Know Your 'Rafale'

[LETHALFORCE]

Further explanation please

How France helped us win Falklands war, by John Nott - Telegraph

How France helped us win Falklands war

FRANCE was Britain's greatest ally during the Falklands war, providing secret information to enable MI6 agents to sabotage Exocet missiles which were desperately sought by Argentina, according to Sir John Nott, who was Defence Secretary during the conflict.
In his memoirs he reveals that while President Reagan was pressurising Lady Thatcher to accept a negotiated settlement France helped Britain to win the conflict.
Although Lady Thatcher clashed with President Mitterrand over the future direction of Europe, he immediately came to her aid after Argentine forces invaded the Falklands in April 1982.
"In so many ways Mitterrand and the French were our greatest allies," Sir John says. As soon as the conflict began, France made available to Britain Super-Etendard and Mirage aircraft - which it had supplied to Argentina - so Harrier pilots could train against them.

 

[bengalraider]

Germany has had earlier problems with weapons sales to India, I've always maintained that France is a preferred seller for the basic fact that they stood by us along with Russia when the rest of the world sanctioned us post-Pokharan 2.

 

[weg]

Dude rafale one but there are going to be contract negotitations thats why this confusion

Its not even officially L1 yet. Unfortunately this competition is far from over, its already been known for months that Rafale was $5million cheaper. Other considerations may still have an influence.

Watch BAE take over from EADs and a better offer based on ToT and production, maybe even a lower price.

 

[ace009]

Do you know of the dollars (tens of billions) of military sales with India under this administration? Do you also know that the manufactures are private entities and Obama , other allow more on the TOT , really not him but congressional approval is fequired, is not responsible on how the aircrafts compare ?

Actually, LM blew it back in 2005 when they offered the F-16 instead of the F-35 to MMRCA. Back then Bush could not persuade Congress to allow the sell of F-35 to India. The F-16 was never going to cut it and LM knew it too. They tried to sweeten the deal with F-35 promises later - but no one believed them in MoD.
The F/A-18 from Boeing on the other hand was a genuine article and I think it has potential for INs NMRCA.

The options for F-16IN and F/A-18 SH were submitted in Bush era and the results were sealed by then. The F-35 was never a serious contender since MoD had made it clear that they would not consider anything without ToT. Obama could not ensure it, just as Bush could not.
So blaming Obama for failure of three fighter losses is not good - if anything, blame Bush. You can blame Obama for half the F-35 loss at best.

 

[nrj]

The GDP of those countries is nearly 3X greater than France and they have a UNSC veto. They were represented by EADS and all the offsets they can offer. They lost to a little company like Dassault who offers one nation source and better ToT. India doesn't want to deal with Euro politics, they want a clean deal.

Only UK has UNSC veto seat.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Would the silly childish clowns who keep saying russia is best friend and now france is a best friend either shut up or go away with their undeveloped thoughts. France is in a competitive trade war with india, after french government tried to block mittal takeing over arcelor steel the french government was forced by GoI to not indulge in protectionism, for them it was an indian take over and now in their minds all this is a come back for that. This is aggressive trade where french president personally steeped in after dassult was disqualified in 2010. Do you even know that shit for brains?


The same france had a minor roll in tweaking the protest against kudankullam nuclear power plant where the christian missionaries are up in arms against the russian power plant.

Please try to understand basics of world politics, there are no friends this not your school, there is only money and common interests.

