Know Your 'Rafale'

[H.A.]

IDSA COMMENT
Rafale Wins the MMRCA Competition
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Ramesh Phadke

February 6, 2012

..............................The first batch of 18 Rafale fighters in flyaway condition is likely to reach the Indian skies only in 2015 which gives the IAF adequate time to carefully prepare the support infrastructure for the Rafale. At least initially, the IAF will most probably house the first squadron at Gwalior, the Mirage-2000 base. Given Indian flying conditions, the IAF will also have to ensure a relatively bird-free flying environment.............................................

The tenders for that have already been raised by IAF HQ DELHI and as far as i am aware the technical bids of this tender have already been open.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Mica deal signed !

It's done. MBDA has signed on Monday, January 30, a contract for delivery of 493 missiles air-air medium-range Mica (Mica IR / MS)[...]

Mégacontrat pour MBDA en Inde

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Rafale comes home

The much delayed process of aircraft acquisition and the excruciatingly tough trials to evaluate the six aircraft on offer has finally led to the shortlisting of the French Rafale as the key MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) for the coming years. But there are many items on the acquisition chart to be ticked still, and knowing the complex business of the arms market, the possibilities of unknown roadblocks or at least hiccups may still have to be overcome — although the end result may remain unchanged from what today looks like the final choice.
[...]
The selection of the Rafale as the IAF's next MMRCA still has quite a distance to go, although professionally it proves that the IAF's expectations of acquiring more of the Mirage 2000, since the end of 2000, was professionally sound. At another level, though this factor did not play a part in the current procedure, France has been a reliable partner in India's quest for self-reliance in combat aircraft except that previous attempts to manufacture them in India had not borne fruit

Full article:
Rafale comes home - Indian Express

 

[vanadium]

BAe isn't even recognised as the vendor. EF consortium was represented by Germany and only they can communicate the offer. The bidding process is over so no new bids will be entertained.

If Dassault were in Cassidian´s (EADS) position in India, they would come back with an improved commercial offer as they have just done in Switzerland.

 

[mayfair]

Mica deal signed !

M�gacontrat pour MBDA en Inde

Does this deal include any technology transfer?

Or licensed manufacturing option even?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Does this deal include any technology transfer?

Or licensed manufacturing option even?

No tot as there are no Short range A2A missile program in India..

Direct purchase..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Nagraj]

From the french press:-
Rafale : jusqu'o� aller dans le transfert de technologie ? - LeMonde.fr
Gust: how far to go in technology transfer?
The question is not only economic, but eminently political. The contract of sale of Rafale to the Indian Army is not even signed yet that the issue of technology transfer, one of the clauses of the contract concerned - especially on the left.
"This shift (...) leads to [creation] of competitors in a country that is not third world but that is a huge emerging market" , felt, Tuesday, Jan. 31, Paul Quiles , former Minister of the Socialist defense. For his part, Jean-Yves Le Drian, responsible for defense with Francois Hollande , the Socialist candidate for president, called for "careful consideration" of the contract clauses in this area.



On the right, welcomes contrary to the export of French skills. "With this very important export contract, the expertise of our country who is honored as the Rafale meets very Many of the most sophisticated technologies " , rejoiced Tuesday, the president of the National Assembly, Bernard Accoyer . No worries either side of the defense minister, Gerard Longuet , for whom this clause of the contract is "natural" .

LICENSED PRODUCTION

The issue of transfer of clean technology to the Rafale - which includes knowledge , and technical expertise - arises all the more acute than it is the first time the iconic plane of the French arms industry is exported. But contract details were not arrested, it is difficult at present to make an idea of the magnitude of this transfer.

Only certainty, it is included, as is the production and maintenance in the contract, a source of Indian defense ministry, would reach $ 12 billion (9 billion). The champion of the Indian aviation HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. ) will produce under license, Bangalore, 108 of the 126 aircraft ordered.

