LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Spitfire9]

Depends on the purpose. Generally, carriers with ski jump ramp are used primarily for fleet defense, as lack of catapult limits the maximum load aircraft can carry. And for fleet defense, Tejas is perfectly adequate.

Not querying its utility but it begs the question: why did IN say it was unsuitable if pretty much the same aircraft is now suitable? Perhaps the 29K has fallen from grace (accidents? low rates of serviceability?)

 

[Bleh]

I understand why NLCA would be useful even if on paper it is the world's least capable carrier fighter in terms of load/range.

Can fly with 6 AAMs & full internal fuel (landing tested upto 10ton)... With aerial refueling probe the NP-5 should be able to takeoff with empty droptanks & fill them in air.

 

[rone]

Can fly with 6 AAMs & full internal fuel (landing tested upto 10ton)... With aerial refueling probe the NP-5 should be able to takeoff with empty droptanks & fill them in air.

Actually I have thought, what if the lsp3 in building jig we saw was navy LCA like prototype 3 ? Because 10 FOC delivered other 3 in85% finished 3 in various stage, so if we count the building jigs there are 7 stations, so rest 4 may building LCA trainer variants or 3 LCA tranier and one LCA Navy improved prototype for IAC 1

 

[Bleh]

Actually I have thought, what if the lsp3 in building jig we saw was navy LCA like prototype 3 ? Because 10 FOC delivered other 3 in85% finished 3 in various stage, so if we count the building jigs there are 7 stations, so rest 4 may building LCA trainer variants or 3 LCA tranier and one LCA Navy improved prototype for IAC 1

No idea... But many models have different nomenclature, so not very likely.

 

[Ghost hale]

AFAIK the TDs and PVs used older versions of F404, it was only NP and most SPs that used the new IN20 version.

Whats the overall point??? and incomplete info is dangerous. 140 F404IN20 + how many older F404?? Number crunching never works without whole info.

 

[Picard]

Not querying its utility but it begs the question: why did IN say it was unsuitable if pretty much the same aircraft is now suitable? Perhaps the 29K has fallen from grace (accidents? low rates of serviceability?)

Could be anything. Technical reassessment, political reassessment, strategic reorientation, industry lobbying, new bribes... I don't follow Indian politics or defence industry closely enough to make an educated guess.

 

[skdking]

I have been following the discussions here avidly. I have a fair amount of experience in DRDO, HAL and PSUs.

I find that we are going through a phase where HAL, ADA and ADE can do no wrong.

This seemingly irrational exuberance and confidence in the capabilities of these behemoths is not based on long term performance. This has happened earlier too.

The shoddy working environment in these organisations always lets down Services. All high hopes were always belied till now. Bouquets are always followed by brickbats. And, vice versa.

I have seen no significant changes in these organisations in last few years that suggest to me that these organisations will do now what they could not do in the past. Nothing significant at all.

The solution is either part or full privatisation and listing on stock market or introduction of another PSU in this field that will introduce competition. The monopoly always introduces huge inefficiencies.

However, I defer to the wisdom of the people here who follow these programmes very closely. They must have seen something that I have missed completely.

Thank you.

 

[ash2win]

Can fly with 6 AAMs & full internal fuel (landing tested upto 10ton)... With aerial refueling probe the NP-5 should be able to takeoff with empty droptanks & fill them in air.

where is NP-5?

 

[Bleh]

where is NP-5?

Last I heard in June NP-5 was nearing completion.. Now that prototype is supposed to be standardised for any potential IN order, as well as go to trials for the US tender. So in all likelihood it will take a lot of time to fine-tune before 1st flight.

Already the platform has a lot of changes like refueling-probe, full spectrum of weaponary & sensors/ew integrated & finalised training setups for atleast 3 different jets to possibly a modified landing gear (not the same on NP-1 & 2 either I think).
Didn't see that in any recent video of HAL hangers tho.

 

[Lost user]

Last I heard in June NP-5 was nearing completion.. Now that prototype is supposed to be standardised for any potential IN order, as well as go to trials for the US tender. So in all likelihood it will take a lot of time to fine-tune before 1st flight.

Already the platform has a lot of changes like refueling-probe, full spectrum of weaponary & sensors/ew integrated & finalised training setups for atleast 3 different jets to possibly a modified landing gear (not the same on NP-1 & 2 either I think).
Didn't see that in any recent video of HAL hangers tho.

