LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[johnj]

Let's assume that GE gives ToT to India & India sanctions GE then do you think HAL will be able to manufacture F414 with the ToT alone & without importing components through GE? Like I said in my reply a few posts earlier we have ToT for Russian engines for Sukhoi AL31F, and we still import raw materials alloy for the hot section.
Likewise, GE will give us ToT for the engine but not for the alloy which is crucial to manufacturing the hot section components. For other commodity components, HAL can either manufacture itself or get it manufactured by some vendor based in India or abroad.

Yor are totally wrong man.
For ex- you want to buy a property, and you paid advance to the seller with a deal, and also paid advance money to a construction firm. Now you are doubting with decision by considering natural disasters like volcano eruption, collision of moon with earth etc, my advice- don't overthink with non sense.
Note- its less than a billion $ deal and you are talking about hot section and french snecma asking about 5~6 bil $ for jv.
Once again- ADA/GoI and GE signed a deal a decade ago to supply and local manufacture ge414 engine.
Now tejas mk2 entered construction phase- Boeing asking US gov approval, a normal procedure.
For your info- this deal is better than previous one, ie ge404, where we stuck with working ones, but in this case we can mro, buy and store critical parts etc like turkey did with their f16s when they brought s400, plus create jobs & bring high end manufacturing/assembling tech.
Its a billion $ deal including 99 engines and you are talking about hot section, I'm sorry,becz I'm clueless and I don't know what to say. Its like assembling tech with limited manufacturing tech like made in india iphone/smart phone but better.
For Hot section tech, consider AMCA engine JV.

 

[johnj]

India needs Boeing more than Boeing needs India.

My mistake, not boeing but GE. I made mistake - replaced GE with Boeing.
Back to your post- No, its reverse- Boeing needs India more than India needs Boeing. India can buy Airbus planes. Russia, China etc also R&D, produce civilian jets. Just imagine India carriers ditching 500 Boeing planes with Airbus. Same goes with GE, even P&W try to take advantage if GE gets banned in India.
I read some articles like Canada cancelled some Boeing plane due Bombardier issue and IA/Al prefer Airbus[EU] more than Boeing[US].

 

[NutCracker]

NLCA LANDING INS VIKRANT.. FOOTAGE

 

[no smoking]

Back to your post- No, its reverse- Boeing needs India more than India needs Boeing. India can buy Airbus planes.

Airbus has too much US technologies integrated, you can buy more airbus planes but you simply can't ban boeing completely. Otherwise the Americans will let you know who is the boss.

Russia, China etc also R&D, produce civilian jets.

Forget them, they are decades behind.

Just imagine India carriers ditching 500 Boeing planes with Airbus.

That depends what is the reason. If it is based on quality issue like Boeing 737 max, Americans will be ok with it. If it is for political or other non-commercial reason, you won't get Airbus either. Even Chinese doesn't dare to ban Boeing.

Same goes with GE, even P&W try to take advantage if GE gets banned in India.

Still depends on what REASON!

I read some articles like Canada cancelled some Boeing plane due Bombardier issue and IA/Al prefer Airbus[EU] more than Boeing[US].

Cancelling order is a normal commercial decision which happens a lot every year around the world, banning a company's product is a different level thing.

 

[johnj]

Airbus has too much US technologies integrated, you can buy more airbus planes but you simply can't ban boeing completely. Otherwise the Americans will let you know who is the boss.



Forget them, they are decades behind.



That depends what is the reason. If it is based on quality issue like Boeing 737 max, Americans will be ok with it. If it is for political or other non-commercial reason, you won't get Airbus either. Even Chinese doesn't dare to ban Boeing.



Still depends on what REASON!



Cancelling order is a normal commercial decision which happens a lot every year around the world, banning a company's product is a different level thing.

You totally confused, for your info no one talking about ban, but alternatives.
Also for your info we brought mig21, mig29, rafale, s400 and manufacturing ak203 etc, and we are not slaves of US.
We can buy whatever we want, and don't give any special consideration to US.

