Know Your 'Rafale'

[Cola]

Yeah. The people from the Ministry of Defence and Finance who were supposed to determine the lowest bid. The IAF only shortlisted the two fighters in the technical round. In the first phase the costs of all the fighters were unknown. Even today we do not know the actual costs of Mig-35, Gripen, F-16 and SH. IAF simply chose the two best fighters and handed over the list to the govt who then started the bidding process on Nov 4, 2011.

Ok, thx.
However, I assume some of the ppl from MoD, you mentioned, have real military experience which is necessary to evaluate ToT and offsets (things coming attached to plane, in the deal) and gains they provide, right?

 

[mayfair]

Yeah. The people from the Ministry of Defence and Finance who were supposed to determine the lowest bid. The IAF only shortlisted the two fighters in the technical round. In the first phase the costs of all the fighters were unknown. Even today we do not know the actual costs of Mig-35, Gripen, F-16 and SH. IAF simply chose the two best fighters and handed over the list to the govt who then started the bidding process on Nov 4, 2011.

p2p, are you insinuating that if EF had presented a slim glossy brochure the MoD/MoF dinosaurs would have stamped their file instead of Rafale?

I thought you were just taking a piss!!

 

[anoop_mig25]

Ok, thx.
However, I assume some of the ppl from MoD, you mentioned, have real military experience which is necessary to evaluate ToT and offsets (things coming attached to plane, in the deal) and gains they provide, right?

Nanh none of those working in MoD have defence background all of them are IAS

 

[p2prada]

p2p, are you insinuating that if EF had presented a slim glossy brochure the MoD/MoF dinosaurs would have stamped their file instead of Rafale?

I thought you were just taking a piss!!

The first time I did. The second time our man wanted a detailed explanation. So I gave it to him.

Ok, thx.
However, I assume some of the ppl from MoD, you mentioned, have real military experience which is necessary to evaluate ToT and offsets (things coming attached to plane, in the deal) and gains they provide, right?

Come on man. Please get the hint already.

Anyway, to answer you question, MoD and MoF are primarily comprised of civilian guys with little or no defence experience. They are only concerned with the price and that's their job.

In the refueler tender that was recently canceled, MoF was pissed that the IL-76 choice was cheaper even though the Airbus choice was more advanced. IAF tried pushing the Airbus plane and got screwed. Bureaucrats are not concerned with technical specs, only price.

You can have them choose between the Ferrari Enzo and Tata Nano, they will choose the Nano.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Some Cons of Dassult!! It has some serious deficiencies.! :shocked:


Rafael has no super cruise considering EF-2000 has super cruise.

Raff also does not reach Mach-2+ unlike EF and even Mig-35.

Wing loading is also less than EF or Mig.

Dry Thrust 50kN is less by 10kN to EFs 60kN.

Service sealing is 54,000Ft compared to 65,000ft of EF!! 11,000ft less..Holy cow!! :shocked:

What did Sarkozy do to get this deal?????????????

 

[p2prada]

What is the green block below the duct? What does that supposed to do?

Antennas IMO. Spectra or something else.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What is the green block below the duct? What does that supposed to do?

Rafale Spectra ECM suit`s Sensors..

 

[Armand2REP]

Both have no space or potential space for internal weapons carriage.... In the case of Rafale, it cannot be used for first day air combat to neutralise enemy air defenses. The IAF must push the Russians to speed up the PAKFA development...

Getting an enclosed weapons pod takes care of that problem. Rafale can and is used for SEAD. SPECTRA ids and locates the radar, then launch AASM = dead air defence. Eurofighter cant do it but not my problem.

 

[vanadium]

Rafale does not drop out the sky going super sonic unless we want it to. This issue still has not been resolved by BAe. Every Rafale crash has been pilot error. Every Typhoon crash has been mechanical failure. Three crashes due to landing system failures, one crash to total engine failure and the one dropping suddenly into the ground killing a pilot because the ejection seat failed. The systems of Rafale work beautifully and reliably. Typhoon has major issues.

India doesn't revisit something unless they cancel it first.

