Know Your 'Rafale'

[JAISWAL]

What does India want from Britain? - Telegraph
.
.
By giving aid to its former colony, Britain risks
falling behind in the race to build trade with a
natural partner.
How ungrateful are the Indians? Our hard-
working taxpayers give them £280"‰ million a
year in aid, and they fail to hand Britain a lucrative
£13"‰billion fighter jet contract in return. That is the
mood among a number of backbench Tory MPs
after India's decision last week to overlook the
Typhoon Eurofighter jet in favour of the French
Rafale; a feeling fuelled by a report in The Sunday
Telegraph last weekend that the country's finance
minister had described British aid as an unwanted
"peanut" in the greater scheme of its development spending.

 

[bhramos]

 

[bhramos]

 

[bhramos]

 

[asianobserve]

He was not only referring to the intakes but also the saw tooth projections on the underside of the fuselage, wings etc which act as radar scatterers.

But the air intake still dominates the aircraft, the antenna-like fuel probe also...

 

[H.A.]

One more desperate attempt by british to woo back poor-backword India and its billion $$$.
.
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BAE may cut Typhoon price to win India order
.
LONDON: British defence company BAE Systems is looking at all options to win back a $20 billion tender with the Indian air force, the company's chief executive told the Financial Times on Tuesday.

"I will be discussing with our partners what we do next. In my view, all options are on the table," BAE Chief Executive Ian King was quoted by the FT as saying.

India preferred a bid from France's Dassault aviation last month, after competing with BAE to secure a 126 aircraft contract.

Dassault's Rafale fighter jet undercut BAE's Eurofighter Typhoon, an Indian government source told Reuters when the contract was agreed.

The FT cited King as saying BAE was considering reducing the price of the Typhoon, but needed to consult with its partners in Germany, Italy and Spain on the best options open.
sources--
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BAE Systems may consider cut to Typhoon price: Report - The Economic Times
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BAE may cut Typhoon price to win India order - Telegraph

Does this mean that EFT still has a chance?. I kept hearing that EFT does have a chance, however i did not know that it was for real, how can the government justify that you announce Rafale as the winner and then make Typhoon the winner wouldn't that lead to people wondering if there is an angle of corruption in the deal. Is there an option in the tender that allows the L2 to re-submit the price-bid.

 

[Armand2REP]

BAe isn't even recognised as the vendor. EF consortium was represented by Germany and only they can communicate the offer. The bidding process is over so no new bids will be entertained.

 

[H.A.]

BAe isn't even recognised as the vendor. EF consortium was represented by Germany and only they can communicate the offer. The bidding process is over so no new bids will be entertained.

If thats the case does that mean all this talks regarding EFT still having a fighting chance is over. Does it truly mean that Rafale is the clear winner?

Inbetween i like you avatar it belongs to which plane?

 

[pmaitra]

BAe isn't even recognised as the vendor. EF consortium was represented by Germany and only they can communicate the offer. The bidding process is over so no new bids will be entertained.

You never know when the Indians will do a volte face. While personally, I'd prefer the Rafale, Indians are a commercial race, so don't count your chicken right away! Let the deal hatch!

 

[Godless-Kafir]

You never know when the Indians will do a volte face. While personally, I'd prefer the Rafale, Indians are a commercial race, so don't count your chicken right away! Let the deal hatch!

That is true but Indians are a commercial race as in you where payed to be born? Wth are you talking about, i have given up on you.

 

[KS]

But the air intake still dominates the aircraft, the antenna-like fuel probe also...

The fuel probe doesnt contribute that massively to the RCS.

Moreover the airframe of the Rafale is quite new when compared to SH and contains more % radar absorbent composites.

 

[Armand2REP]

You never know when the Indians will do a volte face. While personally, I'd prefer the Rafale, Indians are a commercial race, so don't count your chicken right away! Let the deal hatch!

