LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Hydra3]

Neither have they baught old relic F18 which even USN doesn’t want anymore.
For EW we can always buy dedicated jets. And even a standard Rafale can do , without any mod

At what $? Thats point. 36 mere rafalewith its add on & weaponary with costs us 7+ billion. Do IN have that big budget?
And no, there is no EW attack jet available in the market other than growler. Many jet like rafale may have EW suites for EW warfare, but Growler is un parallel in EW attacj mode. If reports are true, growler scored multiple f22kills in bvr, no other jets has performed so far. An aircraft designed to jamm s300 is really a good addition.

 

[AbRaj]

At what $? Thats point. 36 mere rafalewith its add on & weaponary with costs us 7+ billion. Do IN have that big budget?
And no, there is no EW attack jet available in the market other than growler. Many jet like rafale may have EW suites for EW warfare, but Growler is un parallel in EW attacj mode. If reports are true, growler scored multiple f22kills in bvr, no other jets has performed so far. An aircraft designed to jamm s300 is really a good addition.

If price is the only concern ?
How do you know the cost of Growlers? And that F18 are cheap?
Hint : Check recent helicopter deal and you will know that American jets are far from cheap.
A lot of EW jets are available . Or we can make one using platforms like Embarer or falcon. A lot of airforce are using such types.
In any foreign acquisition , you will get what you pay.
Rafale EW suit is not much inferior to dedicated F18/growler. Read their use in Syria . They were among the first(alongside F22) to enter the Syrian airspace protected by S300. F18 came later after destruction of radars

 

[Hydra3]

If price is the only concern ?
How do you know the cost of Growlers? And that F18 are cheap?
Hint : Check recent helicopter deal and you will know that American jets are far from cheap.
A lot of EW jets are available . Or we can make one using platforms like Embarer or falcon. A lot of airforce are using such types.
In any foreign acquisition , you will get what you pay.
Rafale EW suit is not much inferior to dedicated F18/growler. Read their use in Syria . They were among the first(alongside F22) to enter the Syrian airspace protected by S300. F18 came later after destruction of radars

Growler we don't need in numbers, may be 8 or 12. F18 will be a cheap craft compares to rafale, sure. That helicopter is the current super star in ASW, so hefty price. Logical option since we are lagging in ASW.
And no, none of these EW attack aircraft will be able to operate from an aircraft career only Growler will be able to do that. AFAIK, rafale entered in Libya ( correct me if i am wrong)before taking down SAMs. I dont considered Libyan defense is a benchmark. Lastly, i never said that EW Systems of rafale is inferior, it is one of the best but not as good as a dedicated EW attack craft like growler ( its a logical assumption ).

 

[Immanuel]

Since third carrier is delayed neither f18 nor rafale m will be ordered. There is more than enough time for tedbf to be ready. Tedbf will be flying by 2026-27 and ready to enter service by 2032 . Third carried even if sanctioned by 2022 will only be in service by 2035.

TEDBF has no takers in the IAF/IN. To spend time, effort and money on a silly pipe dream when both SH and Rafale to a lesser extent can full-fill the IN need today. The only twin-engine fighter India should be focused on is the AMCA and N-AMCA. How about they focus on actually delivering the LCA MK-1, 1A & MK-2 on time and at one point hit between 24-36 aircraft production capacity per year with a large order pipeline. If we have around 300 Tejas in various variants in service by 2030 that would be a good achievement. For the moment IN doesn't even have a firm order commitment to the MK-2.

The rest of the development work is waste of time, creates unwanted distraction and will only delay the other deliverables.

How about the IN focus on ordering a Carrier first? HAL focus on delivering on the MK1,1A and MK-2 and IAF can focus on shutting it's pie hole for a moment without additional requirements. MOd should focus on finding more money instead of wasting time and cutting budgets.

 

[aditya10r]

TEDBF has no takers in the IAF/IN. To spend time, effort and money on a silly pipe dream when both SH and Rafale to a lesser extent can full-fill the IN need today. The only twin-engine fighter India should be focused on is the AMCA and N-AMCA.