However, technology transfer is unlikely to be proportional to the percentage of production that will be made "‹"‹locally. "We do not yet know the scope of the knowledge transmitted. all depends on what is assembled or produced locally. But it is clear that any country has an army will not reveal specific techniques to defend himself " , said Didier Adda , industrial property consulting firm in TPC (Technology Advices ).

"If it is, for example, to assemble parts, technology transfer is low " , he relativizes. For him, "This sale will allow Dassault to promote research and development on next-generation Rafale and the Indians to acquire new skills. Moreover, emerging markets do not sign contracts that include more than one transfer of technology. "

MAINTENANCE , A STRATEGIC ISSUE

When purchasing, in 2009, four submarines of the French naval group DCNS, Brazil had also demanded significant transfers of technology, especially for construction. Dozens of Brazilians working in the sector have since come to be training in Lorient, a school created for this purpose.

The challenge is to find out where the perimeter of the training stops and what is the limit not to cross in communication skills, especially those who are still developing.

Because countries are greedy buyers: to title for example, the U.S. aircraft manufacturer Boeing had promised to Brazilians, buyers of its products, a full assembly on site and airplanes.

The challenge is also based on the question of maintenance of equipment sold, under the contract. If maintenance of the Rafale is France, it enables Dassault to keep control of the manufacture and improvement of the parts. Conversely, if the maintenance is done in India, it includes a term technology transfer far more important.

Yet even if this were the case, "the Indians are not yet ready to compete with France in the aviation industry " , said Mr Adda, adding that "they may be in a few decades" .

An estimate broad enough to allow time to Dassault consolidate its lead in emerging countries eager to learn but who have several decades of research and development to catch up .

 

[Nagraj]

New Delhi faces the challenge of producing on its soil
CORRESPONDENCE NEW DELHI - India has an aging fleet of combat aircraft and needs, quickly, new devices to maintain its air defense. Its neighbors China and Pakistan, with whom relations are strained, are beginning to rearm and develop jointly hunters.
"In the long run, India needs 300 new combat aircraft and it is not impossible that the commands of Rafale to be increased" , said Shiv Aroor , Indian specialist defense sector.
In the immediate need the purchase of 126 French aircraft is finalized. S exclusive negotiations will ' commit between France, India and Dassault, to determine the pace of delivery of the Rafale and finalize the technical and financial aspects of the contract.



They will be long and delicate in the difficult economic climate facing the country, especially after the country's currency, the rupee has dropped against the dollar in 2011. In April 2011, all candidates, only the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon European consortium had been selected by the Indian Air Force for their technical performance. It was then select the offer "lowest bidder" - the cheapest - as required by the Rules of Procedure.

This is the cost of "operational maintenance" of the unit for forty years, including maintenance costs, maintenance and operation, which was predominant, and not the price of the appliance unit. The French aircraft manufacturer has benefited from another advantage: its combat aircraft exported to India in 1953, are known and appreciated by the Indian military. The Mirage 2000, used by the army during the Kargil war against Pakistan in 1999, played a significant role in his victory.

Dassault is preparing to make many sacrifices in terms of technology transfer and industrial offsets. Nearly half of the contract, if signed, will benefit to Indian companies. This is the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) that is approached to assemble the Rafale.

SUCCESSFUL RELATIONSHIPS

The defense industry of the country, open to the private sector there are only eleven years, but remains essentially composed of public enterprises, she will be able to absorb transfers and cooperate with Dassault on a plane as advanced technologically? "This is a challenge, Shiv Aroor concedes. industrial offsets will not happen automatically in the defense sector in the strict sense. They can also relate to civil aviation or the production of software. " Until the construction of assembly line in Bangalore, the first 18 Rafale will be assembled in France, and delivered within 36 months from the date of contract signature.

Dassault's victory will strengthen the already fruitful relations between France and India, since 2010 in Areva signed a framework agreement with New Delhi to supply two EPR "‹"‹reactors. The visit of French Prime Minister Francois Fillon, in India, which hung to the result of the tender on combat aircraft, should ultimamately be held soon.