There is a process to follow. India will not entertain bids from EF unless Rafale deal is unworkable. A new bid will not even be entertained until then.
T

 

[Godless-Kafir]

By the time the french realize HALs sucks big time in the area of cost management and production streamlining they will just stick to making it France and not transfer any load to India. HAL is a problem child.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Anyone know what is the cost of Dassult fighter at L1 tender? It was 80million$ in 2008 wonder how much where they able to cut down?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Does this mean that EFT still has a chance?. I kept hearing that EFT does have a chance, however i did not know that it was for real, how can the government justify that you announce Rafale as the winner and then make Typhoon the winner wouldn't that lead to people wondering if there is an angle of corruption in the deal. Is there an option in the tender that allows the L2 to re-submit the price-bid.

L1 means it has only qualified to make the cut, L2 can still catch up if they give all they got.

 

[Sridhar]

An Insight Into Why the IAF Picked the Rafale
Posted by vkthakur on Sunday, February 05, 2012 (EST)
Air Cmde Parvez Khokhar (Retd.), a former IAF test pilot, provides an insight into why the Rafale was the logical option as IAF's MMRCA.
Dassault Rafale.
Dassault Rafale. Photo Credit: Dassault

February 05, 2012, (Sawf News) - On January 31, 2012, Dassault announced that Rafale had been selected over Eurofighter Typhoon as IAF's MMRCA choice, because of Dassault's more competitive bid.

The MOD has yet to make a formal announcement, but according to the Indian Express, the Rafale bid was 10% lower than the Typhoon's.

The MMRCA procurement process has admittedly been protracted, but it's also been methodical and technically very sound. It has been closely followed by the press and, encouragingly enough, by a significant section of the public.

The procurement process has been open, to the extent that it could possibly be open.

Having accepted the technical competence of both the Rafale and Eurofighter bids, the IAF would have been happy inducting either of the two aircraft.

Rafale emergence as the L1 offer probably gives the IAF more than it would have settled for with the Eurofighter.

Besides being more competitively priced, the Rafael bid likely comes with lesser number of strings attached.

Dassault independently developed the Rafale; Dassault is independently marketing Rafale to India; Dassault is a French company and the President of France has assured India of full TOT for the weapons system, as well as supply of the entire source code.

There will be no restriction on how the IAF uses the aircraft, or the source of weapon systems that it fits on them.

MMRCA procurement is set to make history, not just because at $12 billion it is the largest defense procurement ever, but because the IAF got to pick from the best weapon systems on offer in the entire world! That has never happened before! It was a dream choice!
Dassault Rafale.
Dassault Rafale. Photo Credit: Dassault

The Rafale will share some systems with the upgraded Mirage 2000s on order from Dassault.

The Mirage 2000 is an aircraft that served India very well during the Kargil hostilities, an aircraft that the IAF has been very happy with since its induction.

Not everyone is happy with Rafale's selection, but the IAF is.

There are some reservations about the technical capabilities of the Rafale.

Air Cmde Parvez Khokhar (Retd.), a former IAF test pilot, addressed some of the skepticism in a mail addressed to a Yahoo Group of former Marut HF-24 pilots. I asked him if I could reproduce it on my blog and he consented.

I first met Air Cmde Khokhar when I was a young Marut pilot in Jodhpur in the late seventies. He was an ASTE (Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment) pilot at that time and would visit the Marut base periodically for compatibility trials of the aircraft with new weapons systems.

While in the IAF, Air Cmde Khokhar served in Iraq and Pakistan, commanded a fighter squadron and a forward fighter base.

He served as the Project Director of Flight Testing of the LCA before retiring in 2003. Since then he has served as an adviser to Boeing, Grob, Saab and a few other companies in the US and Europe.

The following is what Air Cmde Khokhar has to say about IAF's choice of the Rafael, reproduced here with his permission.

I was the first pilot from the IAF to fly the Rafale in 2003. Having flown a number of the other competitors for the MMRCA deal, I can state with absolute conviction, that the IAF evaluation team has done a thoroughly professional job, which we should all be proud of.

I accompanied them for one of the evaluations. The short-listing of the EFA and Rafale also make total sense, since ether one of these ac would have added value to the IAF. Lets study the alternatives.

Unless we had a Single Engine fighter which we found suitable, shortlisting a SE with a twin engine would not require a rocket scientist to guess who the winner would have been.