What about NP-3 and NP-4 ? So, there have been 3 Naval prototypes after NP-1 and NP-2 ..wow

 

[Bleh]

What about NP-3 and NP-4 ?

Cancelled I think... Those were supposed to be NLCA Mark2.

AFAIK there are only 2 tejas naval prototypes

 

[skdking]

Thank you so much for sharing this. Indian mindset is like a ping pong ball stuck in a bowl where the centre point is socialism and the world outside the edge of the ball is the free market. They may swing around to try and get to the edge and then past it, but then we roll back to the centre always.

I have worked in HAL for a limited duration and then in private firms. Trust me, the professionalism in shampoo manufacturers is better than these guys. The only way ahead is the privatisation of these white elephants- OFB, HAL, BDL, or else we can just keep making youtube videos and fan pages of the product pipeline.

Very well said. These PSUs are a cesspool of mediocrity and Chalta Hai attitude.

The euphoria among the people who follow Def prodn in India post the LCA order amazes me.

They know nothing about the inner working of HAL if they think that HAL has somehow metamorphosed into a sleek well oiled ruthless machine in the last three-four years.

HAL is still a creaking groaning bloated rusting piece of machinery that can not change even if it wanted to.

Thus we should take their grandiose announcements and futuristic plans with a large pinch of salt.

 

[Spitfire9]

I have worked in HAL for a limited duration and then in private firms. Trust me, the professionalism in shampoo manufacturers is better than these guys. The only way ahead is the privatisation of these white elephants- OFB, HAL, BDL, or else we can just keep making youtube videos and fan pages of the product pipeline.

I thought I would never hear an Indian puncture the pretence that the Tejas project was run in a competent and professional manner! How can things improve if nobody admits that improvement in their performance is badly needed?

 

[Covfefe]

Very well said. These PSUs are a cesspool of mediocrity and Chalta Hai attitude.

The euphoria among the people who follow Def prodn in India post the LCA order amazes me.

They know nothing about the inner working of HAL if they think that HAL has somehow metamorphosed into a sleek well oiled ruthless machine in the last three-four years.

HAL is still a creaking groaning bloated rusting piece of machinery that can not change even if it wanted to.

Thus we should take their grandiose announcements and futuristic plans with a large pinch of salt.

Exactly, there is a myriad of problems which people don't understand. Everything cannot be solved by willpower alone, you gotta make the structural changes and introduce the driving forces that bring results.

Finances- It is an asset-heavy organization with very poor capital flow and extremely restrictive capital raising capacity. Government itself does not fund it enough and the company can't raise capital on its own. Also, there are swathes of unused assets spread across India which can be monetized to give them capital to work with.

Operations- Lesser said the better. Now the situation has improved, but earlier a mechanic's shop had more clean shopfloor than HAL's. Read here Most of the employees are career HAL guys who have neither interest nor the know how of improving operations.

HR Management- They hire freshies on the basis of an extremely theoretical examination and the ones who don't get into oil marketing companies (iocl, ongc etc) come to HAL due to shitty pay in the beginning. No concept of talent management or focused lateral hiring from the industry. Recently they had published an opening for GM Operations i guess and the mandate was to have an experience in CPSEs. I mean how does running refinery in IOCL is similar to making planes in HAL. Why not someone from Boeing, LM or such?

Marketing and Business Development- Earlier they had no concept of these things and they had the Govt as the caretaker which gets them screwdrivergiri contracts (read ToT and license manufacturing at freaking higher costs), and the Services as the captive customers. During recent times, due to the pressure from the Govt. to export stuff, they have started to study the international markets and engaging with foreign clients to explore opportunities.

Legal Framework- Broad sweeping laws like Prevention of Corruption Act and politically motivated parliamentary committes like the Committee in Public Undertakings. Govt auditors work as if they are on a venegeance mission against the one being audited and show the potential opportunities as an actual loss to the exchequer. Such frameworks only ensure that the 'good guys' stay shit-scared and the bad guys don't give a flying F to these annyway.

Import Lobby- These vultures are well known- within the forces, the bureaucracy, and the political leadership.

You just cannot 'improve' these things in an institution. Without the driving forces in place, it is foolhardy to expect results.

 

[Covfefe]

I thought I would never hear an Indian puncture the pretence that the Tejas project was run in a competent and professional manner! How can things improve if nobody admits that improvement in their performance is badly needed?

