LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[abingdonboy]

I thought I would never hear an Indian puncture the pretence that the Tejas project was run in a competent and professional manner! How can things improve if nobody admits that improvement in their performance is badly needed?

Clearly you have only started following these matters recently, in the 25+ years this project has been running >90% of the coverage towards it has been negative.

anyway extrapolating future success/failure based on past performance is rarely a useful analytical method when looking at entities with this degree of flux. The MK1A order is unprecedented in Indian aerospace/HAL’s history in scale and form. Let’s judge them based on how they deliver that, if they mess it up then they’ll deserve this criticism but to already be declaring them unfit is simply lazy.

+ let’s not pretend like this is unique to India/HAL- almost every single aerospace project (both civil and military) in recent times have encountered into time and budget overruns. V22/F35/B777X/SU-57 just off the top of my head and there are ongoing issues with many other recent products (787/F22/F35/737-Max8/A320 NEO)

 

[skdking]

As you yourself admit you don’t follow the projects closely enough so personally I feel that invalidates the rest of this post.

no one is saying they can do no wrong but they should be judged on their output and not legacy reputations, there’s an entire thread that runs into the 100s of pages on this forum that is covering the Indian projects being undertaken simultaneously and the scope/depth of this worth is FAR more than even 5 years ago so to pretend like nothing has changed is to deny reality.

+ HAL/OFB/PSUs/DRDO do not deserve to be conflated

DRDO is a premier R&D institution that itself is made up of 100s of facilities/labs with 1000s of projects under their ambit so again cannot be viewed as a monolith. Check DARPA- they are publicly owned also. The fact is for strategic R&D efforts it is very likely that a degree of state control will be warranted/needed and furthermore the dismal amount of R&D done by private companies in India points to the fact that that DRDO has a very necessary role for the foreseeable future.

HAL’s work speaks for itself, they’ve come leaps and bounds from even 15 years ago. There work to create a private sector supplier ecosystem for themselves is particularly noteworthy and again a huge departure from previous periods. Perhaps the most significant change in their approach is offering PBLs with their products.

OFB is a joke of an organisation and doesn’t deserve to exist in any form.

You do have a point.

Kindly do not misquote me, just to prove that point.

If someone thinks that HAL has suddenly undergone a transformation in the last few years to emerge as a better organisation, they are grossly mistaken. To pretend that things have changed significantly there is to deny reality. Even a shampoo factory in pvt sector has a better organisation and work culture.

DRDO is a premium organisation? It is good only for incremental changes in missile systems. It is an integrator at best. No R&D there. There is no other successful project.

Rest, you are wise. Pl look at the larger picture too.

 

[abingdonboy]

You do have a point.

Kindly do not misquote me, just to prove that point.

If someone thinks that HAL has suddenly undergone a transformation in the last few years to emerge as a better organisation, they are grossly mistaken. To pretend that things have changed significantly there is to deny reality. Even a shampoo factory in pvt sector has a better organisation and work culture.

DRDO is a premium organisation? It is good only for incremental changes in missile systems. It is an integrator at best. No R&D there. There is no other successful project.

Rest, you are wise. Pl look at the larger picture too.

I’ll judge HAL based on what they deliver.

their performance with the ALH has validated the notion that for series production with stable orders they can deliver. So I’ll wait to see how they perform with MK1A. Things like work culture etc are abstract and subjective, output is output.

the comments about DRDO are hilariously off the mark so I won’t bother engaging with that.

 

[Bleh]

Umm what? Is this confirmed?

Yes, atleast that's what i read (...ofcourse only if balls roll that far)

 

[abingdonboy]

Yes, atleast that's what i read (...ofcourse only if balls roll that far)

Was this from a IDRW type publication?

 

[Bleh]

DRDO is a premium organisation? It is good only for incremental changes in missile systems. It is an integrator at best. No R&D there. There is no other successful project.

Vai ye chutiyapa PSU thread me jake likho, somone might bother to correct it.. This is not the right place.

Was this from a IDRW type publication?

No I think.. I don't remember exactly, but most likely it was a quote of HAL Chairperson on some news article.

 

[Spitfire9]

+ let’s not pretend like this is unique to India/HAL- almost every single aerospace project (both civil and military) in recent times have encountered into time and budget overruns. V22/F35/B777X/SU-57 just off the top of my head and there are ongoing issues with many other recent products (787/F22/F35/737-Max8/A320 NEO)

Sure, some problems are normal... in development. What is not normal is producing a quarter to a half of the frames scheduled in the time allotted in a contract. For all I know subcontractors have been late in delivery but I do not read that. I do read that IAF was late in providing Tejas FOC requirements. I do read that having decided to order 80 or so Mk1A it took the best part of 5 years for GOI to do so. Whatever 'system' is used to approve, order and produce fast jets in India is sadly wanting.