The F-18 and the MiG-35, did not meet a large number of our QRs. But both are cheaper than the two ac finally listed. Adding them to the short list, would have ensured their entry into the IAF, through default.

The IAF's short list was well considered. The L1 could have been either one, but the IAF's selection was based only on professional criteria. Obviously, the IAF was not aware of the price tag at that time.

Kudos must also be given to the Govt for not interfering, politically, with the final selection and following a transparent selection procedure. I wish they would have done so for the selection of the Vth Gen fighter, as well.

The question that Air Cmde Khokhar raises about India decision to prematurely commit to the T-50/FGFA is worth noting.
An Insight Into Why the IAF Picked the Rafale

 

[Sridhar]

IDSA COMMENT
Rafale Wins the MMRCA Competition
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Ramesh Phadke

February 6, 2012

The French Dassault Rafale has reportedly won the coveted contract for 126 MMRCA on the basis of its price being lower than the Eurofighter Typhoon. It is still early days, however, as months of detailed negotiations would inevitably follow before such a complex and high priced contract is finally signed.

The IAF had always rooted for the Rafale and hence it should be happy and satisfied over a job well done considering the complexity and the time delays involved when a large number of decision makers are in the loop. One of the reasons the IAF favoured this fighter, besides intrinsic merit, is its experience with the Mirage-2000 fighters acquired in 1984-85. The Mirage was used first in the opening phase in Sri Lanka. Later the Mirage also proved its superior technology during the 1999 Kargil conflict when the small enemy targets at high altitude could not be successfully engaged with other strike fighters. The Mirage-2000 fleet has maintained a very high serviceability and utilisation rate and above all an unbelievably envious flight safety record. It is hoped that the Rafale would prove equally effective and economical in the long run. The main reason for the high serviceability of the Mirage-2000 fleet, I am told, is the near instant availability of spares and technical support from the French Dassault and the Thales team, and a state of the art avionics laboratory in Gwalior that is more sterile than the best hospital's Intensive Care Unit (ICU). Considering that the quality of technical manpower is about the same across the IAF, it must be the Western technology, training and SOPs formulated by the French and the constantly close interaction between the user and the provider that are responsible for the success of the Mirage-2000 fleet. It is perhaps for this reason that India has chosen to upgrade the Mirage-2000 fleet for a whopping USD 1.8 billion. The IAF will surely do the same with the Rafale to obtain timely spares and maintenance support.

This is the first export contract that Dassault has won and the possibility of the IAF ordering more Rafale fighters in due course puts a very heavy responsibility on the French as future global contracts will probably be influenced by the Indian experience. Dassault will be expected to transfer all the requisite 'knowledge' for safe and efficient operations of this fourth generation fighter. High sortie rates and easy maintainability would be the key to the success of the Rafale project. Although a shade less expensive than the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Rafale is among the most expensive fighters in the world. India would thus look for real value for money in Transfer of Technology (ToT) and life cycle costs.

Another key area of cooperation would be the assistance France provides for India's long running Kaveri engine programme. All defence contracts of this scale are said to include up to 50 per cent offset obligation. Given the current state of Indian defence industry and the associated regulations, both India and France would have to find new and innovative ways to translate that into reality. The Rafale carries a wide array of highly sophisticated weapons and missiles without which it is but an advanced platform. India would be well advised to explore the manufacture of as many of these weapons and missiles as possible. Avionics including the AESA radar (itself under development) is another area for close cooperation and ToT, if this relationship is to become truly rewarding for both sides. HAL, the Indian company that will eventually manufacture the remaining 108 fighters in India, and other associated SMEs would also require very close support and understanding to put India firmly on the hi-tech trajectory. France can play a vital role in easing the learning curve. In fact, the MoD, especially its Department of Defence Production, must facilitate India's defence industry to team up with France to design and develop other systems such as UAV and UCAV, multipurpose missiles especially MANPADs, PGMs and a host of other weapons for Indian consumption and even exports.

The first batch of 18 Rafale fighters in flyaway condition is likely to reach the Indian skies only in 2015 which gives the IAF adequate time to carefully prepare the support infrastructure for the Rafale. At least initially, the IAF will most probably house the first squadron at Gwalior, the Mirage-2000 base. Given Indian flying conditions, the IAF will also have to ensure a relatively bird-free flying environment.

