Know Your 'Rafale'

vanadium

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It takes a swipe at Eurofighter here...

Among the three hundreds of RAFALE to be delivered to the French armed forces, 180 aircraft have already been firmly ordered as of today, and their production is secured up to the year 2025, not to mention the export contracts to come.

Being fully sustainable, the RAFALE program does not need to be "rescued" with funding from another country. It offers a sound and no-risk frame for the long term and large scale MMRCA program.
"...not to mention export contracts to come". To come means not yet in the bag. There is a hint of prudence in that passage, as the road is still long and quite arduous.

The MMRCA procurement is not the typical run of the mill acquisition of an off the shelf product with its logistics package and a bit of offsets thrown in. This is a highly complex deal whose ToT / offset element will likely produce more than the occasional headache (this might be an understatement...) to both sides of the negotiating table. It is also an acquisition that goes well beyond what was originally envisioned and might raise more than a couple of question at the Ministry of Finance. Dassault has screwed up much easier contract negotiations, but that of course is not an immutable Law of Nature!

I do not see the swipe at Eurofighter so you might help us here...
 

vanadium

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Bearings, pin fasteners, electrical connectors, lubricants and composite adhesive. None of Rafale's critical technologies are made in the US. The entire body of Rafale is going to be sourced in India and anything that isn't made of it in France, will be bought from our prime partner for cheaper than US makes.
I thought so... but that´s peanuts!
 

Armand2REP

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I thought so... but that´s peanuts!
My source says it is roughly €3 million per frame sourced from the US, 120 Rafale are yet to be procured in France so €360 million in offsets just from cutting out the Americans. It will help India's supply chain be self sufficient for future aviation. There are still plenty more offsets to come.
 

utubekhiladi

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My source says it is roughly €3 million per frame sourced from the US, 120 Rafale are yet to be procured in France so €360 million in offsets just from cutting out the Americans. It will help India's supply chain be self sufficient for future aviation. There are still plenty more offsets to come.
you think you can just walk-away with-out throwing all of us a party :D
 

Armand2REP

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I learned something new about SPECTRA,

The angular localisation performance of the SPECTRA sensors makes it possible to accurately locate ground threats in order to avoid them, or to target them for destruction with precision guided munitions.

I thought SPECTRA just gave an approximate position and needed to be spotted by Damocles/Aeros to get coordinates, but it is accurate enough to target with AASM by itself. I forget there are enough receivers in the system to triangulate accurately.
 

SPIEZ

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Bearings, pin fasteners, electrical connectors, lubricants and composite adhesive. None of Rafale's critical technologies are made in the US. The entire body of Rafale is going to be sourced in India and anything that isn't made of it in France, will be bought from our prime partner for cheaper than US makes.
Are microprocessors made in china ? Do the Rafale use ARMs ...?
 

panduranghari

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This lays out the case for Rafale = independence

Strategy & Partnership
France is nowadays the only country, in the field of defence & aeronautics, apart from the USA, to own and master in full independence the entire spectrum of the necessary critical technologies, requested for the design, development, production and upgrade of a combat aircraft ( along with the comprehensive set of its associated equipment and armament ).

This is the result of a very strong, wise and continuous political will, not to rely on any other country for these crucial technologies, which are the key driver for the national sovereignty of a country.

India, today, with its constantly increasing role on the international scene and its blooming economy, does indeed share the same ambition as the one already developed by France for several decades.

This is the reason why a very reliable and trustworthy partnership in such a strategic area between India and France makes so much sense.
I have studied the Euro project in depth. The input from CDG and others is incredible. When I keep hearing Euro is going to fail etc. I have got to laugh. The input into birth of Euro is based on solid platform.

I think I can understand why you feel France will be a trustworthy partner for India.
 

vanadium

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My source says it is roughly €3 million per frame sourced from the US, 120 Rafale are yet to be procured in France so €360 million in offsets just from cutting out the Americans. It will help India's supply chain be self sufficient for future aviation. There are still plenty more offsets to come.
Fact is most airframers, including Dassault, procure those specialist connectors, bolts and tapes in the States because it does not make economical sense to design, QUALIFY to MIL Standards, and produce in Europe those highly specialized items. Only the US have the demand and the economies of scale.

