Know Your 'Rafale'

[H.A.]

I think this would be the longest discussion on DFI.....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think this would be the longest discussion on DFI.....

And this will continue until the first rafale Operational In India..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[weg]

Still, better than the British.


How about Poland, the cry baby of Europe? First they get all the benefits from USSR and then when USSR faced economic recession and collapsed, Poland was quick to switch sides from the Communist Camp to the Capitalist Camp.
Edited

Ok, I'll give you a pass as you may not know much about Poland history. Briefly,in the 18th Poland was one of the biggest countries in Europe until the surrounding Empires (Austria, Germany, Russia) chopped it up and wiped Poland from the map until 1918. Poland reformed in 1918 as an independent country.

In 1920 the Russians invaded with the intention of converting the whole of Europe to communism via force - the only army with man power to stop them were the Poles. In 1921 they roundly beat the Russians (led by Stalin and Trotsky).

In 1939 the Germans and Russians invaded again, Russia occupied half of Poland and deported the entire Polish population to Siberia where 50% died in two years. The entire surrendered officer corp of the Polish army were executed (22000 men). Stalin got his revenge, Poland was wiped off the map again.

In 1945 the Russians seized a third of Poland and deported any remaining poles to the 'recovered' German territories in the east (deporting 12million Germans).

The Russians installed a communist government and partisans continued to fight against the Russian occupation until the mid 1960's, thousands were killed in communist military actions.

On 17th September, 1991 (the 52nd anniversary on the Russian invasion) the Russians were expelled from Poland.

Far from getting 'benefits' from the Soviet occupation, Poland was impoverished. Its GDP was $61billion in 1991, its now over $500billion and growing fast. Poland is in the EU and NATO for one thing - to prevent a re-invasion and occupation and its already said it would be happy for American troops and nuclear missiles to be stationed here to prevent it.

You are just a EF fanboy, but
..

Pls accept that the French offered the better package and not only the lower price, even if it is a personal disaster.

I have no personnel financial interest in the aircraft industry of any sort. Just a fanboy

 

[p2prada]

The gap between the F-22 and an IAF configuration EF Typhoon is not as massive as it is believed:

Supercruise higher in F-22 (EJ200 growth potential 15% - 20% and Thrust Vectoring option can reduce the gap)

I would beg to differ. neither Rafale nor EF are supercruise capable. Sure their cruise speeds are over mach 1. But that is not militarily applicable supercruise. The F-22 was built from the bottom to supercruise. The engine nozzles are proof of that.

Signatures: VLO vs reduced signature

This is really the only difference between a 4.5th gen aircraft and 5th gen aircraft. Massive upgrades can grant existing aircraft supercruise capability, but there is a limit to how much can be stealth optimized.

The F-22 is the top air superiority fighter currently in operation, but with reduced mission availability and very high cost of operation (and to procure). The aircraft has limited A-G capability and little growth foreseen in this mission area.

EF Typhoon in IAF config. improves significantly its air superiority performance thanks to the new radar and Meteor missiles. Optional growth in engine thrust and TVC can further reduce the gap. Its superior mission availability means its productivity is superior to F-22. Typhoon in IAF config. is a full multirole fighter and with excellent growth in this mission area. A more cost-effective solution.

We really aren't comparing the F-22 to EF. Just the differences between a 5th gen and 4.5th gen.

The F-35 with today's config should be at least 200% more effective than the Viper, Eagle, Typhoon, Flanker or Rafale.

 

[Zebra]

France is a founding memeber of the EU, what sanctions did the EU impose?



So France is hardly much different.



Bullshit. When it comes to India, the US went alone with sanctions last time. The EU countries, France included, made it quite clear they wouldn't impose sanctions on India.

The French are whores who will sell weapons to both sides of a conflict.

There are two (bold part) lines in the said article.
anyway , that time got change now , hope everything become normal now .

 

[shashi]

Is it possible that a side deal to buy UAE Mirages at low prices from france was struck ??just wondering :shocked:

 

[p2prada]

Low observable means LPI radar and RCS under .5m^2, VLO is LPI and under 0.01^m2. PAK FA is LO same as a clean Rafale. F-22 is VLO. Rafale RCS is 10 times less the M2000 according to Dassault engineers, or .3m^2. When Rafale puts on obtrusive stores it ceases to be LO. Only CFT and LO Scalp penetration config keeps it LO.

Then the Su-47 is LO. Supposedly between 0.1 and 0.3m2. At least -5 dBsm. PAKFA has a different benchmark. Initial observations made by independent observers placed the PAKFA in the F-35 category, ie around -13 to -17dBsm compared to F-35's -20dBsm. Russian observers say PAKFA's benchmarks are higher than that and perhaps between the F-22 and F-35. But comparing the F-35 and PAKFA is moot because both are in development.

Rafale is as LO as a red London bus flying in the air. It is in the same benchmark as a Flanker or Eagle and their currently developing models like the Su-35 and Silent Eagle.

I remember that an interview with our M2000 pilot said France won pretty much everything. How despite MKIs powerful radar even M2000 was able to defeat it by coming in at the angle to stay out of its limited cone coverage. I also remember BVR was in full play and MKIs were using simulated R-77s, not training signals.

BVR wasn't in full play. It is impossible because Bars is still kept secret and perhaps will remain so even in the next Red Flag in 2013. The Irbis is an extension of the Bars and the Russians have no plans of revealing it. The same with the Bars based AESA that IAF is going to get pretty soon.