**THANK YOU**

Finally somebody said it.

Think logically people IN is never going to have dozen of supercarriers that justifies having a dedicated twin engine fighter project.TEDBF/ORCA will cost easily over 5 BILLION USD for procurement and development and all.That money is better utilised purchasing ADVANCED SUPER HORNETS with a sprinkle of GROWLERS.And the procurement might not even cost us 5 billion USD.The cost at which USN is procuring Hornets is dirt cheap(less than 60 million per jet).

And whats the guarantee that the TEDBF will meet all the development and production timelines(which are already ridiculously tight) and what is the guarantee that navy will in the end commit to the end product in good numbers to make it viable.At best Navy requires some 150 jets in total for all three carriers plus attrition and training.The cost of procuring a single jet could even eclipse the cost of Rafale(which in itself is insanely expensive at over 230 million USD each).

Whats the point of developing a 4th gen or 4++ category aircraft into 2030s when whole world will transition into 5++ or some countries(US/UK/France-Germany) into the 6th gen aircraft age.TEDBF will be at a terrible disadvantage.And it will serve well into 2060s and god knows what will be the threat matrix then.We need to make long term choices.

IN should simply go for Advanced super hornets plus Growlers and HAWKEYE(or any fixed wing aircraft of that category).And commit to NAVAL version of AMCA.

IAF should also stop dreaming of uber expensive weapons,understand the realities and order over 200 Tejas MK1A and order MK2 in good numbers.We cannot have 20-25 squadrons out of 45 squadrons made up of Heavy or Medium twin engine jets.They are too expensive to operate.

 

[Flying Dagger]

What matter In the end Upto BVRAAM And NEZ and EW DRFM's

LCA Lower RCS And Composite always helps it To Get Lower Ratio for NEZ And Firing solution

Basically Ideal Range To engage Enemy is 50-60 Km before this Any Fighter can easily evade BVR's using EW

Now LCA has RCS of 2m2 (loaded)
And J-10c 5m2 (comparable to Loaded F-16 (assumed) )

KLJA has range of 175 km for 5m2 And Ideally it Will engage 2m2 at 90-100 km
While Elta 2052 has 130 km 1m2 has Tracking range close to 150 km for fighters at 4 KW With 800-1000 TR modules

The ELM-2052 is an advanced Fire Control Radar (FCR) designed for air-to-air superiority and strike missions, based on fully solid-state Active Ellectronically Scanning Array (AESA) technology, enabling the radar to achieve

1. long detection ranges,
2. high mission reliability and
3. multi-target tracking capabilities.

The ELM-2052 radar provides simultaneous modes of operation supporting multi-mission capabilities for air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea operation modes, and weapon deployment.

The Radar has a peak power of ~ 10KW+ and has around 1500 TR Modules so its very much implied as Alec speculated that the Radar has gallium nitrite based TR modules and if that is the case then the range would be around 180–250 KM for the 1 Sq M RCS

1. Ideal range to engage 50-60 km ... Not any more.

Meteor has NEZ of 60-70 km ( Earlier it was 20-25 km for other missiles including Aim 120 c series ) and an aircraft will engage at 100km+ if they get the opportunity.

2. Trm for miniaturised Elta on Tejas is 850 around and in Jaguar 700+

3. How did you arrived at fully loaded Tejas RCS being 2m2? Frontal RCS.. right.. anyway Give reference .

As per my knowledge clean RCS is 0.5-1.5 sqm while F 16 has 1-2 sq m when the twin tanks and missile will hang below it rcs must be 3 sqm . For mk2 a little higher.. do share some info.


4. Please when you quote Quora share the link too. We aren't getting GaN Elta 2052 I might have mentioned in the comment before that Israel offered us to be part of the development but we went on our own with Uttam Aesa . The one offered to us isnt GaN .

Elta radar is customized for Tejas as it's a smaller jet and not an Israeli F-15 or F-16.

APG - 81 the one employed on F 35 has tracking range of 150 km for 1m2 target. Now what gave you the idea that such a radar will be passed on to India by Israel or USA ?