Of course everything can be done, but I guess it will cost a small fortune and for a relatively small run.
 

Armand2REP

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Are microprocessors made in china ? Do the Rafale use ARMs ...?
You do know France has it's own semi-conductor industry? Ever heard of ST Microelectronics, 5th largest mmic in the world. Rafale don't need ARMs when SPECTRA can detect and classify the radar for an AASM attack. With ELISA we can map the enemy air network before we send the first plane.
 

SPIEZ

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You do know France has it's own semi-conductor industry? Ever heard of ST Microelectronics, 5th largest mmic in the world. Rafale don't need ARMs when SPECTRA can detect and classify the radar for an AASM attack.
I very well know about those, don't bite the bullet yet! I was just asking if France relies on American or British cores(microprocessors) ? They may have a fabrication industry et al. But I m yet to meet a core outside the US UK realm. SPECTRA is a final product, it would require some core for it's functioning right ..?
 

SpArK

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I learned something new about SPECTRA,

The angular localisation performance of the SPECTRA sensors makes it possible to accurately locate ground threats in order to avoid them, or to target them for destruction with precision guided munitions.

I thought SPECTRA just gave an approximate position and needed to be spotted by Damocles/Aeros to get coordinates, but it is accurate enough to target with AASM by itself. I forget there are enough receivers in the system to triangulate accurately.


Pictured through the Damocles targeting pod of a French Air Force Rafale, two Libyan Mi-35 "Hind" attack helicopters, revving up their rotors at Misrata air base, are seen seconds before their destruction by a well placed 250 kg AASM. © EMACOM​
 

Armand2REP

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Here are some images from the Rafale/F-22 dual at Al Dhafra.

 

SpArK

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AASM Hammer precision-guided 250 kg rocket-bombs are seen at Solenzara air base, in Corsica, before being rigged to Rafale fighters by French Air Force ordnance specialists. The Sagem-designed PGM is nowadays the standard stand-off ammunition of the Rafale. This hi-tech GPS/INS guided weapon has demonstrated a surprising versatility and excellent strike potential against Libyan vehicles, tanks and aircraft. Each Rafale carry four AASMs for a normal sortie, but six could be used by a single Rafale if necessary. This weapon is launched 50 to 15 km away from a designated target. © EMACOM​
 

Neil

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Why India chose Rafale

When Pratibha Patil travelled to Europe last October, she and others in her entourage had a pleasant surprise in the sky. At one point along the air space that the President's flight was using, half a squadron of Eurofighters appeared on both sides of her Air India plane.

In the graceful style of these sleek war machines, they escorted the presidential aircraft to its safe landing at Patil's next destination. Even so, those manning the Eurofighters could not resist showing off.

When the Eurofighters displayed the prowess of this advanced new-generation, multi-role combat aircraft to the President, members of Parliament and senior officials accompanying her, New Delhi's quest for 126 planes of its kind could not have been far from the minds of their pilots.

The competition for the biggest military aviation deal in history, which began 11 years ago when the defence ministry initiated its "request for information" or RFI, had just entered its final and decisive phase.

But the impromptu decision to send the Eurofighters across European skies to impress the President was typical of what cost some rivals of Dassault Aviation — last week's winners — the lucrative Indian Air Force contract.

It was somewhat reminiscent of Henry Kissinger's disastrous invitation to defence minister Jagjivan Ram to visit Washington in 1971 as the sub-continent was heading into war, as recounted by Rukmini Menon, who was then joint secretary for the US in South Block.

"Why should I visit Washington?" Ram asked a non-plussed Kissinger and proceeded to tell him how American arms supplies had emboldened Pakistan to ruthlessly suppress East Pakistanis.

