pmaitra
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Know Your 'Rafale'
- Thread starter A.V.
- Start date
You are just a EF fanboy, but you could make an effort to see the facts clearly.
Better aircraft? A wishful thinking.
5 out of 5 technical evaluations concluded that Rafale was better and the Indians downselected it with the EF after a 640 point evaluation. Pls let other, better placed people in India conclude which fighter is the more appropriate. You are not in the position to give lessons.
EF was just characterized by delays and cost explosions so far and neither does have air2surface capabilities nor an Aesa radar so far. It has nothing concrete to provide, only paper. Forget about it. If the French get the contracts in UAE, Katar and Kuwait your 'darling' will almost be KO. And this becomes more and more likely. Rafale could have a great future ahead.
Pls accept that the French offered the better package and not only the lower price, even if it is a personal disaster. That's what you would have expected from the others, if EF had won the tender. The game is over, unless the negotiations fail.
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JAISWAL
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pmaitra
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Arundo,
I am assuming you are German. I like your mature comments. I believe Germany also had a stake in the success of the Typhoon. Yet, Germans don't seem to be particularly upset about India's decision to select the Rafale. Neither are the other two countries. Why are the British so upset? Oh, I get it now: The once vassal of Britain picking the historical foes of the British, i.e. the French, over them? All emotional nonsense. Commonsense dictates exactly what you wrote.
Good one!
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You are bullshitting mate. Though I dont fault you. Losing a $20 billion contract can do that to people.
UK is a US poodle and will follow US policy without as much as questioning it. They have to. They are maintaining a semblance of big power complex only due to US and they are not called the 51st state of USA for no reason.
Germany is constitution bound not to supply weapons to countries engaging in war. So theoretically during a Indo-Pak or Sino-Indian war Germany will not be supplying any spares.
No one cares about Spain and Italy.
So when the two countries , those which matter, of the four in the EFT consortium are doubtful of reliable supply of parts during war, and when the other (France) has already passed the reliablity test by steadfastedly standing by us during the Nuclear explosions and Kargil war..it becomes quite easy for us to chose which fighter is goodd for our doctrine.
In this case it is the Rafale.
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LETHALFORCE
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India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil - The Times of India
India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil
NEW DELHI: In an unusual bilateral tie-up, India has agreed to share with Brazil some of its experiences of carrying out an open tender evaluation to select a fighter for the over $10 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) contract. Brazil is presently in the process of selecting a fighter for its air force.
India conveyed its willingness to share some of its documentation on the MMRCA contract during a meeting between defence minister AK Antony and his Brazilian counterpart Celso Amorim.
"Brazil is in the process of buying a fighter jet. You have already reached the final stages of the fighter selection for the air force. They have promised to give us some documents on the selection process, such as basic rules on the tender process that we could compare to ours," Amorim told TOI.
Amorim met Antony and national security advisor Shiv Shankar Menon on Monday in New Delhi, and the two sides held bilateral defence consultations at various levels.
Amorim said Brazil was eager to learn from India's process of finalizing Rafale, the French fighter, for the over $10 billion MMRCA contract. It is one of the world's biggest defence tenders right now.
Brazil is looking to buy 36 new fighters for its air force. The tender had left it open to the possibility of the number of fighters going up to 120. The tender could run into several billion dollars, though the initial estimate was just $2.2 billion. Brazil has already made a pre-selection of three fighters - Rafale, F-18 and Gripen-NG and one will finally be selected.
"Wherever there is a possibility we should always look for sharing of experience, of course while respecting confidentiality," Amorim said. "Sharing of experience doesn't mean we follow your decision," he added. The minister also said they would be looking at discussing Indian experience of building a fifth generation fighter with Russia.
Brazil is also providing India an exclusively developed catalogue of NATO military equipment, in which India was interested, he said.
India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil
NEW DELHI: In an unusual bilateral tie-up, India has agreed to share with Brazil some of its experiences of carrying out an open tender evaluation to select a fighter for the over $10 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) contract. Brazil is presently in the process of selecting a fighter for its air force.