 

[abhay rajput]

Our LCA jet engine is of US orgin, gas turbine for most of the naval ships including indigenous aircraft carrier is of US orgin. If autonomy is problem, then these products are alos under threat.
Western neighbor has still used f16 for offensive role against last year, anything happened?
US weaponary has its own advantages, look at p8i and what capability they have given to us. Look at apache & chinook, how quickly they become operationalized. No russian equipment will operationalized within in that much short time. Look at french & how we fucked up with scorpeene deals.
US always keep up with its promises on contract.

Lol... You think that they aren't blackmailing us..! Iran oil supply has been replaced by USA which is way costly for us. That's just one there are many more ... Interfering in our internal matters.. you haven't seen any blackmailing by Russia/USA yet.? Indigenous is the solution and yes our products will not be world class in our first attempt but it will get better over time..
Our defence budget can't afford overexpensive western equipments...
Regarding your point about f18 and Rafale - read bs dhanoa sir statements about f16 latest variants and f18.. according to him they are not even in the same league.. Growler will definitely be an asset but you can make any aircraft in growler version. Chinese have there own , so does Russian ... We have some quite good electronic warfare equipment ourself ..

 

[AbRaj]

Growler we don't need in numbers, may be 8 or 12. F18 will be a cheap craft compares to rafale, sure. That helicopter is the current super star in ASW, so hefty price. Logical option since we are lagging in ASW.
And no, none of these EW attack aircraft will be able to operate from an aircraft career only Growler will be able to do that. AFAIK, rafale entered in Libya ( correct me if i am wrong)before taking down SAMs. I dont considered Libyan defense is a benchmark. Lastly, i never said that EW Systems of rafale is inferior, it is one of the best but not as good as a dedicated EW attack craft like growler ( its a logical assumption ).

Do growlers are cleared for sale ?
Anyway F18 isn’t cheap at all considering how old this machine is and it’s futu prospects. It will be another Jaguar type of aircraft for India, obsolete at the time of induction. Why waste money when F35 is right next door.
Considering global recession it’s hard to induct such costly machines just for such short time. Better order few more squadrons of Mig 29 and plan for F35 or Something in-house.

Regarding Naval Choppers Romeo is damn expensive machine no doubt very potent and kind of multi role. That said NH 90 is newer design with better potential for future development, more affordable and backed by Airbus. Though I agree it’s still in developmental phase and may encounter a lot of technical glitches like F35.

And if we talk about affordability for IN, Ka-27 beats all hands down. Also IN is already operating it and it’s very compact system can be deployed on a wide variety of ships.

Also we have Lynx and Super Lynx cheaper than Romeo

 

[Flying Dagger]

Lol... You think that they aren't blackmailing us..! Iran oil supply has been replaced by USA which is way costly for us. That's just one there are many more ... Interfering in our internal matters.. you haven't seen any blackmailing by Russia/USA yet.? Indigenous is the solution and yes our products will not be world class in our first attempt but it will get better over time..
Our defence budget can't afford overexpensive western equipments...
Regarding your point about f18 and Rafale - read bs dhanoa sir statements about f16 latest variants and f18.. according to him they are not even in the same league.. Growler will definitely be an asset but you can make any aircraft in growler version. Chinese have there own , so does Russian ... We have some quite good electronic warfare equipment ourself ..

Indigenous is the way out.. that's why orca is a good concept if we have resources at top and ada isn't confident abt AMCA time line just go for it.

Growler is a different beast we don't have anything close to it..

Which one do you wish to develop as Indian growler Sukhoi ?

Do growlers are cleared for sale ?
Anyway F18 isn’t cheap at all considering how old this machine is and it’s futu prospects. It will be another Jaguar type of aircraft for India, obsolete at the time of induction. Why waste money when F35 is right next door.
Considering global recession it’s hard to induct such costly machines just for such short time. Better order few more squadrons of Mig 29 and plan for F35 or Something in-house.

Yes it is on offer a lite version for us.

Mig 29 on lease or old one make sense. Priority should be to upgrade all su and get Tejas and Rafale combine in air..