 

[SPIEZ]

When Pratibha Patil travelled to Europe last October, she and others in her entourage had a pleasant surprise in the sky. At one point along the air space that the President's flight was using, half a squadron of Eurofighters appeared on both sides of her Air India plane.

In the graceful style of these sleek war machines, they escorted the presidential aircraft to its safe landing at Patil's next destination. Even so, those manning the Eurofighters could not resist showing off.

When the Eurofighters displayed the prowess of this advanced new-generation, multi-role combat aircraft to the President, members of Parliament and senior officials accompanying her, New Delhi's quest for 126 planes of its kind could not have been far from the minds of their pilots.

The competition for the biggest military aviation deal in history, which began 11 years ago when the defence ministry initiated its "request for information" or RFI, had just entered its final and decisive phase.

But the impromptu decision to send the Eurofighters across European skies to impress the President was typical of what cost some rivals of Dassault Aviation — last week's winners — the lucrative Indian Air Force contract.

It was somewhat reminiscent of Henry Kissinger's disastrous invitation to defence minister Jagjivan Ram to visit Washington in 1971 as the sub-continent was heading into war, as recounted by Rukmini Menon, who was then joint secretary for the US in South Block.

"Why should I visit Washington?" Ram asked a non-plussed Kissinger and proceeded to tell him how American arms supplies had emboldened Pakistan to ruthlessly suppress East Pakistanis.

Partly, it was a similar approach that resulted in Boeing's F-18E and Lockheed Martin's F-16E being turfed out of the competition for the IAF deal earlier in the race. Not solely with the multi-role combat aircraft deal in mind, the Obama administration had made too much noise bereft of substance about the first state visit of his administration and Barack Obama's first state dinner in honour of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

There was a time when India's rulers could solely be influenced by gimmicks. But theatrics and atmospherics can no longer substitute hard policy options. This is one lesson New Delhi has hopefully absorbed firsthand from intense, albeit under the radar interaction with Israelis — especially in defence matters — in the last 20 years.

Then there was A.K. Antony, whom the losers in the bid for the IAF deal had not reckoned with. Antony, by nature, is averse to being the public face of decision-making. This has been the case throughout his tenure as defence minister, especially during scandals such as the Adarsh housing scam that rocked the army. Each time it was clear that the defence minister had made up his mind, but the decisions were put out as if they were taken elsewhere, along the proper channel.

Such an approach came through clearly in his most detailed statement on January 31 on the controversy about the army chief's age. Ending months of virtual silence in the matter, Antony blamed the army for sitting on the problem for 36 years and then dealing with it in its own wisdom. So much so the army chief Gen. V.K. Singh had to agree with the minister.

Antony has maintained in public throughout that the multi-role combat aircraft acquisition process is a technical matter that would be decided by professionals in uniform. But such a public position overlooks the reality that Antony's core support team in his ministry is much more ideological than in any other wing of the present government. Like civil servants, men in uniform are not immune from ministerial winds blowing in a particular direction.

Ideological considerations have prevented Antony from visiting Israel and from signing at least three defence agreements with the Americans which his core team views as compromising India's strategic autonomy.

If the Russian plane on offer, MiG-35, had not clearly failed the tests, it was conceivable that it would very much have been in the reckoning. With the Russians out of the way, it did weigh with the political leadership in the defence ministry that France favours a multi-polar world and that India is a beneficiary of such an approach.

France won the bid for the entire order because it supplemented the requirements of the global tender with sweeteners that in the real world of strategic engagement, only three countries can offer India: Russia and Israel, in addition to France itself.

The collaborations that France has offered India in recent years in the field of intelligence sharing and upgrade are without parallel. Naturally, this is an area where co-operation cannot be publicised by the very nature of such engagement.