India is no good at organising and producing fast jets, it seems. The 'system' needs to change for India to stop being no good and to switch to being good. It's quite possible to do that. I suggest India changes the way things have been done which have resulted in failure to get things done to doing things in a way where things do get done. Without having the guts to admit to shortcomings and DOING something to correct them the shortcomings can be expected to carry on and on and on.

PS I would love to see India becoming a success in this sector

 

[abingdonboy]

Sure, some problems are normal... in development. What is not normal is producing a quarter to a half of the frames scheduled in the time allotted in a contract. For all I know subcontractors have been late in delivery but I do not read that. I do read that IAF was late in providing Tejas FOC requirements. I do read that having decided to order 80 or so Mk1A it took the best part of 5 years for GOI to do so. Whatever 'system' is used to approve, order and produce fast jets in India is a sadly wanting.

India is no good at organising and producing fast jets, it seems. The 'system' needs to change for India to stop being no good and to switch to being good. It's quite possible to do that. I suggest India changes the way things have been done which have resulted in failure to get things done to doing things in a way where things do get done. Without having the guts to admit to shortcomings and DOING something to correct them the shortcomings can be expected to carry on and on and on.

PS I would love to see India becoming a success in this sector

That’s fine and all valid criticism, simply blaming HAL without giving context is just an incomplete and frankly lazy analysis.

Let’s see what happens, the biggest impediment to export sales is the GoI, they maintain an iron grip on Export licences and are particularly adverse to offensive military equipment leaving Indian shores (as they view Indian defence sales as a diplomatic not economic exercise) so I don’t expect much on this front, there’s a long list of top-end defence equipment india could sell but chooses not to so the entire Indian defence industry is purely aimed at the domestic sector and doesn’t look outwards.

 

[skdking]

I’ll judge HAL based on what they deliver.

their performance with the ALH has validated the notion that for series production with stable orders they can deliver. So I’ll wait to see how they perform with MK1A. Things like work culture etc are abstract and subjective, output is output.

the comments about DRDO are hilariously off the mark so I won’t bother engaging with that.

Peace to you too, biradar.

 

[Srinivas_K]

It indeed is a strategic liability. The 2019 Mirage 2000 crash was an indicator- the plane with a great record otherwise crashed during acceptance sortie after upgrade from HAL. Dhruv choppers too are not considered very trustworthy by the forces (they always use Mi-17s for VIP movement and never Dhruv or its variant). One of the major reasons for the delay in critical modernisation of the forces is the public sector defence enterprises. The budget just won't allow the modernisation and right-sizing of the forces as big as this while we are still dependent on imports.

Russians/ Americans/ Israelis/ French pitching their military hardware to us, is not their fault. Its our inability to take tough decisions and critical reforms.

Druv is been a trust worthy helicopter under Indian armed forces. The reason for not utilising in special operations is different requirements forces put forward.
The next generation helicopter from HAL I hope meets the criteria.

contrary to the discussions happening here which include some HAL employees. These days PSUs are only working on top level integrations. Rest of the technologies and platforms are designed and developed by corporate sector. This is one of the main reason why we are seeing many projects meeting the time lines.

If HAL wins the tender of Malaysian airforce , I am sure HAL will set up new production lines.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Looking forward to TEDBF which is a game changer for our aviation industry. This validates stealth, twin engine and network centric capabilities.

Good days ahead for Indian space and Aviation sector for sure.

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

Exactly, there is a myriad of problems which people don't understand. Everything cannot be solved by willpower alone, you gotta make the structural changes and introduce the driving forces that bring results.

Finances- It is an asset-heavy organization with very poor capital flow and extremely restrictive capital raising capacity. Government itself does not fund it enough and the company can't raise capital on its own. Also, there are swathes of unused assets spread across India which can be monetized to give them capital to work with.

Operations- Lesser said the better. Now the situation has improved, but earlier a mechanic's shop had more clean shopfloor than HAL's. Read here Most of the employees are career HAL guys who have neither interest nor the know how of improving operations.

HR Management- They hire freshies on the basis of an extremely theoretical examination and the ones who don't get into oil marketing companies (iocl, ongc etc) come to HAL due to shitty pay in the beginning. No concept of talent management or focused lateral hiring from the industry. Recently they had published an opening for GM Operations i guess and the mandate was to have an experience in CPSEs. I mean how does running refinery in IOCL is similar to making planes in HAL. Why not someone from Boeing, LM or such?