India conveyed its willingness to share some of its documentation on the MMRCA contract during a meeting between defence minister AK Antony and his Brazilian counterpart Celso Amorim.
"Brazil is in the process of buying a fighter jet. You have already reached the final stages of the fighter selection for the air force. They have promised to give us some documents on the selection process, such as basic rules on the tender process that we could compare to ours," Amorim told TOI.
Amorim met Antony and national security advisor Shiv Shankar Menon on Monday in New Delhi, and the two sides held bilateral defence consultations at various levels.
Amorim said Brazil was eager to learn from India's process of finalizing Rafale, the French fighter, for the over $10 billion MMRCA contract. It is one of the world's biggest defence tenders right now.
Brazil is looking to buy 36 new fighters for its air force. The tender had left it open to the possibility of the number of fighters going up to 120. The tender could run into several billion dollars, though the initial estimate was just $2.2 billion. Brazil has already made a pre-selection of three fighters - Rafale, F-18 and Gripen-NG and one will finally be selected.
"Wherever there is a possibility we should always look for sharing of experience, of course while respecting confidentiality," Amorim said. "Sharing of experience doesn't mean we follow your decision," he added. The minister also said they would be looking at discussing Indian experience of building a fifth generation fighter with Russia.
Brazil is also providing India an exclusively developed catalogue of NATO military equipment, in which India was interested, he said.
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200 Rafale in India, 120 in Brasil, 60 UAE, 60 Qatar/Kuwait, 24 Malaysia ... makes for a nice portfolio.
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India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil
India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil | idrw.org
India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil | idrw.org
JAISWAL
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A dogfight over Delhi | idrw.org
++
.
.
A dogfight over Delhi
Published February 8, 2012
SOURCE:-FINANCIAL TIMES
.
.
Sir Stephen Dalton, the UK's chief of air staff,
hurtled down the runway behind the controls of
a Russian-designed Sukhoi-30 at the Kalaikunda
air base in West Bengal. The deafening roar of the
engines of the mainstay of the Indian air force
swept over a small band of observers gathered
just over a year ago in the rising tropical heat.
Minutes later, a Royal Air Force Eurofighter
Typhoon built by a British, German, Italian and
Spanish consortium took to the skies as part of a
staged dogfight with India's French Mirages and
Russian aircraft, designed to impress officials
seeking to modernise an ageing fleet. Its near-
vertical take-off was met with awed admiration.
Within the sights of Sir Stephen, a veteran of the
first Gulf war – as well as his political masters and
hundreds of aerospace executives – was one of
the world's most sought-after jet fighter
contracts. London, Paris and Washington were all
vying to re-equip the world's largest democracy
with 126 fighters – about one-10th of the force –
seeing it as a chance to put a seal on a defining
bilateral relationship of the 21st century.
Worth up to $20bn, the deal to supply India –
with its fast-growing economy and geopolitical
status, and concern about the threat from
Pakistan to the north and China to the east –
offered a European defence establishment
suffering shrinking military budgets back home
the chance to reshape the industry landscape.
But the mock battle was the closest the Typhoon
came to the target. New Delhi last week chose
Dassault's Rafale over the Eurofighter at the end of
an eight-year competition. The significance of the
agreement is being compared to that of the UK's
record al-Yamama deal with Saudi Arabia, signed
in the 1980s. Optimists say it could be signed
within eight months, joining a $9.3bn agreement
for France to supply India with two nuclear plants
and another to build it a modern conventional
submarine fleet worth $4bn.
"This is a major win for France, and a major loss
for the UK "¦ French political backing has been
essential in strengthening the French bid and the
Rafale win is therefore also a major victory for
President Nicolas Sarkozy," says Endre Lunde, an
aerospace and defence consultant at IHS Jane's, a
defence consultancy.
Rafale's selection is a bitter disappointment for all
four nations in the consortium, and highlights
Indian doubts about a pan-European partnership
at a time of financial and political strain on the
continent.