A lot of Indians say that. But popular politics has its own demerits. They will branded as the "henchmen of the corporate" (suit buit ki sarkaar, HAL is "strategic asset" and shitfuckery of the form)

 

[Spitfire9]

A lot of Indians say that. But popular politics has its own demerits. They will branded as the "henchmen of the corporate" (suit buit ki sarkaar, HAL is "strategic asset" and shitfuckery of the form)

More like a strategic liability HAL, in the sense that a different team of people (a non-PSU company with a different culture) would be expected to have done far better than HAL has done. I say 'a strategic liability' because the opportunity to succeed in supplying IAF with Indian kit in a timely manner is missed time and again (aided and abetted by GOI and IAF incompetence) and the opportunity for India to gain a foothold in the world fast jet market keeps being pushed further and further into the future.

I just hope that if Mk1A does get an order or two, those are executed professionally and India does not do what Russia did when trying to break into the world civil aviation market with the Sukhoi Superjet - demonstrate that you do not want to buy airliners from Russia.

 

[abingdonboy]

Hasn't had 1st flight yet, I heard in June it was nearing completion.

Other than refueling probe there might be some changes on that. Probably will get an AESA & EW system integrated from start, plus might get the full MFDs of LIFT (it'll go to Murica for trials too).

Umm what? Is this confirmed?

 

[abingdonboy]

I don't know if someone already posted this here before or not, new picture of LCA sp 26
View attachment 106008
The funny part is so many discussions going on whether it is 6 th FOC or 10 th, so I remember sp19 picture from past
View attachment 106000

Here we can see new nomenclature methodology adopted after sp17, so am sure sp26 is 10th FOC
Another interesting question is if it is 10 th FOC where is rest of 6 , to be honest any one who visited hal Bangalore knows hal LCA division don't have very big storage hanger for LCA, the current one they have already occupied by LSP and prototype LCA the most available space of ready to fly focs will be maximum 3 or 4,so is IAF inducted LCA FOC aircarfts under secrecy?

This has already been cleared up.

it’s the 6th FOC single seater

IAF SP-22=HAL SP-26


let’s not get into tin foil territory and start talking about secret inductions.

 

[abingdonboy]

Not querying its utility but it begs the question: why did IN say it was unsuitable if pretty much the same aircraft is now suitable? Perhaps the 29K has fallen from grace (accidents? low rates of serviceability?)

They said it was unsuitable in the fighter role as pretty much all fighter aircraft will be in a STOBAR role.

but the subject at hand is about inducing a squadron for carrier qualification/LIFT role where it would be suited and would take a lot of load from the troubled 29K fleet.

 

[abingdonboy]

I have been following the discussions here avidly. I have a fair amount of experience in DRDO, HAL and PSUs.

I find that we are going through a phase where HAL, ADA and ADE can do no wrong.

This seemingly irrational exuberance and confidence in the capabilities of these behemoths is not based on long term performance. This has happened earlier too.

The shoddy working environment in these organisations always lets down Services. All high hopes were always belied till now. Bouquets are always followed by brickbats. And, vice versa.

I have seen no significant changes in these organisations in last few years that suggest to me that these organisations will do now what they could not do in the past. Nothing significant at all.

The solution is either part or full privatisation and listing on stock market or introduction of another PSU in this field that will introduce competition. The monopoly always introduces huge inefficiencies.

However, I defer to the wisdom of the people here who follow these programmes very closely. They must have seen something that I have missed completely.

Thank you.

As you yourself admit you don’t follow the projects closely enough so personally I feel that invalidates the rest of this post.

no one is saying they can do no wrong but they should be judged on their output and not legacy reputations, there’s an entire thread that runs into the 100s of pages on this forum that is covering the Indian projects being undertaken simultaneously and the scope/depth of this worth is FAR more than even 5 years ago so to pretend like nothing has changed is to deny reality.

+ HAL/OFB/PSUs/DRDO do not deserve to be conflated

DRDO is a premier R&D institution that itself is made up of 100s of facilities/labs with 1000s of projects under their ambit so again cannot be viewed as a monolith. Check DARPA- they are publicly owned also. The fact is for strategic R&D efforts it is very likely that a degree of state control will be warranted/needed and furthermore the dismal amount of R&D done by private companies in India points to the fact that that DRDO has a very necessary role for the foreseeable future.

HAL’s work speaks for itself, they’ve come leaps and bounds from even 15 years ago. Their work to create a private sector supplier ecosystem for themselves is particularly noteworthy and again a huge departure from previous periods. Perhaps the most significant change in their approach is offering PBLs with their products.

OFB is a joke of an organisation and doesn’t deserve to exist in any form.