 

[methos]

What India has been looking for is good performance at low costs. This does not mean that any of the contenders not chosen by the Indian government is worse than other aircrafts (on paper it is pretty clear that the Rafale is not the top performer in all categories and being only operated by France ATM it does not reach the high level of weapon integeration common in US aircraft or the EF 2000). The main point for choosing the Rafale in the end was it's good performance-costs ratio, which is achieved by claiming the lowest price.
Contrary to the reactions of most people here there is ATM no contract (as also mentioned by David Cameron), but Dassault has exclussively the right to negotiate. If India will finally end up with the Rafale still remains unclear. It is more likely than all other possibilities from the current point-of-view. But as mentioned in the German "Der Spiegel" there is no fixed prize. It might be that the costs increase and/or that the negotiations between Dassault and the Indian government fail. Mentioned in German-language sources the Rafale is more repair sensitive than the Eurofighter (which would mean that the Rafale could at lower per-unit-costs could end up at similar overall costs as the EF), but the Swiss decided to buy the JAS Gripen because they considered operating it cheaper than using the EF or the Rafale.
Curiosly Armand 2 REP claims that the EF would be more repair sensitive. How far this is true: I know that in Austria and also in Germany the ratio of operational aircraft and non-operational aircraft is considered to be "typical" and the EF is claimed to be not prone to technical failure. IMO this statement comes from the fact that the Brits had some problems with getting spares after operating some of their EF in Lybia. As they probably used some of the later tranche aircraft it might be that producing the "normal" amount of spare parts and producing parts for new production aircraft has nearly exhausted the capacities of current EF production so that Britian was not able to procure enough spare parts during Operation Ellamy.

 

[rock127]

http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-air-force/31142-british-pm-says-he-urge-india-change.html

 

[arundo]

it is very unlikely, that the French have more political influence than the 4 EF countries. I guess the existing cooperation between both countries and the total life cycle costs were the main reasons. The fact, that Rafale is more advanced and the EF delayed could have influenced the decision as well. We should not forget that the upgrades (aesa radar planned for 2015 and a2g for 2018 at the earliest) are nothing really concrete so far.

 

[SpArK]

France hopes to seal Indian jet fighter deal in 9 months


France is confident that it can sign and seal a firm $12 billion deal to supply India with 126 Rafale fighter jets "within six to nine months", government spokeswoman Valerie Pecresse said on Wednesday.

The Rafale, a modern multi-role jet built by Dassault Aviation, has been selected by India as its preferred next generation interceptor, but details of the immense contract remain to be ironed out.

"It needs to be finalised, but the French offer is the most competitive and that has been recognised by our partners," Pecresse said, after President Nicolas Sarkozy hailed the deal at a cabinet meeting.

India announced on Tuesday it had selected the French firm Dassault over the Eurofighter consortium for "exclusive negotiations" as the preferred bidder in a contract estimated to be worth $12 billion.

If concluded, the contract would mark the first time the jet had found an export partner, despite being in service with the French military since 1998 and having proved itself in several conflicts.


France hopes to seal Indian jet fighter deal in 9 months - India - DNA

 

[trackwhack]

I am still being entertained by the comments on the Daily mail. Its reached 1200 now and is hitting 100 comments per hour. Here are some priceless ones. For the enjoyment and posterity of future DFI members who may one day go through this thread.

** There's any easy and swift reply to the Indians,STOP THEIR 250 MILLION POUND AID PACKAGE NOW. See what they say then.

** Hit them where it hurts and stop all aid!

** The phrase 'biting the hand that feeds you' springs to mind. It's times like these you find out who you're real friends are. Cut 'em off without a penny, I say.

** Now let's do the same by snubbing india and taking all our Call Centres back

** Tell them if they don't buy our fighters then the aid will stop instantly as it will be needed to pay the dole money for our workers put out of work.

and then one comment that stopped my hysterical laughter and brought a little smile. This is for you Messiah and Civ

** So this is 2012, where military companies are pleading with India to buy their fighter planes, to the extent of giving them hundreds of millions in aid (bribes) to help the cause. Compare this with 100 years ago, when the Indians were bowing down to the British Empire. How times have changed.

 

[JayATL]

Mouthing off abuses and personal attacks dont add any street cred man. It only makes you look like a fool. You were the one who quoted 3000 bookings. Where in hell did you get 3000 booking for the F 35 from. Japan has decided to buy 40 planes.