India and France face somewhat similar threats of domestic terrorism, vastly different from the threats faced by the US, Russia or even Israel. The assistance that Paris has offered New Delhi in preparing the country against such threats and the constant upgrading of their assistance went a long way towards creating an environment that favoured the French on the aircraft deal.

It was in direct contrast to Washington's approach: the bulk of India's intelligence community and key bureaucrats at decision-making levels believe that the Americans two-timed New Delhi on David Coleman Headley, their double agent in Chicago who played a major role in the Pakistan-supported terrorist attack on Mumbai in 2008.

In addition, spread across India's entire political spectrum that includes much of the Opposition, is a firm conviction that India would not have come out unscathed from the decision to conduct the 1998 nuclear tests if it were not for the steadfast backing that President Jacques Chirac — and Nicolas Sarkozy after him — offered India in an hour of great need.

It is not widely known that during the Kargil war in 1999, the French approved with lightning speed the adaptation of Indian Air Force Mirages in tandem with equally speedy Israeli supplies of laser-guided bombs which they delivered in Srinagar: without such French and Israeli support, India could have lost Kargil to Pervez Musharraf's perfidy.

No honourable Indian in uniform can forget that in such a situation, the US or Britain would have probably suspended all military supplies to the combatants to prove their bona fides as honest brokers for peace.

Policies may be the result of collective decision-making in governments, but within that framework, individuals do matter. One such individual who has left a mark on Franco-Indian relations is Jean-David Levitte, whose critical role in securing the Rafale deal for his country will never become a matter of public record because of the nature of his job.

Levitte is diplomatic adviser and "Sherpa" to Sarkozy, who made amends for the temperamental mistakes during his President's first visit to India as chief guest during Republic Day celebrations in New Delhi and organised a second trip that turned out to be one of most productive and substantive visits by any head of state to India.

Levitte was senior diplomatic adviser to Chirac too when Brajesh Mishra, the then principal secretary to Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, flew to Paris as his first stop abroad seeking diplomatic support after the Pokhran II nuclear tests. Mishra found such support in Paris before he extracted reluctant support from Moscow.

Soon afterwards, Levitte became French permanent representative to the UN in New York where he led, along with Russia, a split among the five permanent members of the Security Council on the issue of punishing India through sanctions on the nuclear issue. Later he was ambassador in Washington.

Two of the countries which have been after the multi-role combat aircraft deal, the US and Britain, were at that time in the forefront of efforts in the Security Council to choke India into submission and roll back its nuclear programme.

Within the political and civilian leadership of India's defence establishment, there has been no doubt that other things being equal, India should reward a friend in need, in this case, France.



Why India chose Rafale | idrw.org

India conveys its concern over weapon sales to Pakistan | The Nation

The Hindu : News / National : India expresses concern to France over military sales to Pakistan

 

[vanadium]

Rafale isn't designed keeping LO in mind Armand. It has a low RCS, probably 5 to 10 times smaller than Mirage-2000, but is not low observable. The F-22 is something like 1000 times smaller than the F-15 in RCS. That's VLO. F-35 would be around 100 times smaller than the F-16, that's LO.

Did you forget Garud 2010, where IAF MKIs had better situational awareness using training signals than the French did? If Rafale was the equivalent of the F-35, that wouldn't have been the case. Come on Armand, the Rafale was designed in the late 70s and the early 80s. First flight was in 1986 and the structural differences between then and now aren't that dissimilar.

The only aircraft today with a massive unassailable lead over any other aircraft is the F-22. EF, Rafale and MKI don't compare. The gap between 3rd gen and 4th gen is very small. The gap between 4th gen and 5th gen is massive. Too massive to be bridged as easily.