Partly, it was a similar approach that resulted in Boeing's F-18E and Lockheed Martin's F-16E being turfed out of the competition for the IAF deal earlier in the race. Not solely with the multi-role combat aircraft deal in mind, the Obama administration had made too much noise bereft of substance about the first state visit of his administration and Barack Obama's first state dinner in honour of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

There was a time when India's rulers could solely be influenced by gimmicks. But theatrics and atmospherics can no longer substitute hard policy options. This is one lesson New Delhi has hopefully absorbed firsthand from intense, albeit under the radar interaction with Israelis — especially in defence matters — in the last 20 years.

Then there was A.K. Antony, whom the losers in the bid for the IAF deal had not reckoned with. Antony, by nature, is averse to being the public face of decision-making. This has been the case throughout his tenure as defence minister, especially during scandals such as the Adarsh housing scam that rocked the army. Each time it was clear that the defence minister had made up his mind, but the decisions were put out as if they were taken elsewhere, along the proper channel.

Such an approach came through clearly in his most detailed statement on January 31 on the controversy about the army chief's age. Ending months of virtual silence in the matter, Antony blamed the army for sitting on the problem for 36 years and then dealing with it in its own wisdom. So much so the army chief Gen. V.K. Singh had to agree with the minister.

Antony has maintained in public throughout that the multi-role combat aircraft acquisition process is a technical matter that would be decided by professionals in uniform. But such a public position overlooks the reality that Antony's core support team in his ministry is much more ideological than in any other wing of the present government. Like civil servants, men in uniform are not immune from ministerial winds blowing in a particular direction.

Ideological considerations have prevented Antony from visiting Israel and from signing at least three defence agreements with the Americans which his core team views as compromising India's strategic autonomy.

If the Russian plane on offer, MiG-35, had not clearly failed the tests, it was conceivable that it would very much have been in the reckoning. With the Russians out of the way, it did weigh with the political leadership in the defence ministry that France favours a multi-polar world and that India is a beneficiary of such an approach.

France won the bid for the entire order because it supplemented the requirements of the global tender with sweeteners that in the real world of strategic engagement, only three countries can offer India: Russia and Israel, in addition to France itself.

The collaborations that France has offered India in recent years in the field of intelligence sharing and upgrade are without parallel. Naturally, this is an area where co-operation cannot be publicised by the very nature of such engagement.

India and France face somewhat similar threats of domestic terrorism, vastly different from the threats faced by the US, Russia or even Israel. The assistance that Paris has offered New Delhi in preparing the country against such threats and the constant upgrading of their assistance went a long way towards creating an environment that favoured the French on the aircraft deal.

It was in direct contrast to Washington's approach: the bulk of India's intelligence community and key bureaucrats at decision-making levels believe that the Americans two-timed New Delhi on David Coleman Headley, their double agent in Chicago who played a major role in the Pakistan-supported terrorist attack on Mumbai in 2008.

In addition, spread across India's entire political spectrum that includes much of the Opposition, is a firm conviction that India would not have come out unscathed from the decision to conduct the 1998 nuclear tests if it were not for the steadfast backing that President Jacques Chirac — and Nicolas Sarkozy after him — offered India in an hour of great need.

It is not widely known that during the Kargil war in 1999, the French approved with lightning speed the adaptation of Indian Air Force Mirages in tandem with equally speedy Israeli supplies of laser-guided bombs which they delivered in Srinagar: without such French and Israeli support, India could have lost Kargil to Pervez Musharraf's perfidy.

No honourable Indian in uniform can forget that in such a situation, the US or Britain would have probably suspended all military supplies to the combatants to prove their bona fides as honest brokers for peace.

Policies may be the result of collective decision-making in governments, but within that framework, individuals do matter. One such individual who has left a mark on Franco-Indian relations is Jean-David Levitte, whose critical role in securing the Rafale deal for his country will never become a matter of public record because of the nature of his job.

Levitte is diplomatic adviser and "Sherpa" to Sarkozy, who made amends for the temperamental mistakes during his President's first visit to India as chief guest during Republic Day celebrations in New Delhi and organised a second trip that turned out to be one of most productive and substantive visits by any head of state to India.