 

[Karthi]

Tejas FOC variant looks very shiny

 

[WARREN SS]

1. Ideal range to engage 50-60 km ... Not any more.

Meteor has NEZ of 60-70 km ( Earlier it was 20-25 km for other missiles including Aim 120 c series ) and an aircraft will engage at 100km+ if they get the opportunity.

RCS Play Major factor In there NEZ Ratio and range

Any Fighter Can Evade BVR using Evasive Maneuvering EW DRFM's & chaff's If they engage before that

3. How did you arrived at fully loaded Tejas RCS being 2m2? Frontal RCS.. right.. anyway Give reference .

As per my knowledge clean RCS is 0.5-1.5 sqm while F 16 has 1-2 sq m when the twin tanks and missile will hang below it rcs must be 3 sqm . For mk2 a little higher.. do share some info.

The RCS of Tejas has been brought down significantly by modifying shape aspects within the limitations set by aerodynamics. Tejas got one of the best RCS value in the entire 4th generation fighters. Publicly available figure is 0.5m2.
https://defenceupdate.in/analysis-does-lca-tejas-posses-stealth/

RCS of Air-to-Air vs Air-to-Ground is different Do calculate


Here A Well Know Site Compared It For you

http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/tejas-mk1a-vs-gripen-ng-j-10

 

[WARREN SS]

Elta radar is customized for Tejas as it's a smaller jet and not an Israeli F-15 or F-16.

APG - 81 the one employed on F 35 has tracking range of 150 km for 1m2 target. Now what gave you the idea that such a radar will be passed on to India by Israel or USA ?

It Doesn't Matter Even With 100 Km Tracking Is Enough For fighter Like LCA Due to its Low RCS
And T/R modules Will 1000 T/R Similar to Vixen

Nose cone Of LCA Is Similar To Gripen- E

NEZ is not fixed Its ratio changes according To RCS of fighter

 

[AbRaj]

Indigenous is the way out.. that's why orca is a good concept if we have resources at top and ada isn't confident abt AMCA time line just go for it.

Growler is a different beast we don't have anything close to it..

Which one do you wish to develop as Indian growler Sukhoi ?


Yes it is on offer a lite version for us.

Mig 29 on lease or old one make sense. Priority should be to upgrade all su and get Tejas and Rafale combine in air..

Absolutely true. We already have a lot of khichadi in our hands. Let’s not make it more complicated.
Choose a good system and induct it in good numbers gradually. Try to maintain commonality within a rational level.
In meantime focus on own design

 

[AbRaj]

View attachment 44753


Tejas FOC variant looks very shiny

More Polished...................
Not bad at all. Hope to se a formation flying with operational configuration

 

[Shekhar Singh]

At what $? Thats point. 36 mere rafalewith its add on & weaponary with costs us 7+ billion. Do IN have that big budget?
And no, there is no EW attack jet available in the market other than growler. Many jet like rafale may have EW suites for EW warfare, but Growler is un parallel in EW attacj mode. If reports are true, growler scored multiple f22kills in bvr, no other jets has performed so far. An aircraft designed to jamm s300 is really a good addition.

Rafale F3R is more advanced than Growlers even in EW role.

 

[AbRaj]

View attachment 44753


Tejas FOC variant looks very shiny

More Polished...................
Not bad at all. Hope to se a formation flying with operational configuration

Btw people here (and most probably IAF too) are very shortsighted folks. And this sense of relatively better economy is making matter worse.
We think If we will win the war by purchasing super weapons like F22 rafale and FGFA etc.
But in reality battle field has changed so much so that even these potent standalone platforms can be counter by inferior platforms but with better tactics.

We must utilise what we have instead of running aimlessly for magic “game changer” weapons.

 

[AbRaj]

Rafale F3R is more advanced than Growlers even in EW role.