It has a particular sting for David Cameron. The
UK prime minister identified the Indian market as
one of the most important for Britain's exporters
– but this opening gambit to his premiership has
shown scant return even though accompanied
by £1bn of aid in the next four years.
The decision also deals a blow to Mr Cameron's
attempt to style himself a champion of trade
missions led by the private sector – unlike
France's dirigiste approach – and of Britain's
dwindling manufacturing base.
Eurofighter's backers thought it the lead
contender, bringing more advanced technology
and strategic clout than the Rafale, which had not
been sold outside France. Their confidence soared
after US rivals – Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet
and Lockheed Martin's F-16 Super Viper – were
knocked out of the highly secretive medium
multi-role combat aircraft contest last year.
In London and Berlin, contractors salivated at the
idea of harnessing via industrial partnership a
greater share of India's $36bn annual defence
budget – one of the world's largest, and probably
a third of China's. A big European purchase
would shift India away from reliance on Russia
and show the US was not the only alternative as
Delhi sought to rearm itself in light of mounting
concerns about a more assertive Beijing.
The executives of the consortium partners were
convinced Eurofighter offered a superior so-called
"4th generation" aircraft suited to aerial combat
and able to strike targets on the ground. They
were also confident they had priced it
competitively, in spite of some analysts' claims
that the Rafale was up to 10 per cent cheaper.
.
. . . . , . . , for full article please go to above link
++
.
.
A dogfight over Delhi
Published February 8, 2012
SOURCE:-FINANCIAL TIMES
.
.
Sir Stephen Dalton, the UK's chief of air staff,
hurtled down the runway behind the controls of
a Russian-designed Sukhoi-30 at the Kalaikunda
air base in West Bengal. The deafening roar of the
engines of the mainstay of the Indian air force
swept over a small band of observers gathered
just over a year ago in the rising tropical heat.
Minutes later, a Royal Air Force Eurofighter
Typhoon built by a British, German, Italian and
Spanish consortium took to the skies as part of a
staged dogfight with India's French Mirages and
Russian aircraft, designed to impress officials
seeking to modernise an ageing fleet. Its near-
vertical take-off was met with awed admiration.
Within the sights of Sir Stephen, a veteran of the
first Gulf war – as well as his political masters and
hundreds of aerospace executives – was one of
the world's most sought-after jet fighter
contracts. London, Paris and Washington were all
vying to re-equip the world's largest democracy
with 126 fighters – about one-10th of the force –
seeing it as a chance to put a seal on a defining
bilateral relationship of the 21st century.
Worth up to $20bn, the deal to supply India –
with its fast-growing economy and geopolitical
status, and concern about the threat from
Pakistan to the north and China to the east –
offered a European defence establishment
suffering shrinking military budgets back home
the chance to reshape the industry landscape.
But the mock battle was the closest the Typhoon
came to the target. New Delhi last week chose
Dassault's Rafale over the Eurofighter at the end of
an eight-year competition. The significance of the
agreement is being compared to that of the UK's
record al-Yamama deal with Saudi Arabia, signed
in the 1980s. Optimists say it could be signed
within eight months, joining a $9.3bn agreement
for France to supply India with two nuclear plants
and another to build it a modern conventional
submarine fleet worth $4bn.
"This is a major win for France, and a major loss
for the UK "¦ French political backing has been
essential in strengthening the French bid and the
Rafale win is therefore also a major victory for
President Nicolas Sarkozy," says Endre Lunde, an
aerospace and defence consultant at IHS Jane's, a
defence consultancy.
Rafale's selection is a bitter disappointment for all
four nations in the consortium, and highlights
Indian doubts about a pan-European partnership
at a time of financial and political strain on the
continent.
It has a particular sting for David Cameron. The
UK prime minister identified the Indian market as
one of the most important for Britain's exporters
– but this opening gambit to his premiership has
shown scant return even though accompanied
by £1bn of aid in the next four years.