It must be noted that though the Rafale may cost less than the Eurofighter, it is still awfully expensive. Unit costs of upwards of USD 100-125 million or Rs. 500-625 crore have been mentioned. The aircraft's upkeep and maintenance would thus demand a very high level of training and skills both by the pilots and technical personnel. We simply cannot afford stupid mistakes. This would require a fundamental change in our outlook to peacetime operations where availability of support services such as weather forecasting, air traffic control, ground infrastructure such as clean and clear runways and navigation and radar facilities would have to be ensured on a 24/7 basis. Murphy's Law operates even in today's hi-tech environment, perhaps even more so. Peacetime flying operations are as demanding as those in war. The IAF will have to quickly train its pilots and support personnel to make the Rafale fully operational in good time.
Rafale Wins the MMRCA Competition | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

 

[weg]

Does this mean that EFT still has a chance?. I kept hearing that EFT does have a chance, however i did not know that it was for real, how can the government justify that you announce Rafale as the winner and then make Typhoon the winner wouldn't that lead to people wondering if there is an angle of corruption in the deal. Is there an option in the tender that allows the L2 to re-submit the price-bid.

They can do anything they like. BAE has already offered to take the lead on the sales from EADS and they are the second biggest defense contractor in the world. Watch them cut the EF price to beat the Rafale. This is an election issue in several countries, they will not give up.

India gains of course, they will get paid to take these aircraft from France or UK/Germany/Italy/Spain. Aggressive haggling is par for the course when it comes to deals like this and NOTHING has been signed - so its all wide open.

I'm still convinced the the IAF wants the best fighter and is using the Rafale to screw the best price, which they will certainly get.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Rafale Wins the MMRCA Competition

The IAF had always rooted for the Rafale and hence it should be happy and satisfied over a job well done considering the complexity and the time delays involved when a large number of decision makers are in the loop. One of the reasons the IAF favoured this fighter, besides intrinsic merit, is its experience with the Mirage-2000 fighters acquired in 1984-85. The Mirage was used first in the opening phase in Sri Lanka. Later the Mirage also proved its superior technology during the 1999 Kargil conflict when the small enemy targets at high altitude could not be successfully engaged with other strike fighters. The Mirage-2000 fleet has maintained a very high serviceability and utilisation rate and above all an unbelievably envious flight safety record. It is hoped that the Rafale would prove equally effective and economical in the long run. The main reason for the high serviceability of the Mirage-2000 fleet, I am told, is the near instant availability of spares and technical support from the French Dassault and the Thales team, and a state of the art avionics laboratory in Gwalior that is more sterile than the best hospital's Intensive Care Unit (ICU). Considering that the quality of technical manpower is about the same across the IAF, it must be the Western technology, training and SOPs formulated by the French and the constantly close interaction between the user and the provider that are responsible for the success of the Mirage-2000 fleet. It is perhaps for this reason that India has chosen to upgrade the Mirage-2000 fleet for a whopping USD 1.8 billion. The IAF will surely do the same with the Rafale to obtain timely spares and maintenance support.

Full article:
http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/Rafa...rphadke_060212

 

[p2prada]

Rafale isn't designed keeping LO in mind Armand. It has a low RCS, probably 5 to 10 times smaller than Mirage-2000, but is not low observable. The F-22 is something like 1000 times smaller than the F-15 in RCS. That's VLO. F-35 would be around 100 times smaller than the F-16, that's LO.

Did you forget Garud 2010, where IAF MKIs had better situational awareness using training signals than the French did? If Rafale was the equivalent of the F-35, that wouldn't have been the case. Come on Armand, the Rafale was designed in the late 70s and the early 80s. First flight was in 1986 and the structural differences between then and now aren't that dissimilar.

The only aircraft today with a massive unassailable lead over any other aircraft is the F-22. EF, Rafale and MKI don't compare. The gap between 3rd gen and 4th gen is very small. The gap between 4th gen and 5th gen is massive. Too massive to be bridged as easily.