LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Spitfire9]

And that's the reason for our enormous hate for previous government , they just freezed everything , under 1999 -2004 government of atal ji , we saw tehas fly and it was all set to be inducted but , government change froze it , it gained momentum under late manohar parrikar , a person who can't be hated , he gave us rafale deal and tejas roadblock clearance .

Wait for tejas saga to gain momentum.

Lift
Mk1a
Mk 2

Wait? I've got used to doing that in the 10-15 years since I first took an interest in the Tejas project. Perhaps, in spite of the disabling GOI/PSU setup and plodding bureaucracy, things will start happening more quickly with other projects but I'm not too optimistic that the players concerned have heard of this expression often ascribed to Einstein:

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

If the way things are done is not changed after results of a project have not been good (massive delays in Tejas), why should one expect a different result from the next project unless one is insane?

 

[omaebakabaka]

As Indian hawk said, those 21 are best of the bunch, so they must be in good enough condition to be upgraded.

Also, they aren't meant for 30-40 years of service, they will phase out like other UPGs in early 2040s, either by MWF or AMCA

Those Mig 29 are just for filling up our squadron numbers so quality isn't the main parameter but how fast they are available and how Cheep they are.

I am not sure going by IAF record, we don't retire anything that fast as we don't plan that well based on looking back at recent decades, if leftists come to power again then nothing is guaranteed in terms of keeping ahead and staying ahead....agreed IAF got to do what they have to do to address immediate threats.

 

[Lonewolf]

Wait? I've got used to doing that in the 10-15 years since I first took an interest in the Tejas project. Perhaps, in spite of the disabling GOI/PSU setup and plodding bureaucracy, things will start happening more quickly with other projects. I'm not too optimistic that the players concerned have heard of this expression often ascribed to Einstein:



If the way things are done is not changed after results of a project have not been good (massive delays in Tejas), why should one expect a different result from the next project?

Things have changed , red tapeism has reduced ,what you see is crram on cake , hal don't manufacturer most of components like earlier it's Private players and they are being improved , research is not just now on drdo , and allowance for rnd has increased , academia are developing tech now , a airborne eots is developed but under wraps but iit bombay , psu are going to be reformed or privatized , hal has improved performance and will most probably corporatized soon and if not will be reformed , all incompetency will be weeded out .

It's really painful to see tejas past but future is brighter , things are better , if not satisfied dm me , i wil share some piece of info

 

[daya]

Things have changed , red tapeism has reduced ,what you see is crram on cake , hal don't manufacturer most of components like earlier it's Private players and they are being improved , research is not just now on drdo , and allowance for rnd has increased , academia are developing tech now , a airborne eots is developed but under wraps but iit bombay , psu are going to be reformed or privatized , hal has improved performance and will most probably corporatized soon and if not will be reformed , all incompetency will be weeded out .

It's really painful to see tejas past but future is brighter , things are better , if not satisfied dm me , i wil share some piece of info

But autocracy and egoism is on its zenith, specially in Babus...

 

[MirageBlue]

I was arguing that on another site with quite a few Indian contributors.

If you're referring to Keypubs, then yes I remember you being one of the regular non Indian posters on the IAF and Tejas threads.

 

[Spitfire9]

If you're referring to Keypubs, then yes I remember you being one of the regular non Indian posters on the IAF and Tejas threads.

Correct. Funny thing, I just glanced at that site and found this (edited here):

Interview with HAL CMD R. Madhvan published 22nd March 2019:

The proposal for 83 LCA is likely to be converted into a firm order very soon. To augment our production, a parallel production line may be developed at AMD Nashik and work shall commence there after completion of Su-30 MKI aircraft if sufficient order for LCA is placed with HAL.

Source: http://www.businessworld.in/article/...2-2018-165552/

I wrote:

It sounds to me that a delay in Mk1A production is on the cards - things don't get made if a decision to make them is not taken.

There are reports of positive reaction to Tejas Mk1 by IAF pilots. If these are of value (ie not simply because Tejas is an Indian design), I suggest inow would be a good time to order another 16-20 Mk1 FOC aircraft.

