Know Your 'Rafale'

[Defcon 1]

US lobbyists on the forum should focus their efforts on getting the F35 offered to India instead of badmouthing Rafale.

India won't buy F16V, F18 or F15EX. Sooner the US understands it, the better.

 

[BON PLAN]

Who said F-35 is offered to UAE? Greece is buying F-35. Purchase of Rafale is not a purchase but corruption of buying nations.

LOL.
There was a package with F35 and drones, for 'only' 35 billions. UAE refused.

Greece buying F35? I just expect you will have to wait less than France from UAE to sell Rafale....

Corruption? Give source please. If not it is another classical french bashing from a very average US citizen.

 

[BON PLAN]

US lobbyists on the forum should focus their efforts on getting the F35 offered to India instead of badmouthing Rafale.

India won't buy F16V, F18 or F15EX. Sooner the US understands it, the better.

F35 is not a nice answer. It is only a piece of US umbrella, and you don't need it as some others.

 

[DumbPilot]

F35 is not a nice answer. It is only a piece of US umbrella, and you don't need it as some others.

It's a very capable jet, and anything other than that is just cope. Whether we as Indians can afford it or actually need it, is debatable

 

[Azaad]

It's a very capable jet, and anything other than that is just cope. Whether we as Indians can afford it or actually need it, is debatable

We can afford it & we need it to take on the J-20 & the rest of PLAAF , but RN the F-35 is mostly still WiP & is expected to achieve FOC by the end of this decade at the earliest. I'm not sure the IAF wants to undergo what they did during the MKI saga . Moreover there's the not so small issue of the S-400 to be considered apart from other Ru equipment we've in our arsenal.

 

[DumbPilot]

We can afford it & we need it to take on the J-20 & the rest of PLAAF , but RN the F-35 is mostly still WiP & is expected to achieve FOC by the end of this decade at the earliest. I'm not sure the IAF wants to undergo what they did during the MKI saga . Moreover there's the not so small issue of the S-400 to be considered apart from other Ru equipment we've in our arsenal.

As per this post, the S-400s might not be as big of an issue:

Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

Can anyone confirm is their a communication link of S-400 back to Russia to give RCS of tacked aircraft? If this is true Rafale, AMCA's and Tejas's RCS would be compromised. Russia would be more than willing to sell this RCS data to PRC for right price. Can S-400 EVEN detect f-35B in our...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[Azaad]

As per this post, the S-400s might not be as big of an issue:

Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

Can anyone confirm is their a communication link of S-400 back to Russia to give RCS of tacked aircraft? If this is true Rafale, AMCA's and Tejas's RCS would be compromised. Russia would be more than willing to sell this RCS data to PRC for right price. Can S-400 EVEN detect f-35B in our...

defenceforumindia.com

Who knows? Even if it's true, it's the prerogative of the US whether they buy such an explanation. RN there seems to be a game of hide & seek on between GoI & the US administration on this issue.

I suspect we're waiting to see how the Su-57 shapes up. It still needs a couple of years before the Item 30 TF on it is certified. Probably we'd know in a couple of years.

As it is the IAF + MoD + GoI are wasting time for reasons they know best, with respect to ordering more Rafales or even proceeding with MRFA. At the same time we're pretending we don't need the F-35 & the US is pretending they don't want to sell it to us.

All this will come back to haunt us when we go to war with China towards the end of the decade . As it is the IAF has a rather chequered history in our wars with both the neighbors. In fact they didn't even participate in 1962 . Hope we don't see a repeat of it this time around too.

 

[BON PLAN]

It's a very capable jet, and anything other than that is just cope. Whether we as Indians can afford it or actually need it, is debatable

No it is not.
Not FOC, can't supercruise despite the bigger engine of the world (on a fighter), a lot of problems remaining.

It is the new F104....

 

[johnj]

It's a very capable jet, and anything other than that is just cope. Whether we as Indians can afford it or actually need it, is debatable

India developing AMCA, means we need it, affordability is a big question, if you consider it need a entire new ecosystem, weapons, secure infa and communications etc, other issue is - freedom of usage, integration of Indian weapons and systems

 

[daya]

Do we really need all this stuff? 3 men in uniform got martyrdom in terrorist attack, all these fancy weapons will rest down still in showcases...