 

[AnantS]

You totally confused, for your info no one talking about ban, but alternatives.
Also for your info we brought mig21, mig29, rafale, s400 and manufacturing ak203 etc, and we are not slaves of US.
We can buy whatever we want, and don't give any special consideration to US.

umm not that easy on LCA. Replacing GE with any engine - shall need a redesign effort

 

[johnj]

umm not that easy on LCA. Replacing GE with any engine - shall need a redesign effort

yes, but not impossible.
But lca mk2 need a engine right ? if ge can't deliver according to deal, ada can consider ei200 or new rfi like mmrca. GE fully capable delivering what they promised,so no worries, GE manufacturing ge404 & ge414 in SK. GE also established ge 404 MRO facility with HAL in India.

 

[AnantS]

yes, but not impossible.
But lca mk2 need a engine right ? if ge can't deliver according to deal, ada can consider ei200 or new rfi like mmrca. GE fully capable delivering what they promised,so no worries, GE manufacturing ge404 & ge414 in SK. GE also established ge 404 MRO facility with HAL in India.

everything can be done as you say, but do you realise cost overheads. IAF would simply retire/reject the type rather have money sunk on redesign or any delay . But I understand your concern.

 

[silverghost]

Yor are totally wrong man.
For ex- you want to buy a property, and you paid advance to the seller with a deal, and also paid advance money to a construction firm. Now you are doubting with decision by considering natural disasters like volcano eruption, collision of moon with earth etc, my advice- don't overthink with non sense.
Note- its less than a billion $ deal and you are talking about hot section and french snecma asking about 5~6 bil $ for jv.
Once again- ADA/GoI and GE signed a deal a decade ago to supply and local manufacture ge414 engine.
Now tejas mk2 entered construction phase- Boeing asking US gov approval, a normal procedure.
For your info- this deal is better than previous one, ie ge404, where we stuck with working ones, but in this case we can mro, buy and store critical parts etc like turkey did with their f16s when they brought s400, plus create jobs & bring high end manufacturing/assembling tech.
Its a billion $ deal including 99 engines and you are talking about hot section, I'm sorry,becz I'm clueless and I don't know what to say. Its like assembling tech with limited manufacturing tech like made in india iphone/smart phone but better.
For Hot section tech, consider AMCA engine JV.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. We will see what happens.

 

[johnj]

I have no idea what you are trying to say. We will see what happens.

In simple, 1. you can't buy 100% 4.5th gen fighter engine tech for 400mil USD
2. stop worrying about sanctions becz sanctions only stay for less than a decade, and IAF having russian & french jets in its inventory.
Final note- GE already started supply of ge414 engines and 18 engines comes readymade and rest will be manufactured by HAL once mk2 starts lsp/mass production in 2030.
Hot section- do you really thing any country will share that tech for half a billion USD ?

 

[johnj]

everything can be done as you say, but do you realise cost overheads. IAF would simply retire/reject the type rather have money sunk on redesign or any delay . But I understand your concern.

Cost is negligible if you consider a war defect. Redesign take time but its a major necessity and IAF loves it if engine is UK/EU origin and if not- cannibalism & su75 or su57 and no more ADA jets- becz they all use GE[US] I'm having zero concern but disappointed by not choosing ej200 & delay in 110kn engine jv.

 

[silverghost]

In simple, 1. you can't buy 100% 4.5th gen fighter engine tech for 400mil USD
2. stop worrying about sanctions becz sanctions only stay for less than a decade, and IAF having russian & french jets in its inventory.
Final note- GE already started supply of ge414 engines and 18 engines comes readymade and rest will be manufactured by HAL once mk2 starts lsp/mass production in 2030.
Hot section- do you really thing any country will share that tech for half a billion USD ?

I think you have me confused with somebody else. My point was very different. I wanted GE India to open up a division to manufacture engines instead of HAL. This way, we get the engines manufactured in India without paying ToT costs. Second, we get the latest technological version of the GE 414. Finally, GE being a private-sector undertaking is nimbler, faster & more efficient than HAL. There was an argument posed saying that what if sanctions are posed - my answer is if sanctions are posed even then you won't be able to manufacture the engine because you have ToT. You still have to look towards GE to provide the raw materials for key components for instance the hot section.

