40 nm to 65 nm process as this process is are matured enough to ensure reliability, is economical (commercial viable) and stable.
Nowadays ASICs are moving towards 32 nm for general availability but this will also take time.

Devices tend to use 2 or more process technologies in same die depending on what is to be built. Memories tend to have smaller process node as they tend to dense (more transistors). For Analog or RF domain tend to different process technology.

14 nm process will be waste of money. Even if someone sells us this technology what will be do with it. What will you make with it.

You just don't move to a smaller process node just because it sounds fancy. You move to a smaller node because your semiconductor device needs it. We are currently not making any device where the MOS transistor layout is dense enough to warrant such smaller bleeding edge process node, which will bring problems of its own.

The reason modern CPUs use small process node because they are extremely dense (Ryzen has up-to 32 MB of cache which requires a lot of registers and decapitate a lot of heat), their instruction set is complex and provide a lot of interfaces.. Same goes for FPGA. Unless you have extremely dense their is no need for such bleed edge process nodes. 40 nm process node is also good enough to begin with.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Its simple Tejas is a unstable platform whereas junk Fighter is a 3rd generation stable platform.
Are we comparing aerodynamics or the entire system.
Block 3 will have KLJ-7A Active electronically scanned array radar, will use more composites, will have better ECM, ECCM compared to previous version and an an enhanced electronic warfare management system as per their sources.

With Tejas M1A we shall have Uttam AESA and DRDO/DARE Unified EW suite.


Lets see how things play out once both aircraft are in serial production.

We should be objective in comparison and have no prejudice.
 

Rajaraja Chola

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Why not, you See design is evolving with every generation if radar and EW are enough then why would any one spend huge amount of money and time on designing.
And what has that to do with calling JF block 3 junk. It comes with aesa and ew suite. And definitely not junk. It might be inferior to Tejas in design. But for it's purpose it's ok.

Confidence is fine. Overconfidence is disaster.
 

thefewthefearless

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And what has that to do with calling JF block 3 junk. It comes with aesa and ew suite. And definitely not junk. It might be inferior to Tejas in design. But for it's purpose it's ok.

Confidence is fine. Overconfidence is disaster.
i think people are confused between block 1 and 2 which were junk. block 3 for it's price and features, it's fine.
 

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