Rafale has lost more planes in less total flight hours. At least two fatal accidents involve crew disorientation (in general too many fighters are lost due to this factor!). In Typhoon for such an emergency there is a "panic button" which immediately brings the a/c to a level condition and then with a gentle climb rate until the pilot is able to recover the controls manually. It is very sad to see people blame the crew for such losses!

Typhoon had a loss during the development phase (double flameout) due to an organizational mistake allowing the test aircraft entering a part of the envelope where the engines standards fitted at the time were not cleared. One operational a/c had a heavy landing in the US due to undercarriage snag I guess and another was lost during a takeoff in Spain (I have not seen and read the causes of this accident). I believe Rafale uses the same Martin Baker seat as Typhoon, but I am not 100% sure.

It is a long and arduous way mate...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian F3 rafale may get ARM, KH-31P is not going to be on Rafale..

Under MBDA :
ALARM (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[vanadium]

UK is lapdog of US foreign policy, if you are worried about the US doing it then you have to be worried about the UK.

There is this myth of France independence from the US which--when commercially useful--is pushed to such limits as to making appear France policy almost opposed to the USA. But this is a myth which is created with the only purpose of serving the mercantile interests of France. The reality is bien different!

In reality France has been close and aligned with the USA since the birth of that Nation as an independent state. France policy and true interests were and are fundamentally absolutely aligned with those of the USA. In the First World War. In WWII (where the French collapsed in a month BTW!!!). After WWII as a founding member of NATO, the military alliance created by the US to roll back the Soviet Union. As a founding member of the EU and many multilateral institutions created by the US to control the world economy and finance (World Bank, Intl Monetary Fund, etc.). In the fight for the control of Indochina from the late 1940s to the mid-1970s. And on and on up to the most recent events, be it Libya (where Sarkozy was wheeling and dealing with Ghaddafy up to a fortnight before bombing him...maybe for not buying Rafale!) or Afghanistan.

The difference with the UK is that the French relationship with the US is more opportunistic and takes advantage of operating "independently" at the fringes, where really it does not hurt much the "solid fundamentals". While at the same time allows them to play on the world stage the charade of an "independent actor" and to pursue mercantile deals with everybody willing to pay.

 

[vanadium]

The committee must have been snoozing through EFs bid.

Classical German thoroughness to avoid misunderstandings and surprises later on. What is written down will be complied with. Absolutely. A certainty.

French jazzy marketing presentation. Probably a lot of fuzzy areas and space for nasty surprises later, as the negotiation starts dealing with the real stuff in big detail. That is where Dassault has fallen apart in the recent past.

 

[Armand2REP]

Typhoon had a loss during the development phase (double flameout) due to an organizational mistake allowing the test aircraft entering a part of the envelope where the engines standards fitted at the time were not cleared. One operational a/c had a heavy landing in the US due to undercarriage snag I guess and another was lost during a takeoff in Spain (I have not seen and read the causes of this accident). I believe Rafale uses the same Martin Baker seat as Typhoon, but I am not 100% sure.

It is a long and arduous way mate...

You are missing a couple incidents in Austria. There was another failure to deploy landing gear and a failed arrestor damaging the aircraft. Blacking out isn't a fault of the aircraft... so no problems with Rafale, plenty for Eurofighter.

 

[p2prada]

Rafael has no super cruise considering EF-2000 has super cruise.

Neither have supercruise capability. Other than that Rafale can do the same as EF. Both go above Mach 1 with limited store without afterburner. Not a big deal.

Raff also does not reach Mach-2+ unlike EF and even Mig-35.

Unimportant.

Wing loading is also less than EF or Mig.

The lesser it is the better it flies at higher altitudes. But Rafale is meant for low altitude flight because of wing and inlet designs. EF is actually more or less the same as Rafales. Not a big deal.

Dry Thrust 50kN is less by 10kN to EFs 60kN.

Rafale is lighter by a ton or two.

Service sealing is 54,000Ft compared to 65,000ft of EF!! 11,000ft less..Holy cow!![/B] :shocked:

The pilots have physical limitations at such high altitudes. If required the MKI can go upto 75000 feet. Pugachev took the MKI to that height himself.

What did Sarkozy do to get this deal?????????????

Nothing really. The deal was independent of political interference. Dassault won only because their bid was cheaper.

 

[p2prada]

In WWII (where the French collapsed in a month BTW!!!).