Where is 40 and where is 3000. The US had planned 2400 planes. There is a motion to completely eliminate the F 35 B and C order and halve the F 35 A orders. That was before the plane started acting up and the Air Force started complaining. So good luck trying to get even 200 of these birds flying.

Now please, if you have any self esteem, show me credible news sources that say the F 35 has 3000 bookings.

First we agree that you had no idea about Japan purchasing 40 aircrafts, infact the mental midget that sits in your brain had thoughancestry claimed otherwise. Next you don't know that Australia has also ordered f 35 , which is towards what is going to be a 100 of these birds ordered by them. That Israeli have ordered these aircrafts , that uk has orders, Canada has, Japan has. But let's give you an understanding of the partners in the JSF program to get through you head what the numbers are even at half as you have claimed.

I notice you never back up your BS with any articles. All you have to do is read this page Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II procurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to get any idea of the commit made by every partner and the US. We have to purchase close to 2500 aircrafts ourselves because we are phasing out F18 's . There is no other aircraft for us, if you knew that you would not make the stupendously idiotic claim that F35 program is getting wiped out by the US.

.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Avoid personal attacks. Keep the discussion friendly

 

[rock127]

I am still being entertained by the comments on the Daily mail. Its reached 1200 now and is hitting 100 comments per hour. Here are some priceless ones. For the enjoyment and posterity of future DFI members who may one day go through this thread.

** There's any easy and swift reply to the Indians,STOP THEIR 250 MILLION POUND AID PACKAGE NOW. See what they say then.

** Hit them where it hurts and stop all aid!

** The phrase 'biting the hand that feeds you' springs to mind. It's times like these you find out who you're real friends are. Cut 'em off without a penny, I say.

** Now let's do the same by snubbing india and taking all our Call Centres back

** Tell them if they don't buy our fighters then the aid will stop instantly as it will be needed to pay the dole money for our workers put out of work.

and then one comment that stopped my hysterical laughter and brought a little smile. This is for you Messiah and Civ

** So this is 2012, where military companies are pleading with India to buy their fighter planes, to the extent of giving them hundreds of millions in aid (bribes) to help the cause. Compare this with 100 years ago, when the Indians were bowing down to the British Empire. How times have changed.

How about they pack their bags of all their products... these westies wants all advantages in their side... just because we didn't buy one of their product they are becoming cry babies...... grow up developed countries :

 

[Godless-Kafir]

What India has been looking for is good performance at low costs. This does not mean that any of the contenders not chosen by the Indian government is worse than other aircrafts (on paper it is pretty clear that the Rafale is not the top performer in all categories and being only operated by France ATM it does not reach the high level of weapon integeration common in US aircraft or the EF 2000). The main point for choosing the Rafale in the end was it's good performance-costs ratio, which is achieved by claiming the lowest price.
Contrary to the reactions of most people here there is ATM no contract (as also mentioned by David Cameron), but Dassault has exclussively the right to negotiate. If India will finally end up with the Rafale still remains unclear. It is more likely than all other possibilities from the current point-of-view. But as mentioned in the German "Der Spiegel" there is no fixed prize. It might be that the costs increase and/or that the negotiations between Dassault and the Indian government fail. Mentioned in German-language sources the Rafale is more repair sensitive than the Eurofighter (which would mean that the Rafale could at lower per-unit-costs could end up at similar overall costs as the EF), but the Swiss decided to buy the JAS Gripen because they considered operating it cheaper than using the EF or the Rafale.
Curiosly Armand 2 REP claims that the EF would be more repair sensitive. How far this is true: I know that in Austria and also in Germany the ratio of operational aircraft and non-operational aircraft is considered to be "typical" and the EF is claimed to be not prone to technical failure. IMO this statement comes from the fact that the Brits had some problems with getting spares after operating some of their EF in Lybia. As they probably used some of the later tranche aircraft it might be that producing the "normal" amount of spare parts and producing parts for new production aircraft has nearly exhausted the capacities of current EF production so that Britian was not able to procure enough spare parts during Operation Ellamy.