The decision also deals a blow to Mr Cameron's
attempt to style himself a champion of trade
missions led by the private sector – unlike
France's dirigiste approach – and of Britain's
dwindling manufacturing base.
Eurofighter's backers thought it the lead
contender, bringing more advanced technology
and strategic clout than the Rafale, which had not
been sold outside France. Their confidence soared
after US rivals – Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet
and Lockheed Martin's F-16 Super Viper – were
knocked out of the highly secretive medium
multi-role combat aircraft contest last year.
In London and Berlin, contractors salivated at the
idea of harnessing via industrial partnership a
greater share of India's $36bn annual defence
budget – one of the world's largest, and probably
a third of China's. A big European purchase
would shift India away from reliance on Russia
and show the US was not the only alternative as
Delhi sought to rearm itself in light of mounting
concerns about a more assertive Beijing.
The executives of the consortium partners were
convinced Eurofighter offered a superior so-called
"4th generation" aircraft suited to aerial combat
and able to strike targets on the ground. They
were also confident they had priced it
competitively, in spite of some analysts' claims
that the Rafale was up to 10 per cent cheaper.
.
. . . . , . . , for full article please go to above link
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MMRCA deal a shot in the arm for industry
Published February 8, 2012
SOURCE: Business-standard.com
The impending $12 billion contract to buy 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) by the defence ministry from Dassault, is set to be a game changer for the Indian aerospace and defence industries with as much as $6 billion worth of offset contracts expected to flow to Indian companies.
This deal, as and when signed, ensures that Dassault along with its two major suppliers Thales and Safran Group would place offset contracts on Indian vendors amounting to minimum of 50 per cent of the value which in this case could be $6 billion and this obligation would be co-terminus with fulfilment, which is 12 years span. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would be the lead production agency and would be in charge of assembly of the aircraft and engines. It would commence production by T+4 years. It would produce 20 aircraft a year at steady state (T+9 years) and deliver all 108 made in India by the 12th year. However, components, subsystems and services can be procured by the vendor (Dassault) or its OEMs from any Indian Defence Industry of their choice.
The three companies that constitute the vendor team, i.e. Dassault, Thales and Safran, have traditionally a strong presence and relationship with Indian companies. For example, the Safran group has already invested a lot in India through companies like Safran Engineering Services, Snecma HAL, Turbomeca India engines in aerospace and Morpho Detection, Smart Chip Ltd in homeland security and more such inflows are expected
KNOW-HOWS WHICH MAY BE TRANSFERRED
* On airframe side, technology relating to composites, super plastics, metal treatment and processes such as robotic riveting are crucial.
* On the engine side Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC), titanium casting, special coatings such as microflon, graphoil, processes such as radio crystallography, advance forging technologies are expected to be transferred to Indian companies.
* On the avionics side, state of the art radar, mission computer, head-mounted displays, auto pilot, moving maps and technology relating to inertial navigation systems, flight instrumentation, communication systems, low-intensity conflict electronic warfare systems are expected to be transferred.
* On aggregates, technology relating to landing gears, fuel systems, servo hydraulic systems, pneumatic systems, heat exchangers, ejection seats are likely to be transferred.
"As per Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2006 on which the contract is quoted, only HAL, a few defence PSUs and about 60 Indian Companies licensed by DOFA (Defence offset Agency) are eligible to share this offset pie and all procurement should be defence related only, with full value addition in India. However if the proposed new DPP 2012 or its immediate release in 2011 are applicable it would widen the catchment area including any product or Direct services relating to Defence, Commercial Aerospace or Homeland Security performed by any company of vendors choice licensed or otherwise. Also the offset obligation can be shared by Dassault or its main OEMs — Thales and Safran Group in a pro-rated basis. Retrospecting the new 2012 to this contract would definitely be a game changer," said Sampath Ravinarayanan, an industry expert, having served on the Board of Air India, Indian Airlines, Airbus Engineering India among others.
Ravinarayanan, one of the pioneers in private sector initiatives for Indian Defence sector added that the DPP 2012 is expected to be radically different incorporating most of industry concerns.