As for the exercise, you know how it was. A Rafale/Mirage team against a MKI/Mirage team. In a dog fight, anybody can win. Flankers have been simulating R-77s since 2004 when the first Su-30K and F-15 exercise took place. There was nothing special done in France in 2010. There is no doubt a 1996 era configured MKI is inferior in technology to a 2006 era configured Rafale.

Yeah, but F-22 production has ended and no country is getting it. It is a hanger queen that never sees combat and a total waste of money. F-35 is the fighter of proliferation and Rafale can fly circles around it. The export version has compromised stealth and little better than a clean Rafale if you take the canards and probe off. I will stick with my Rafales and NEURON ucavs.

The F-22 numbers are quite significant. It is just a few squadrons short of their F-15C squadrons. 254 -187 aircraft short. Not a big deal IMO. So, their air superiority is quite well taken care of. It is a totally different story that they don't want to export it as of today. Sad for them the FB-22 was cancelled. Else another 100-150 of those would have replaced their strike eagles. That was the plan anyway before Gates got hold of the project.

A loaded F-35 is no better than a clean F-16, it is good enough for the subsonic regime. The Rafale may fly circles around it, but then again in a dog fight anybody can win. Even Super Hornets have beaten the F-22.

200 Rafale in India, 120 in Brasil, 60 UAE, 60 Qatar/Kuwait, 24 Malaysia ... makes for a nice portfolio.

I think Malaysia may end up with a Brahmos capable squadron of MKMs. It is the cheapest option. 2 squadrons of Flankers makes more sense than a squadron each of Rafale and MKM. They have a requirement to replace 40 odd aircraft IMO.

Malaysia plans to buy 18 Russian fighter jets | Defense | RIA Novosti

 

[panduranghari]

In that case the game is still on.

Can someone point out a link explaining what sanction the UK is supposed to have imposed on India, I can't find anything about military or economic sanctions.

This for instance says it was only the US who imposed sanctions.
The national Balance sheet after Pokharan - By S.Gurumurthy

The bad blood due to rhetoric by the MPs in Britain has definitely lost EF chances if there were any. India now will not bow before the EF anymore. If they would have gone about with a bit more dignity, may be, possibly. No chance now.

 

[panduranghari]

I saw that. But that's NPT items isn't it? You are not supposed to supply nuclear bomb making materials to non signatories of the NPT, like India. the UK isn't in a habit of breaking international agreements or laws.

More to the point, has Britain ever applied military or economic sanctions?

But Britain has always given underhand support to Pakistand vis-a-vis India.

 

[asianobserve]

Both have no space or potential space for internal weapons carriage.... In the case of Rafale, it cannot be used for first day air combat to neutralise enemy air defenses. The IAF must push the Russians to speed up the PAKFA development...

 

[Cola]

Congratulations to India on choosing the best combat plane in the world.

A dogfight over Delhi | idrw.org

From the link:

The German-led bid was excessively technical and lacked glossy display of what the Typhoon could do in conflicts, according to one critic. While Dassault's bid was captured in 20 pages, Eurofighter's ran to 150.

How can a bid be over technical and lacking glossy display??
I'd really appreciate if someone gave me a hand here.

 

[p2prada]

The PAKFA development is very fast as it is. They are rolling out prototypes every year and the aircraft are flying way more than our vaunted LCA.

The VVS will receive their first PAKFA in 2013, limited production models in 2014, IOC in 2015 and FOC in 2016-17 while IAF receives first squadron in 2017, perhaps HAL manufactured jets in 2018. Pretty good in all respects. This is a frigging defence program.

 

[p2prada]

Congratulations to India on choosing the best combat plane in the world.

How can a bid be over technical and lacking glossy display??
I'd really appreciate if someone gave me a hand here.

If you want to impress pencil pushers then you are going to have to get all glossy in your material. The people who identified the lowest bid are all mostly accountants, they are not technically qualified to understand the principle behind each equipment. So you are going to have to tell them in a written format what each of the equipment can do.

Rafale looks pretty, EF, maybe. But it makes a huge difference if you stick in a colour photo spread of the EF instead of a black and white thumbnail of a Rafale.

 

[weg]

But Britain has always given underhand support to Pakistand vis-a-vis India.

Huh? look at the list of Pakistani military equipment on wiki. Nothing is British, its all American and French. The only 'help' they give is to share information about terrorism and it now agreed that Pakistan is supporting the Taliban against the UK/US in Afghanistan.

Last time our Prime Minister mentioned Pakistan it was to call them an exporter of terrorism. Give them 'underhand support' against an democracy when they run a terror network??:shocked:

 

[Cola]

If you want to impress pencil pushers then you are going to have to get all glossy in your material. The people who identified the lowest bid are all mostly accountants, they are not technically qualified to understand the principle behind each equipment. So you are going to have to tell them in a written format what each of the equipment can do.

Rafale looks pretty, EF, maybe. But it makes a huge difference if you stick in a colour photo spread of the EF instead of a black and white thumbnail of a Rafale.

Ok, but you lost me here.
Who chose the plane, then?
Accountants?

 

[p2prada]

Ok, but you lost me here.
Who chose the plane, then?
Accountants?

Yeah. The people from the Ministry of Defence and Finance who were supposed to determine the lowest bid. The IAF only shortlisted the two fighters in the technical round. In the first phase the costs of all the fighters were unknown. Even today we do not know the actual costs of Mig-35, Gripen, F-16 and SH. IAF simply chose the two best fighters and handed over the list to the govt who then started the bidding process on Nov 4, 2011.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

What is the green block below the duct? What does that supposed to do?

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