Have you even been following this issue? The Mig35 was offered for 35million$ and the two costly contenders where the Rafael and EF-200- at 80 to 100million$. If surely cost was any factor then they would have gone in for more Mig-35s which was already present in IAF and could easily integrate all the weapons available in IAFs arsenal.

It has been know all over the world that IAFs tests where the toughest and most demanding. I may agree if you had any other reason but these two reasons are bogus, the cost in particular is totally wrong.

 

[trackwhack]

First we agree that you had no idea about Japan purchasing 40 aircrafts, infact the mental midget that sits in your brain had thought and cliqmed otherwise. Next you don't know that Australia has also ordered f 35 , which is towards what is going to be a 100 of these birds ordered by them. That Israeli have ordered these aircrafts , that uk has orders . But let's give you an understanding of the partners in the JSF program to get through you head what the numbers are even at half as you have claimed.

I notice you never back up your BS with any articles. All you have to do is read this page Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II procurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to get any idea of the commit made by every partner and the US. We have to purchase close to 2500 aircrafts ourselves because we are phasing out F18 's . There is no other aircraft for us, if you knew that you would not make the stupendously idiotic claim that F35 program is getting wiped out by the US.

.

No one has orders, they have expressed interest son. Show me credible sources that say they have placed orders. Even officials in India have said, hmm, interesting plane. That does not translate to orders. Of course these poor countries have unfortunately funded the junk mobile so they may buy a few, but there are no current orders. I am still waiting for you to show me evidence of you 3000 booking claim.

I alrady addressed the 2400 number that is on order by the Department of Defence. Respond to that rather than sounding like a broken radio repeating the same BS over and over again

Also, learn to read, I already stated 3 posts back that Japan has been arm twisted into buying it. For all I know your source of orders from Japan is from what I quoted 3 posts back.

 

[Armand2REP]

It is pretty funny that people still talk about a failure of negotiations. UMP has a gun to Dassault's head. If he screws this up he is going out of business and his empire will be liquidated to the highest bidder. The new L1 bid to Switzerland says he gets the message.

 

[Yusuf]

The Brits are showing their racist side once again. What aid are they talking about? India takes no aid. Why will a country ready to purchase fighters worth $20 billion ask for aid of $250 million. They have lost their brains too it seems.

 

[trackwhack]

The Brits are showing their racist side once again. What aid are they talking about? India takes no aid. Why will a country ready to purchase fighters worth $20 billion ask for aid of $250 million. They have lost their brains too it seems.

The average Pom did not get through high school. What do you expect? This 250 million number was something some retarded politician spouted during the last elections. He conveniently forgot to mention that all of that money goes to NGO's and missionaries. Most brits are under the impression that GOI uses the 250 million in aid to pay for our defence and space program. Which also shows their handle over middle school math.

 

[Mad Indian]

only an imbecile would first see it as an issue, given air fueling capabilities of aircrafts now days and only a whacko off its track would not get that different variants have different ranges and finally only a retard would call the range objectionable while every NATO country has not made it an issue.

in others words you are once again the champion, singular class clown here, having again won your coveted title in 2012 - every year in a row since birth( unheralded reigning champion)

somehow we ( US) can have F35 to fight the chinese if needed in south china sea - but India per you cannot use over its border. Brillant!

Look the USN can use the F35s from their 11 aircraft carriers and USAF can use their bases in japan and taiwan which are very close to China against Chinese, But how can we(indians) do that unless we have some imaginary bases in the south china sea or the carriers ...??? any ideas how it can be done ....??? so why should we buy F35....

And how can we trust a country to provide us with fighters for SFC(nuclear forces) which loaded us with sanctions when we tested a nuclear device and is openly against us testing nuclear weapons... I dont think there is much logic there is it:confused2::confused2:????