Levitte was senior diplomatic adviser to Chirac too when Brajesh Mishra, the then principal secretary to Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, flew to Paris as his first stop abroad seeking diplomatic support after the Pokhran II nuclear tests. Mishra found such support in Paris before he extracted reluctant support from Moscow.

Soon afterwards, Levitte became French permanent representative to the UN in New York where he led, along with Russia, a split among the five permanent members of the Security Council on the issue of punishing India through sanctions on the nuclear issue. Later he was ambassador in Washington.

Two of the countries which have been after the multi-role combat aircraft deal, the US and Britain, were at that time in the forefront of efforts in the Security Council to choke India into submission and roll back its nuclear programme.

Within the political and civilian leadership of India's defence establishment, there has been no doubt that other things being equal, India should reward a friend in need, in this case, France.



Why India chose Rafale | idrw.org
 

SpArK

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When Pratibha Patil travelled to Europe last October, she and others in her entourage had a pleasant surprise in the sky. At one point along the air space that the President's flight was using, half a squadron of Eurofighters appeared on both sides of her Air India plane.

In the graceful style of these sleek war machines, they escorted the presidential aircraft to its safe landing at Patil's next destination. Even so, those manning the Eurofighters could not resist showing off.


But the impromptu decision to send the Eurofighters across European skies to impress the President was typical of what cost some rivals of Dassault Aviation — last week's winners — the lucrative Indian Air Force contract.

It was somewhat reminiscent of Henry Kissinger's disastrous invitation to defence minister Jagjivan Ram to visit Washington in 1971 as the sub-continent was heading into war, as recounted by Rukmini Menon, who was then joint secretary for the US in South Block.

"



Antony has maintained in public throughout that the multi-role combat aircraft acquisition process is a technical matter that would be decided by professionals in uniform. But such a public position overlooks the reality that Antony's core support team in his ministry is much more ideological than in any other wing of the present government. Like civil servants, men in uniform are not immune from ministerial winds blowing in a particular direction.

Ideological considerations have prevented Antony from visiting Israel and from signing at least three defence agreements with the Americans which his core team views as compromising India's strategic autonomy.

If the Russian plane on offer, MiG-35, had not clearly failed the tests, it was conceivable that it would very much have been in the reckoning. With the Russians out of the way, it did weigh with the political leadership in the defence ministry that France favours a multi-polar world and that India is a beneficiary of such an approach.


I
It was in direct contrast to Washington's approach: the bulk of India's intelligence community and key bureaucrats at decision-making levels believe that the Americans two-timed New Delhi on David Coleman Headley, their double agent in Chicago who played a major role in the Pakistan-supported terrorist attack on Mumbai in 2008.

In addition, spread across India's entire political spectrum that includes much of the Opposition, is a firm conviction that India would not have come out unscathed from the decision to conduct the 1998 nuclear tests if it were not for the steadfast backing that President Jacques Chirac — and Nicolas Sarkozy after him — offered India in an hour of great need.






Two of the countries which have been after the multi-role combat aircraft deal, the US and Britain, were at that time in the forefront of efforts in the Security Council to choke India into submission and roll back its nuclear programme.

Within the political and civilian leadership of India's defence establishment, there has been no doubt that other things being equal, India should reward a friend in need, in this case, France.



Why India chose Rafale | idrw.org


EFT lost because it accompanied Prathiba Patil's plane.
US lost becasue of David Headily.
MiGs were nt considered because it failed in tests.



Cool story by the irdw bro:pft:
 

Param

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Kargil war is history. During the war France was building Agosta sub for Pak. After that we gave France the Scorpene deal, over expensive mirage upgradation deal.

If the mmrca had not gone to France they might have sold stuff to Pak.

The pro India role played by US and even UK to some extent post 2002 is deliberatey not highlighted.

Both those countries will be pissed off, but I don't care now.
 
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Armand2REP

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We did deny Pak a lucrative upgrade contract for the JF-17. I am sure that was taken into consideration.
 

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