The gap between the F-22 and an IAF configuration EF Typhoon is not as massive as it is believed:

Thrust-to-weight ratio; wing loading and fuel fraction: basically the same
Kinematic performance more or less the same
Supercruise higher in F-22 (EJ200 growth potential 15% - 20% and Thrust Vectoring option can reduce the gap)
Firepower same in quantity (6MRM + 2SRM internally carried vs semi-conformal for EF)
Firepower lethality: EF superior with Meteor
Radar: Very big aperture fixed AESA in F-22 vs big aperture re-positionable AESA in EF (big azimuth coverage of 200 deg is key factor in BVR engagement success)
E/O Sensors: IRST was dropped from F-22 original spec due to budget; IRST on EF designed to pick up stealthy targets (e.g. aerodynamic heat)
Datalink: F-22 receive mode only; EF bi-directional allows for clever tactics (passive attacks)
ESM: believed to be more powerful in F-22
AECM: no reliable info on F-22; in EF perfectly matched to its reduced RCS and with towed decoys
Signatures: VLO vs reduced signature
Mission availability: reduced in F-22 due to high maintenance of VLO (this is 1980s technology) vs high availability in EF

Bottom line:
The F-22 is the top air superiority fighter currently in operation, but with reduced mission availability and very high cost of operation (and to procure). The aircraft has limited A-G capability and little growth foreseen in this mission area.

EF Typhoon in IAF config. improves significantly its air superiority performance thanks to the new radar and Meteor missiles. Optional growth in engine thrust and TVC can further reduce the gap. Its superior mission availability means its productivity is superior to F-22. Typhoon in IAF config. is a full multirole fighter and with excellent growth in this mission area. A more cost-effective solution.

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafale isn't designed keeping LO in mind Armand. It has a low RCS, probably 5 to 10 times smaller than Mirage-2000, but is not low observable. The F-22 is something like 1000 times smaller than the F-15 in RCS. That's VLO. F-35 would be around 100 times smaller than the F-16, that's LO.

Low observable means LPI radar and RCS under .5m^2, VLO is LPI and under 0.01^m2. PAK FA is LO same as a clean Rafale. F-22 is VLO. Rafale RCS is 10 times less the M2000 according to Dassault engineers, or .3m^2. When Rafale puts on obtrusive stores it ceases to be LO. Only CFT and LO Scalp penetration config keeps it LO.

Did you forget Garud 2010, where IAF MKIs had better situational awareness using training signals than the French did? If Rafale was the equivalent of the F-35, that wouldn't have been the case. Come on Armand, the Rafale was designed in the late 70s and the early 80s. First flight was in 1986 and the structural differences between then and now aren't that dissimilar.

I remember that an interview with our M2000 pilot said France won pretty much everything. How despite MKIs powerful radar even M2000 was able to defeat it by coming in at the angle to stay out of its limited cone coverage. I also remember BVR was in full play and MKIs were using simulated R-77s, not training signals.

The only aircraft today with a massive unassailable lead over any other aircraft is the F-22. EF, Rafale and MKI don't compare. The gap between 3rd gen and 4th gen is very small. The gap between 4th gen and 5th gen is massive. Too massive to be bridged as easily.

Yeah, but F-22 production has ended and no country is getting it. It is a hanger queen that never sees combat and a total waste of money. F-35 is the fighter of proliferation and Rafale can fly circles around it. The export version has compromised stealth and little better than a clean Rafale if you take the canards and probe off. I will stick with my Rafales and NEURON ucavs.

 

[JAISWAL]