So it took from March 2019 to January 2021 for the Mk1A order to be 'converted into a firm order very soon.' and in that period the opportunity to build more FOC aircraft faded away.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Correct. Funny thing, I just glanced at that site and found this (edited here):

Interview with HAL CMD R. Madhvan published 22nd March 2019:


Source: http://www.businessworld.in/article/...2-2018-165552/

I wrote:


So it took from March 2019 to January 2021 for the Mk1A order to be 'converted into a firm order very soon.' and in that period the opportunity to build more FOC aircraft faded away.

It took years for Russia to develop su-57/Armata/Mig35 and US for F-35 and UK for their carrier....many reasons why Indian defence sector runs a bit slow but by 2025 we should have enough evidence their productivity and indigenous claims in an objective manner one way or the other.

 

[Spitfire9]

It took years for Russia to develop su-57/Armata/Mig35 and US for F-35 and UK for their carrier....many reasons why Indian defence sector runs a bit slow but by 2025 we should have enough evidence their productivity and indigenous claims in an objective manner one way or the other.

Taking the best part of 2 years to get round to actually ordering something you have already decided to order (Mk1A) has nothing to do with taking time to develop something technical. The first is absurd, ludicrous, laughable. The second is inevitable. A decision to do something can be made in seconds eg to develop something technical. The time to execute the content of that decision eg to actually develop something technical will not be seconds.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Taking the best part of 2 years to get round to actually ordering something you have already decided to order (Mk1A) has nothing to do with taking time to develop something technical. The first is absurd, ludicrous, laughable. The second is inevitable. A decision to do something can be made in seconds eg to develop something technical. The time to execute the content of that decision eg to actually develop something technical will not be seconds.

If you have that level of details to pass your judgement then perhaps you should go on the advisory board to government of India.

 

[Spitfire9]

By the sound of that, millions of people could make a positive contribution if invited to go on the advisory board to government of India. You don't need to be any kind of genius to grasp that taking necessary decisions in a timely manner gives better results than not doing so.

 

[Lonewolf]

By the sound of that, millions of people could make a positive contribution if invited to go on the advisory board to government of India. You don't need to be any kind of genius to grasp that taking necessary decisions in a timely manner gives better results than not doing so.

@Spitfire9 @omaebakabaka both of you need to calm down , thread is not for bickering .


Yeah tejas has faced major setback due to our own faults , but t that don't make us a failure ,our knowledge curve has improved in rnd front , production front too is better , not t quantity wise till mk1a is in production , but quality has improved compared to russian but need to improve more .

Yeah we all here have some complaint about tejas saga but at the same time hopes for upcoming order .

 

[omaebakabaka]

@Spitfire9 @omaebakabaka both of you need to calm down , thread is not for bickering .


Yeah tejas has faced major setback due to our own faults , but t that don't make us a failure ,our knowledge curve has improved in rnd front , production front too is better , not t quantity wise till mk1a is in production , but quality has improved compared to russian but need to improve more .

Yeah we all here have some complaint about tejas saga but at the same time hopes for upcoming order .

Lol I am calm, I think we are going at light year speeds compared to typical Indian process these days in defense and some other related things. I am not sure if that other gentleman is from India or not and interacted with Indian bureaucracy at any time/level in personal life in any shape or form. Even UK/Europe knows importing islamic scum is leading to destruction of their cities then why aren't they banning it? Things don't look as simple in real world....may be its me but its just my observation that he keeps complaining about Tejas but does not seem to accept the fact that this is our first entry and will come with setbacks and what not

 

[Spitfire9]

Lol I am calm, I think we are going at light year speeds compared to typical Indian process these days in defense and some other related things. I am not sure if that other gentleman is from India or not and interacted with Indian bureaucracy at any time/level in personal life in any shape or form.

You are quite right that I have never interacted with Indian bureaucracy at any time, so I apologise if I have failed to understand just how desperately it slows things down normally and that Tejas things may be happening faster than things happen usually in India.

I'm just a straightforward character historically used to being called in to provide software results for clients where I do what is needed to provide the functionality required within the time required within the budget required. In that capacity I'm not used to bureaucracy being put in my way (sometimes because I have got involved in projects that are not working out and the big business/govt client has been desperate to get the job back on track and done).

