LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

Flying Dagger

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GE already has a presence in India. Why doesn't it add to it, create a new division and manufacture the engines instead of partnering with HAL? As in the past, all this ToT + partnership with a PSU will just make the engines prohibitively expensive.
Not true ..... In long-term they come out to be cheap. Also we need that know how and only HAL can handle such projects in India for now.
 

Arjun Mk1A

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This TOT thing may help to produce GE-414 engine at reduced price for the upcoming MK-2, AMCA and TEDBF. But it will be same scenario where Hot section will be shielded and we will do the cold section for that.

We are doing this for long time now.
 

johnj

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GE already has a presence in India. Why doesn't it add to it, create a new division and manufacture the engines instead of partnering with HAL? As in the past, all this ToT + partnership with a PSU will just make the engines prohibitively expensive.
To avoid sanctions, fines & ban and don't want to lose billions worth indian civilian markets.
 

silverghost

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Not true ..... In long-term they come out to be cheap. Also we need that know how and only HAL can handle such projects in India for now.
What Cheap? Compare the cost of SU 30 MKI with SU 30 SM. I don't want to digress but there are other examples too. The PSUs are nothing but pits that use a ToT opportunity to make money on top of imported technology by the side in the name of indigenization. Other than the ability to assemble , overhaul & source components from the local supply chain they don't learn anything new.
Take the example of AL31FP, we have a ToT & have been manufacturing it for close to 1-1/2 decades. Has the ToT helped HAL come up with an advanced version of this engine? No. Russia in the meanwhile designed & developed the more advanced AL41 F and has offered it to us for the super Sukhoi program. We have of course rejected it, because HAL is worried about what will happen to the line that it has established to manufacture AL 31FP. The same is going to happen in the case of GE F414 - if GE does it in its own division we will get newer & improved versions of the engine, if HAL does it, we will be stuck in time & wait for the next ToT agreement.
 

silverghost

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To avoid sanctions, fines & ban and don't want to lose billions worth indian civilian markets.
Let's assume that HAL has the ToT & say GE pulls out of India plus it is not allowed to sell components to HAL because of sanctions. Will HAL be able to manufacture the F414 engine? Forget that HAL has a ToT for Al 31 F for about 1-1/2 decades, are we able to manufacture AL 31F without importing components from Russia?
 

SwordOfDarkness

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Let's assume that HAL has the ToT & say GE pulls out of India plus it is not allowed to sell components to HAL because of sanctions. Will HAL be able to manufacture the F414 engine?
Depends on contract.

Forget that HAL has a ToT for Al 31 F for about 1-1/2 decades, are we able to manufacture AL 31F without importing components from Russia?
Yes. For a very long time now. Both hot and cold sections.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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I think we import raw material/ alloy for hot section
Yes, we import raw materials. Though I know that MIDHANI has replaced some imported alloys with their alloys, so IG if situation got really bad, we might be able to do for most parts. Like I said, depends on contract and how much info we get.
 

johnj

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Let's assume that HAL has the ToT & say GE pulls out of India plus it is not allowed to sell components to HAL because of sanctions. Will HAL be able to manufacture the F414 engine? Forget that HAL has a ToT for Al 31 F for about 1-1/2 decades, are we able to manufacture AL 31F without importing components from Russia?
You got all wrong- here I'm talking about GoI sanctioning Boeing, not about US sanctions. Boeing will lose 1000s of order of jets from India and cause its share to crash, and give Airbus a huge advantage. You can read lca tejas mk2 for further info. I already posted reasons why Boeing giving tot to HAL in mk2 thread, its accourdance to the deal signed by GoI & Boeing. Also Boeing need US Congress permission & US gov special permission to sell F/A-18E/F SH block2/3.
 

silverghost

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You got all wrong- here I'm talking about GoI sanctioning Boeing, not about US sanctions. Boeing will lose 1000s of order of jets from India and cause its share to crash, and give Airbus a huge advantage. You can read lca tejas mk2 for further info. I already posted reasons why Boeing giving tot to HAL in mk2 thread, its accourdance to the deal signed by GoI & Boeing. Also Boeing need US Congress permission & US gov special permission to sell F/A-18E/F SH block2/3.
Let's assume that GE gives ToT to India & India sanctions GE then do you think HAL will be able to manufacture F414 with the ToT alone & without importing components through GE? Like I said in my reply a few posts earlier we have ToT for Russian engines for Sukhoi AL31F, and we still import raw materials alloy for the hot section.
Likewise, GE will give us ToT for the engine but not for the alloy which is crucial to manufacturing the hot section components. For other commodity components, HAL can either manufacture itself or get it manufactured by some vendor based in India or abroad.
 

skunk works

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This is what i talked about, how do we save the technology as we start exporting defense products.
I hope BEL follows the global standards of building a model for export that is of significantly less capability (monkey model) than the home version.
It guards against two things:
1. Leakage of technology, like this case is unavoidable.
2. If ever your own equipment is turned against you, your still hold the better cards.

I am sure India has not been giving away the family silver.
 

skunk works

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You got all wrong- here I'm talking about GoI sanctioning Boeing, not about US sanctions. Boeing will lose 1000s of order of jets from India and cause its share to crash, and give Airbus a huge advantage. You can read lca tejas mk2 for further info. I already posted reasons why Boeing giving tot to HAL in mk2 thread, its accourdance to the deal signed by GoI & Boeing. Also Boeing need US Congress permission & US gov special permission to sell F/A-18E/F SH block2/3.
India needs Boeing more than Boeing needs India.
 

skunk works

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GE already has a presence in India. Why doesn't it add to it, create a new division and manufacture the engines instead of partnering with HAL? As in the past, all this ToT + partnership with a PSU will just make the engines prohibitively expensive.
Because In India mil tech is a jobs program and had nothing to do with efficiency.
 

no smoking

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Yes, we import raw materials. Though I know that MIDHANI has replaced some imported alloys with their alloys, so IG if situation got really bad, we might be able to do for most parts. Like I said, depends on contract and how much info we get.
Not that simple. The jet engine is one of the most complex machine in the world. Engine design, materials are only a small part of the it. Processing techs, tools, assistant chemical, electronic equipment, test machines, etc, etc, are all important. The whole supply chain covers almost every industrial department. The only way to test if you can produce these foreign engines completely by yourselves is to setup a whole production line from scratch with your own factory or other countries' suppliers, even every single screw. Before that, any promise of 100% indigenous production is cheap talk.
 

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