Marketing and Business Development- Earlier they had no concept of these things and they had the Govt as the caretaker which gets them screwdrivergiri contracts (read ToT and license manufacturing at freaking higher costs), and the Services as the captive customers. During recent times, due to the pressure from the Govt. to export stuff, they have started to study the international markets and engaging with foreign clients to explore opportunities.

Legal Framework- Broad sweeping laws like Prevention of Corruption Act and politically motivated parliamentary committes like the Committee in Public Undertakings. Govt auditors work as if they are on a venegeance mission against the one being audited and show the potential opportunities as an actual loss to the exchequer. Such frameworks only ensure that the 'good guys' stay shit-scared and the bad guys don't give a flying F to these annyway.

Import Lobby- These vultures are well known- within the forces, the bureaucracy, and the political leadership.

You just cannot 'improve' these things in an institution. Without the driving forces in place, it is foolhardy to expect results.

Actually I disagree. Willpower is needed to fix all the other elements. If you have no will, there is literally zero way.

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

 

[abingdonboy]

“The preliminary design review is over and so is the critical design review for several systems, including mission computer, digital map generator and digital flight control systems. We are integrating the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and the electronic warfare suite on the final operational clearance (FOC) version of the LCA. After it is proven there, we will integrate it on the final Mk-1A version,” the HAL chairman said.

So according to this some FOCs birds will be used to test MK1A equipment, apparently SP22(old 26) is one of the ones earmarked for this. Explains why it hasn’t been handed over but doubt HAL needs 6 FOC airframes for this role

 

[MirageBlue]

I don't know if someone already posted this here before or not, new picture of LCA sp 26
View attachment 106008
The funny part is so many discussions going on whether it is 6 th FOC or 10 th, so I remember sp19 picture from past
View attachment 106000

Here we can see new nomenclature methodology adopted after sp17, so am sure sp26 is 10th FOC
Another interesting question is if it is 10 th FOC where is rest of 6 , to be honest any one who visited hal Bangalore knows hal LCA division don't have very big storage hanger for LCA, the current one they have already occupied by LSP and prototype LCA the most available space of ready to fly focs will be maximum 3 or 4,so is IAF inducted LCA FOC aircarfts under secrecy?

Thanks to your research, it's clear that the fighter in which the VP sat was SP-26 and that was as per IAF numbering, not HAL numbering.

So it's confirmed that was the 10th FOC Tejas Mk1. That leaves 6 more single seaters to be fully assembled and then handed over to the IAF by March 2022. Seems like HAL is on track to meet it's target of handing over all 16 FOC single seaters to the IAF by March 2022.

As the HAL CMD mentioned, they are integrating AESA and EW on the FOC fighters before doing it on the Mk1As. Which might be the reason why they are being held at HAL facilities rather than being handed over to the IAF.

 

[MirageBlue]

So according to this some FOCs birds will be used to test MK1A equipment, apparently SP22(old 26) is one of the ones earmarked for this. Explains why it hasn’t been handed over but doubt HAL needs 6 FOC airframes for this role

It may not be just to test them out..it could well be that the FOC jets may see the Elta 2032 replaced with the Elta 2052 and provision to carry the Elta 8222-WB SPJ as well.

If that is the case, the delay in handing them over is absolutely worth it, since the FOC jets will then be almost at Tejas M1kA level sensor and EW wise.

Sadly we don't have good journos that have access to HAL and could write on this.

 

[BON PLAN]

Dude LCA can carry a 1.5 tonn brahmos ng. U Chinese are even more stupid than pakis, that's why stop eating shit.
View attachment 105851

If it's true (and why not?), Brahmos NG can be adapted to Rafale like SCALP : 2 or 3 by bird. Good news !

 

[Haldilal]

If it's true (and why not?), Brahmos NG can be adapted to Rafale like SCALP : 2 or 3 by bird. Good news !

Ya'll Nibbiars The French will not allow.

 

[BON PLAN]

Could be anything. Technical reassessment, political reassessment, strategic reorientation, industry lobbying, new bribes... I don't follow Indian politics or defence industry closely enough to make an educated guess.

Are you the "famous" Picard ?

 

[BON PLAN]

Ya'll Nibbiars The French will not allow.

Why? This is an indian missile, with just a link to the weapons system other than radar.
Same than to integrate SPICE guided bomb already accepted.