 

[HariPrasad-1]

It took years for Russia to develop su-57/Armata/Mig35 and US for F-35 and UK for their carrier....many reasons why Indian defence sector runs a bit slow but by 2025 we should have enough evidence their productivity and indigenous claims in an objective manner one way or the other.

Our defence stuff development is slow but they have always delivered better than what was promised. Take for example Tejas. It was originally conceived as a point defence fighter. However, ultimately we made it a multirole fighter with active electronics scan array radar, EW suits, state of art weapins. It was delayed but the product which has come out is way better than what was originally conceived.

 

[FalconSlayers]

 

[Flying Dagger]

I am not sure going by IAF record, we don't retire anything that fast as we don't plan that well based on looking back at recent decades, if leftists come to power again then nothing is guaranteed in terms of keeping ahead and staying ahead....agreed IAF got to do what they have to do to address immediate threats.

Honestly IAF planned way in advance it was the politics , babudom and Tejas project which fcuked everything up.

They wanted Mirage in the first place After getting to know it but Jags Mig 29 Mig 27/23 more mig 21 were bought and later Sukhoi . Even the original MMRCA was for Mirage.

If we had gone with Mirage 2k in 80s would have been in very good position With 300+ of them in inventory . IAF knows it's budget constraint that's why they wanted a single engine fighter jet which is advanced like F-16/gripen and can be deployed in numbers with high availability rate. As of now Tejas Mk1a/MWF is the answer for their need.

 

[Trololo]

Honestly IAF planned way in advance it was the politics , babudom and Tejas project which fcuked everything up.

They wanted Mirage in the first place After getting to know it but Jags Mig 29 Mig 27/23 more mig 21 were bought and later Sukhoi .

If we had gone with Mirage 2k in 80s would have been in very good position With 300+ of them in inventory . IAF knows it's budget constraint that's why they wanted a single engine fighter jet which is advanced like F-16/gripen and can be deployed in numbers with high availability rate. As of now Tejas Mk1a/MWF is the answer for their need.

In this AESA-BVR age M2000 doesn't field an AESA or a 100+KM range BVR. Even in the latest upgrade. And the French won't allow anyone to mount a non French radar on it. Missiles and munitions maybe.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Honestly IAF planned way in advance it was the politics , babudom and Tejas project which fcuked everything up.

They wanted Mirage in the first place After getting to know it but Jags Mig 29 Mig 27/23 more mig 21 were bought and later Sukhoi . Even the original MMRCA was for Mirage.

If we had gone with Mirage 2k in 80s would have been in very good position With 300+ of them in inventory . IAF knows it's budget constraint that's why they wanted a single engine fighter jet which is advanced like F-16/gripen and can be deployed in numbers with high availability rate. As of now Tejas Mk1a/MWF is the answer for their need.

Thats the thing, they should go for more Rafales now when we have a need and chance to arm ourselves looking at the instability in the world rightnow and looking ahead. Long term Tejas, Sukhoi and Rafale should be the only lines.

 

[Flying Dagger]

In this AESA-BVR age M2000 doesn't field an AESA or a 100+KM range BVR. Even in the latest upgrade. And the French won't allow anyone to mount a non French radar on it. Missiles and munitions maybe.

Not true if we had gone for it... AESA and avionics upgrade would have been available else we would have done it ourselves.

 

[JBH22]

Honestly IAF planned way in advance it was the politics , babudom and Tejas project which fcuked everything up.

They wanted Mirage in the first place After getting to know it but Jags Mig 29 Mig 27/23 more mig 21 were bought and later Sukhoi . Even the original MMRCA was for Mirage.

If we had gone with Mirage 2k in 80s would have been in very good position With 300+ of them in inventory . IAF knows it's budget constraint that's why they wanted a single engine fighter jet which is advanced like F-16/gripen and can be deployed in numbers with high availability rate. As of now Tejas Mk1a/MWF is the answer for their need.

The modernisation of Mirage is too much.
I still believe optimum mix of western/russian give us numbers and performance. Without Mig 21 or Mig 27 we would not have the numbers.
Btw Mig 29 is still a decent fighter against what pakistan and chinese throw at us.
SU 30 MKI after MLU will be an even better aircraft.
Rather the purchase of Jags was crazy. Ideally it should have been some Mirage 2000, Su 25 and Mig 29 in the 80s. These platforms would have still been relevant in 2021.