2 weeks actually.

 

[vanadium]

I would beg to differ. neither Rafale nor EF are supercruise capable. Sure their cruise speeds are over mach 1. But that is not militarily applicable supercruise. The F-22 was built from the bottom to supercruise. The engine nozzles are proof of that.



This is really the only difference between a 4.5th gen aircraft and 5th gen aircraft. Massive upgrades can grant existing aircraft supercruise capability, but there is a limit to how much can be stealth optimized.



We really aren't comparing the F-22 to EF. Just the differences between a 5th gen and 4.5th gen.

The F-35 with today's config should be at least 200% more effective than the Viper, Eagle, Typhoon, Flanker or Rafale.

Fully aligned with you: as is today supercruise in EF not tactically relevant. With thrust growth and TVC it moves into military usefulness. Supercruise was not a design objective in EF but just a pleasant outcome.

Supercruise is truly important for a stealthy mode of operations as it reduces the IR signature, but less so for a more conventional fighter. The lack of supercruise in JSF (and really any meaningful supersonic performance) is therefore a severe handicap for its stealthy operation.

I was comparing the top non VLO with the top VLO fighter to show that a highly performing aerodynamic design associated with the most advanced BVR missiles and an outstandingly specified AESA radar can reduce the gap quite dramatically. A very cost-effectively. It is that last 10% of extreme performance that will cost you a fortune. I would say that it is exactly what eventually broke the back of the F-22 programme.

Actually Lockheed propaganda states that the F-35A is six times more capable in A-A than the a/c you mention. Except for the Typhoon...probably only because the RAF is a founding member of the JSF project!
Now you can demonstrate whichever outcome you wish if you are resourceful and let the opposition behave in accordance to your own design spec. So given the fact that the JSF LO peaks in the frontal cone please feed me the adversary only in that sector, and one by one please. No nasty surprises of people attacking me in the area of vulnerability please. No clever formation tactics and no AWACS support either. In that case you may achieve your 200%.
In reality once the JSF is picked out (and there are many technical ways and formation tactics to do it) it becomes a sitting duck. To operate safely the JSF needs the condition of air superiority achieved (F-22 does that in USAF and Typhoon in RAF and Italian AF). That is the doctrine and foundation CONOPS of the project.

 

[vanadium]

Getting an enclosed weapons pod takes care of that problem. Rafale can and is used for SEAD. SPECTRA ids and locates the radar, then launch AASM = dead air defence. Eurofighter cant do it but not my problem.

Everybody has been looking at those enclosed LO weapon pods and probably come to the conclusion that on a non stealthy platform they make little sense. The F-15SE conformal carriage does not make much sense either on a platform that the father of stealth (Ben Rich) had termed as a "Cape Cod cottage with the attached carport"...which I guess is worse than your own "double decker London bus"!

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafael has no super cruise considering EF-2000 has super cruise.

As I recall, we already had this discussion with Rafale rating at 1.4M with A2A loadout and 1.1M for Eurofighter.

Raff also does not reach Mach-2+ unlike EF and even Mig-35.

Rafale reached Mach 2 in testing, set it at 1.8 so as not to overheat the SPECTRA AESA arrays on the surface of the aircraft. The friction of Mach 2 speeds can damage them.

Wing loading is also less than EF or Mig.

Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

Dry Thrust 50kN is less by 10kN to EFs 60kN.

Lighter aircraft requires less thrust. It has the same T/W.

Service sealing is 54,000Ft compared to 65,000ft of EF!! 11,000ft less..Holy cow!!

Higher wing loading means higher altitude, it also means less payload and maneuverability.

What did Sarkozy do to get this deal?????????????

He must have used his diamond dick on Sonia according to Swammy.

 

[vanadium]

2 weeks actually.

I am always generous towards my French neighbours...

 

[vanadium]

You are missing a couple incidents in Austria. There was another failure to deploy landing gear and a failed arrestor damaging the aircraft. Blacking out isn't a fault of the aircraft... so no problems with Rafale, plenty for Eurofighter.

Look I do not follow incidents and accidents. Unfortunately they happen, but I would not speculate on them and draw silly conclusions.
For an airman any accident is a sad event, whether it is Typhoon or a MiG-21 or a Rafale!