 

[johnj]

I think you have me confused with somebody else. My point was very different. I wanted GE India to open up a division to manufacture engines instead of HAL. This way, we get the engines manufactured in India without paying ToT costs. Second, we get the latest technological version of the GE 414. Finally, GE being a private-sector undertaking is nimbler, faster & more efficient than HAL. There was an argument posed saying that what if sanctions are posed - my answer is if sanctions are posed even then you won't be able to manufacture the engine because you have ToT. You still have to look towards GE to provide the raw materials for key components for instance the hot section.

First part- not happening for military but may consider assembling for civilian aircrafts if the order is greater than 2000 engines.
Second part- assembling/manufacturing part yes- hal can't produce engines, but hal can mro engines better than zero tech and help to keep jets flying till sanctions is over.
If you consider sanctions and your desire/idea of GE manufacturing - they shut down plant, which cause higher cannibalism and majority of fighter fleet becomes useless. That is why no one is considering GE plant in india, its useless & a disaster- no techtransfer, once plant goes shutdown majority of workers became jobless and experience also not going to give any advantage and age becomes a major issues. We already gone through such issue in past in different fields that is why hal assembling engines much better than ge indian assembling plant.Its due to consideration of sanctions, GoI demanded tot for HAL to assemble engines.
1.GE never bring 100% tech to manufacture hot section in India.
2.GE can only supply tech cleared by US gov and its always inferior to US ones and only assemble old tech product.
3.We get zero tech and they are not so dump to give us latest tech for free. no know how & no know why.
4.''GE being a private-sector undertaking is nimbler, faster & more efficient than HAL'' - agreed but HAL manufacture entire aircraft unlike GE and its is nimbler, faster & more efficient than of GoI & rest of GoI sectors.
Q- From where you get the idea about any company/firm establish high tech military manufacturing outside their country for free ? and provide free tech ?

we get the engines manufactured in India without paying ToT costs. Second, we get the latest technological version of the GE 414.

We need to pay all cost for setting up plant, training human resources, and for tech. we also needed to pay for r&d of latest technological version of the GE 414. At the end we get nothing and lose billions of $.
One of the reason for 110kn engine jv.
======================================================================
Its doesn't matter what you think- HAL assembling/manufacturing GE414 is one of best decision taken by GoI and with a lots advantages [nearly zero disadvantages] till 110kn engine mass production.
[you can correct me if i'm wrong, also you can google f16bk60, added cost of offsects and cancelation of offset policy]

 

[SUPERPOWER]

Good Animation with explanation by AITelly..

 

[Roland55]

NLCA LANDING INS VIKRANT.. FOOTAGE

I know the N-LCA thread is more appropriate, but have you seen that both prototypes landed (NP-1/NP-2) on Vikrant. Thats very impressive.

On a completely different topic...any news regarding ASTRA on Tejas?

 

[silverghost]

First part- not happening for military but may consider assembling for civilian aircrafts if the order is greater than 2000 engines.
Second part- assembling/manufacturing part yes- hal can't produce engines, but hal can mro engines better than zero tech and help to keep jets flying till sanctions is over.
If you consider sanctions and your desire/idea of GE manufacturing - they shut down plant, which cause higher cannibalism and majority of fighter fleet becomes useless. That is why no one is considering GE plant in india, its useless & a disaster- no techtransfer, once plant goes shutdown majority of workers became jobless and experience also not going to give any advantage and age becomes a major issues. We already gone through such issue in past in different fields that is why hal assembling engines much better than ge indian assembling plant.Its due to consideration of sanctions, GoI demanded tot for HAL to assemble engines.
1.GE never bring 100% tech to manufacture hot section in India.
2.GE can only supply tech cleared by US gov and its always inferior to US ones and only assemble old tech product.
3.We get zero tech and they are not so dump to give us latest tech for free. no know how & no know why.
4.''GE being a private-sector undertaking is nimbler, faster & more efficient than HAL'' - agreed but HAL manufacture entire aircraft unlike GE and its is nimbler, faster & more efficient than of GoI & rest of GoI sectors.
Q- From where you get the idea about any company/firm establish high tech military manufacturing outside their country for free ? and provide free tech ?