Wake up and smell the curry:- India spurns Mother England's peanuts
.
Source- Wake up and smell the curry India spurns Mother Englands peanuts - Page 1 | Firstpost
.
The Brits are in a tizzy. "What on earth do they
know about cricket and curries?" sniffed Tory MP
Peter Bone when he heard France's Dassault had
emerged as the lowest bid for India's $10 billion jet
fighter contract.
Well, wake up and smell the curry, MP Bone.
Curry is YOUR national dish. India is now firmly
multi-cuisine. It is sampling the world, looking for
the best bargain on offer. There's no time for
sentimentality in a dog-eat-dog world. Old
loyalties count for little. While the stuffy brown
sahib clubs in Calcutta might still hold onto starchy
British era dress rules, the rest of the country is in
a tearing hurry to be top dog. There's no time to
lose. China is already testing its fifth generation
stealth fighter, the Chengdu J-20.
The Brits, as Tristram Hunt points out in The
Guardian still think they have an "in" because they
laid the railways, nurtured the bureaucracy, even
designed the parliament. And this is the thanks
they get. Not even a lousy airplane contract.
How much sharper than a serpent's tooth it is, to
have a thankless child!
India does have a law on its books that requires
children to take care of their parents. Could that be
invoked here to help Mother England out? What's
particularly galling of course is that India learned to
put self above others from the British Raj.
During the 1929 Great Depression, London happily
adopted trade policies that protected Britain and
ruined India. Farmers had to sell off their gold and
silver to repay debt. The Viceroy's reaction? "For
the first time in history, owing to the economic
situation, Indians are disgorging gold," wrote Lord
Willingdon. "We have sent to London in the past
two or three months, 25,000,000 sterling and I
hope that process will continue."
Now that the tables are turned, the Brits are
apoplectic. "Britain can no longer justify sending
aid to India," trumpeted The Sun newspaper.....
.
..,........For full article please visit above source......

 

[JAISWAL]

all you want to ever know about Rafale.

Know your Rafale: India's latest Fighter Aircraft acquisition
.
http://aame.in/2012/02/know-your-ra...tm_campaign=Feed:+Shubhspace/blog+(AA+Me)&m=1

 

[Armand2REP]

I'm still convinced the the IAF wants the best fighter and is using the Rafale to screw the best price, which they will certainly get.

We know you are an EF fanboy, but don't let your feelings cloud your senses. There is no chance GoI is going to entertain anything from the UK after all the smack their media and MPs have been saying over the aid issue. It is an international embarrassment. Not to mention any coup in the process would bring the whole tender to cancellation. This is India we are talking about. Rafale is the MMRCA, just accept it.

 

[weg]

We know you are an EF fanboy, but don't let your feelings cloud your senses. There is no chance GoI is going to entertain anything from the UK after all the smack their media and MPs have been saying over the aid issue.

So they will reject a bid that is cheaper for a better aircraft becuase of pride? They aren't French you know.

And a cheaper bid will be offered, so if nothing else, prepare for another hair cut.

 

[trackwhack]

So they will reject a bid that is cheaper for a better aircraft becuase of pride? They aren't French you know.

And a cheaper bid will be offered, so if nothing else, prepare for another hair cut.

Better aircraft??? ... meh..

Depends on functionality. There is no better aircraft among the two. Both have trade-offs and advantages.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Dassault offering brings to the Federal dilemma

...The business is controlled from the top Did days in France: An adviser to President Nicolas Sarkozy said on Sunday in the "evening news" on Swiss television, which is why the French company Dassault Rafale his fighters offering suddenly cheaper than the competition. Production costs would sink because of a major contract in India, he said. This has allowed the offer "bien meilleur" for Switzerland. Last week it was revealed that India wants to buy 126 Rafale jets. Shortly before the president made Dassault security policy commissions (SIK) attention to the new conditions...

http://translate.google.at/translate...ory/14784098



Sancho`s post at Mp.net:

(Google translated)
Kind of interesting, seems like it wasn't just an estimation when Serge Dassaults said things about a possible win within 2 weeks. If the cost reduction in Swiss was based on lower production costs in India, Dassault must have known about Indias decision not by last week, but possibly even several weeks ago.

:cool2:

 

[ace009]

Ahhh - if it is all about Price - as GoI has claimed, then a cheaper EF should win. If not, then we have to think about what the real deal is ... right?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Ahhh - if it is all about Price - as GoI has claimed, then a cheaper EF should win. If not, then we have to think about what the real deal is ... right?

Its not all about price it also about amount of ToT transferable.