Anyway A squadron of Su30 or even LCA Tejas with decent BVRs and WVR missile ,which is data linked to Superior AWACS like PHALCON is way more practical than couple of expensive but with poorly linked Rafale

 

[Longewala]

At what $? Thats point. 36 mere rafalewith its add on & weaponary with costs us 7+ billion. Do IN have that big budget?
And no, there is no EW attack jet available in the market other than growler. Many jet like rafale may have EW suites for EW warfare, but Growler is un parallel in EW attacj mode. If reports are true, growler scored multiple f22kills in bvr, no other jets has performed so far. An aircraft designed to jamm s300 is really a good addition.

Of that 7bn, about 2bn were one off fixed costs (r&d, base setup, maintenance hubs and contract)

If we buy say 50 jets for IN, we will avoid a large chunk of those costs, while buying Hornets will imply additional such fixed costs .
Even if Hornets are say sub-100m unit costs, the savings would be moderste, say 1bn

That's just not worth it given the overall scale of purchase (72 air force Rafael + 50 IN jets would add up to close to 20bn anyways)
Given that Rafael is a much more modern jet and we have the opportunity if ensuring commonality across our mmrca.
That commonality would mean better availability, lower running costs and most important the ability to surge rafale sorties on our land borders to the north by switching IN squadrons if needed

 

[Flying Dagger]

RCS Play Major factor In there NEZ Ratio and range

Any Fighter Can Evade BVR using Evasive Maneuvering EW DRFM's & chaff's If they engage before that



The RCS of Tejas has been brought down significantly by modifying shape aspects within the limitations set by aerodynamics. Tejas got one of the best RCS value in the entire 4th generation fighters. Publicly available figure is 0.5m2.
https://defenceupdate.in/analysis-does-lca-tejas-posses-stealth/

RCS of Air-to-Air vs Air-to-Ground is different Do calculate


Here A Well Know Site Compared It For you

http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/tejas-mk1a-vs-gripen-ng-j-10

Your source itself says acc to.publicly available figure.. what kind of source it is.

If every fighter can evade then missiles are useless ? That's ewww

The official statement said one third RCS of other jets.. that is 1 sqm and with weapons hanging to it definitely 3 sqm or over that.

It Doesn't Matter Even With 100 Km Tracking Is Enough For fighter Like LCA Due to its Low RCS
And T/R modules Will 1000 T/R Similar to Vixen

Nose cone Of LCA Is Similar To Gripen- E

NEZ is not fixed Its ratio changes according To RCS of fighter

The range of a missile depends on if it is head on or tail chase. The missile gets guided by radar of its own and the platform it is fired from. That means the aircraft is already discovered and the NEZ of a missile will be what it is. No one is paying 2.4 million dollar for a meteor if it's NEZ is same as the older missiles. And if it is that less than an IR missile make more sense than investing on meteor or Aim 120 D series.

But wait acc to you all.can be evaded by an aircraft so they are useless.

Gripen E has GaN based AESA next in line. Their IRST IFF both are world class. Mk1a couldn't keep up the promise and after seeing Gripen development Tejas mk2 program has evolved into what it is.. instead of just lengthening of fuselage to accommodate a new engine.

So it will be better if we don't chest thump like porks to tell the world that Tejas is now better than Gripen E.

 

[WARREN SS]

Your source itself says acc to.publicly available figure.. what kind of source it is.

If every fighter can evade then missiles are useless ? That's ewww

The official statement said one third RCS of other jets.. that is 1 sqm and with weapons hanging to it definitely 3 sqm or over that.

By that Logic Every Figure are is Kind from source or assumed Figures
Real RCS of military planes are Classified

DO you Understand The Purpose of DRFM's And EW on air craft ???Its there Job To Evade Missiles

The range of a missile depends on if it is head on or tail chase. The missile gets guided by radar of its own and the platform it is fired from. That means the aircraft is already discovered and the NEZ of a missile will be what it is. No one is paying 2.4 million dollar for a meteor if it's NEZ is same as the older missiles. And if it is that less than an IR missile make more sense than investing on meteor or Aim 120 D series.

I rest My Case I am Talking to Another Fanboi Talking Fanboi gibbrish

By Boi Fighter Planes Are 20 times costlier than Missile

Here A video to Which Can explain it to you How NEZ Calculated In Noob terms Hope you get It