"The top three key points are providing incentives to OEMs by the way of offset multipliers if they work with SMEs, providing offset credits for technology transfer with incentives to OEM for buyback guarantees and providing incentive for more value addition in India. If these are announced in the new policy and retrospected for MMRCA contract, it would help India to create a necessary eco-system to compete in the global market place," he noted.
One of the key takeaways as this deal matures over a 12-year period will be that with new technology absorption, world class facilities, adaptation of cutting edge processes, systems and the skilled manpower would create a formidable ecosystem for India to compete in the global marketplace and become a significant player and net exporter.
"Of the $6 billion in offset money flowing into India, about 50 per cent would be spent on manpower. On an average of $20,000 per man year, this would mean 150,000 man years of new jobs in the defence aerospace industry. This would translate into 5,000 jobs in the3rd year and stabilise at 20,000 jobs in the ninth year. Also, all support services like maintenance, training and logistics have to be provided by Indian industries with the technology and knowhow of Dassault, Thales and Safran for the next 40 years. This could create an additional 4,000 jobs. The weapons system contract for the remaining 108 aircraft and its obligations could create additional 6,000 jobs. At the time of fulfilment my conservative assessment would be 30,000 trained, world class manpower would be deployed in Aerospace and Defence Industry. To put it in the perspective it is twice as many people we have now only on quantity," Ravinarayanan detailed.
Nidhi Goyal, Director, Deloitte in India further observed that the Indian companies are already working on setting up their facilities for manufacturing parts of the planes, such as aero structures, aero components, electronics, etc for providing support to the overseas suppliers and to Hindustan Aeronautics limited. They have also started the process of obtaining industrial licence and certifications from the overseas suppliers — Cemilac, DGQA.
While the benefits will be immense to this sector, it will further have a cascading effect on other industries as well. "Many of the technologies which will be transferred can be easily adapted to commercial Aerospace. Some of them would be useful in next generation Automobiles. Also avionics, communication & electronic warfare technologies would be useful in Homeland Security products," Ravinarayanan added.
MMRCA deal a shot in the arm for industry | idrw.org
Published February 8, 2012
SOURCE: Business-standard.com
The impending $12 billion contract to buy 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) by the defence ministry from Dassault, is set to be a game changer for the Indian aerospace and defence industries with as much as $6 billion worth of offset contracts expected to flow to Indian companies.
This deal, as and when signed, ensures that Dassault along with its two major suppliers Thales and Safran Group would place offset contracts on Indian vendors amounting to minimum of 50 per cent of the value which in this case could be $6 billion and this obligation would be co-terminus with fulfilment, which is 12 years span. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would be the lead production agency and would be in charge of assembly of the aircraft and engines. It would commence production by T+4 years. It would produce 20 aircraft a year at steady state (T+9 years) and deliver all 108 made in India by the 12th year. However, components, subsystems and services can be procured by the vendor (Dassault) or its OEMs from any Indian Defence Industry of their choice.
The three companies that constitute the vendor team, i.e. Dassault, Thales and Safran, have traditionally a strong presence and relationship with Indian companies. For example, the Safran group has already invested a lot in India through companies like Safran Engineering Services, Snecma HAL, Turbomeca India engines in aerospace and Morpho Detection, Smart Chip Ltd in homeland security and more such inflows are expected
KNOW-HOWS WHICH MAY BE TRANSFERRED
* On airframe side, technology relating to composites, super plastics, metal treatment and processes such as robotic riveting are crucial.
* On the engine side Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC), titanium casting, special coatings such as microflon, graphoil, processes such as radio crystallography, advance forging technologies are expected to be transferred to Indian companies.
* On the avionics side, state of the art radar, mission computer, head-mounted displays, auto pilot, moving maps and technology relating to inertial navigation systems, flight instrumentation, communication systems, low-intensity conflict electronic warfare systems are expected to be transferred.
* On aggregates, technology relating to landing gears, fuel systems, servo hydraulic systems, pneumatic systems, heat exchangers, ejection seats are likely to be transferred.