We need to pay all cost for setting up plant, training human resources, and for tech. we also needed to pay for r&d of latest technological version of the GE 414. At the end we get nothing and lose billions of $.
One of the reason for 110kn engine jv.
======================================================================
Its doesn't matter what you think- HAL assembling/manufacturing GE414 is one of best decision taken by GoI and with a lots advantages [nearly zero disadvantages] till 110kn engine mass production.
[you can correct me if i'm wrong, also you can google f16bk60, added cost of offsects and cancelation of offset policy]

First off, it's a viewpoint. I don't know about you but I am not in a position of power to have an effect on these decisions. I would still like GE the company to set up a division to manufacture the engines. HAL operates like a typical PSU, and moves at a snail's pace. Right now we are buying the engines directly from GE, manufacturing it here in India will be a good next step. It will develop local vendors & create expertise in building engine components in India plus won't add to the cost of the Engine.

 

[johnj]

First off, it's a viewpoint

I know.

I don't know about you but I am not in a position of power to have an effect on these decisions.

Same here and I'm not making any viewpoints but supporting GoI decisions.

I would still like GE the company to set up a division to manufacture the engines.

No happening becz it offer zero benefits to both sides. fyi ge & hal setup mro facility with is better.

HAL operates like a typical PSU, and moves at a snail's pace.

Becz IAS officers works slower than snail. ADA case is worse compared to HAL

Right now we are buying the engines directly from GE, manufacturing it here in India will be a good next step. It will develop local vendors & create expertise in building engine components in India plus won't add to the cost of the Engine.

Becz lca mk2 still in papers. manufacturing only happens once ccs clear initial production for iaf ie after 2030.

 

[Flying Dagger]

What Cheap? Compare the cost of SU 30 MKI with SU 30 SM. I don't want to digress but there are other examples too. The PSUs are nothing but pits that use a ToT opportunity to make money on top of imported technology by the side in the name of indigenization. Other than the ability to assemble , overhaul & source components from the local supply chain they don't learn anything new.
Take the example of AL31FP, we have a ToT & have been manufacturing it for close to 1-1/2 decades. Has the ToT helped HAL come up with an advanced version of this engine? No. Russia in the meanwhile designed & developed the more advanced AL41 F and has offered it to us for the super Sukhoi program. We have of course rejected it, because HAL is worried about what will happen to the line that it has established to manufacture AL 31FP. The same is going to happen in the case of GE F414 - if GE does it in its own division we will get newer & improved versions of the engine, if HAL does it, we will be stuck in time & wait for the next ToT agreement.

TOT doesn't mean they give you everything.

We can literally copy Sukhoi from ground up now , we sell spares and parts to countries who operate Sukhoi because we build them inhouse. When you see Indian defence export a huge portion is those spare being sold to Indonesia etc.

The money goes to Indian defence psu creating jobs in India and a large pool of engineers. Before Sukhoi we didn't had experience with canards and it was Sukhoi which convinces and gave confidence to ADA to go for Tejas mk2 with canards.

the cost isn't high either we were building them for 37-38 million a piece in 2010 around. Later Russia increased the cost of raw materials etc.

we have created a huge infrastructure for Sukhoi which is part of that cost and can be used to maintain upgrade them .

We aren't going the china way because we don't want to otherwise we can easily do the same.

but we can overhaul the engine repair it in India due to the experience we got. Overall savings worth billions of dollars during the lifetime use.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Let's assume that GE gives ToT to India & India sanctions GE then do you think HAL will be able to manufacture F414 with the ToT alone & without importing components through GE? Like I said in my reply a few posts earlier we have ToT for Russian engines for Sukhoi AL31F, and we still import raw materials alloy for the hot section.
Likewise, GE will give us ToT for the engine but not for the alloy which is crucial to manufacturing the hot section components. For other commodity components, HAL can either manufacture itself or get it manufactured by some vendor based in India or abroad.

Depends on the level of TOT.


Look at Bofors/Dhanush . We banned them but use the TOT to build them inhouse. Nothing stops that.

If hal can learn from it good for them.


And we import raw materials because Russia put that in contract . Also Titanium sheet/bars etc that we get from them isn't available a plenty everywhere. If we decide to go china way nothing stops us.

 

[NutCracker]

The Grey capes are coming.. The Grey capes are coming..




@Gyyan posting here too since comments not allowed on that thread.