"As per Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2006 on which the contract is quoted, only HAL, a few defence PSUs and about 60 Indian Companies licensed by DOFA (Defence offset Agency) are eligible to share this offset pie and all procurement should be defence related only, with full value addition in India. However if the proposed new DPP 2012 or its immediate release in 2011 are applicable it would widen the catchment area including any product or Direct services relating to Defence, Commercial Aerospace or Homeland Security performed by any company of vendors choice licensed or otherwise. Also the offset obligation can be shared by Dassault or its main OEMs — Thales and Safran Group in a pro-rated basis. Retrospecting the new 2012 to this contract would definitely be a game changer," said Sampath Ravinarayanan, an industry expert, having served on the Board of Air India, Indian Airlines, Airbus Engineering India among others.
Ravinarayanan, one of the pioneers in private sector initiatives for Indian Defence sector added that the DPP 2012 is expected to be radically different incorporating most of industry concerns.
"The top three key points are providing incentives to OEMs by the way of offset multipliers if they work with SMEs, providing offset credits for technology transfer with incentives to OEM for buyback guarantees and providing incentive for more value addition in India. If these are announced in the new policy and retrospected for MMRCA contract, it would help India to create a necessary eco-system to compete in the global market place," he noted.
One of the key takeaways as this deal matures over a 12-year period will be that with new technology absorption, world class facilities, adaptation of cutting edge processes, systems and the skilled manpower would create a formidable ecosystem for India to compete in the global marketplace and become a significant player and net exporter.
"Of the $6 billion in offset money flowing into India, about 50 per cent would be spent on manpower. On an average of $20,000 per man year, this would mean 150,000 man years of new jobs in the defence aerospace industry. This would translate into 5,000 jobs in the3rd year and stabilise at 20,000 jobs in the ninth year. Also, all support services like maintenance, training and logistics have to be provided by Indian industries with the technology and knowhow of Dassault, Thales and Safran for the next 40 years. This could create an additional 4,000 jobs. The weapons system contract for the remaining 108 aircraft and its obligations could create additional 6,000 jobs. At the time of fulfilment my conservative assessment would be 30,000 trained, world class manpower would be deployed in Aerospace and Defence Industry. To put it in the perspective it is twice as many people we have now only on quantity," Ravinarayanan detailed.
Nidhi Goyal, Director, Deloitte in India further observed that the Indian companies are already working on setting up their facilities for manufacturing parts of the planes, such as aero structures, aero components, electronics, etc for providing support to the overseas suppliers and to Hindustan Aeronautics limited. They have also started the process of obtaining industrial licence and certifications from the overseas suppliers — Cemilac, DGQA.
While the benefits will be immense to this sector, it will further have a cascading effect on other industries as well. "Many of the technologies which will be transferred can be easily adapted to commercial Aerospace. Some of them would be useful in next generation Automobiles. Also avionics, communication & electronic warfare technologies would be useful in Homeland Security products," Ravinarayanan added.
MMRCA deal a shot in the arm for industry | idrw.org
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The committee must have been snoozing through EFs bid.
pmaitra
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Good statement. When you have too much explaining to do, it's probably not worth explaining.The committee must have been snoozing through EFs bid.
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Rafale orders exceed Eurofighter... 
pankaj nema
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@ ARMAND
I read in some other forum that an internal dispute is BREWING between Germany and UK about the future
of Eurofighter program and ALL is not well
Secondly Germany is lacking interest and seriousness in the Eurofighter equipped with CAPTOR AESA
If you get any news please tell
IF this is true then Anglo German Rivalry will kill EF typhoon
I read in some other forum that an internal dispute is BREWING between Germany and UK about the future
of Eurofighter program and ALL is not well
Secondly Germany is lacking interest and seriousness in the Eurofighter equipped with CAPTOR AESA
If you get any news please tell
IF this is true then Anglo German Rivalry will kill EF typhoon
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If EF doesn't secure the deal in Oman, it is finished by 2017.
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One week and 100 pages complete..
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