 

[blackjack]

I think I remember someone saying to me here that India blew over 100 million dollars for each Rafael which in that case might be one of the biggest ripoffs in military purchasing history and India is lucky the country doesnt have jews yet.

Based on American and Russian forums and discussions alone any stealth platform with physical design alone and not material offers a 100 fold decrease in RCS along with reduction in infrared detection, if F-35s sell under 100 million dollars and it was not purchased over a nonstealth aircraft for over 100 millions than I an sorry to admit it was a stupid decision. Only difference that makes rafael slightly better is you can fly the Rafael more since flights for it costs less than the flights for F-35s.

It wouldn't even matter if a GaN radar over a GaAS radar bumped up the target detection from 1m2 at 200kms to 250kms because the 100 fold decrease in RCS is far too significantly small exceeding what the GaN radars sees at 200kms being smaller than what the GaAS radar saw it as from 200kms away. Using an old platform with new electronics and new missiles against a stealth aircraft which itself gets new electronics and missiles with a cheaper price tag makes the choice obvious what should be bought. I am going to be standing on the sidelines on what morons will purchase Rafael in this time and age. Atleast the turks had the courtesy to call the hurjet a 4th compared to the French calling the Rafael a 5th gen+.

Overall I am Iinterested in developments of su-75s, F-35s, su-57s and f-22s and how far India and turkey would get with their 5th gen programs. Although I will say I am upset that users brought up politics with Pakistan that caused Rodeo to leave and stay in defense Hub who did not bring up politcs and just discussed turkeys military equipment. I mean I would try to private message him to come back but sadly I can't guarantee some users(not all users) here will make promises to shut up about politics.

 

[Azaad]

I think I remember someone saying to me here that India blew over 100 million dollars for each Rafael which in that case might be one of the biggest ripoffs in military purchasing history and India is lucky the country doesnt have jews yet.

Based on American and Russian forums and discussions alone any stealth platform with physical design alone and not material offers a 100 fold decrease in RCS along with reduction in infrared detection, if F-35s sell under 100 million dollars and it was not purchased over a nonstealth aircraft for over 100 millions than I an sorry to admit it was a stupid decision. Only difference that makes rafael slightly better is you can fly the Rafael more since flights for it costs less than the flights for F-35s.

It wouldn't even matter if a GaN radar over a GaAS radar bumped up the target detection from 1m2 at 200kms to 250kms because the 100 fold decrease in RCS is far too significantly small exceeding what the GaN radars sees at 200kms being smaller than what the GaAS radar saw it as from 200kms away. Using an old platform with new electronics and new missiles against a stealth aircraft which itself gets new electronics and missiles with a cheaper price tag makes the choice obvious what should be bought. I am going to be standing on the sidelines on what morons will purchase Rafael in this time and age. Atleast the turks had the courtesy to call the hurjet a 4th compared to the French calling the Rafael a 5th gen+.

Overall I am Iinterested in developments of su-75s, F-35s, su-57s and f-22s and how far India and turkey would get with their 5th gen programs. Although I will say I am upset that users brought up politics with Pakistan that caused Rodeo to leave and stay in defense Hub who did not bring up politcs and just discussed turkeys military equipment. I mean I would try to private message him to come back but sadly I can't guarantee some users(not all users) here will make promises to shut up about politics.

What's the sale of the F-35 as compared to the Rafales in absolute numbers ? Does quantity have a say in dictating the production costs of an item or do you believe it doesn't ?

Furthermore , what makes you think the IAF didn't opt for the F-35 because it thinks it has an equivalent in the Rafale & not because it doesn't trust the US to ditch it when the chips are down as the US has done multiple times in the past due to which the unstated policy of the Indian armed forces & the GoI is they'd go never go in for a US product in frontline operations / offensive platforms IF they had a DECENT alternative .

Finally the F-35 is still a WiP - Work in Progress with the FOC expected towards the end of the decade & then too that Timeline is speculative . Having had plenty of such experiences of WiP platforms in the past & having been on plenty of such learning curves , maybe the IAF has decided once bitten , twice shy & IF they do decide on going in for the F-35 it'd be in consideration only towards the end of the decade more so since our own 5th Gen AMCA project seems delayed with production of the definitive FOC Mk-2 version set to commence not earlier than 2040 or even later .

 

[Javelin_Sam]

I think I remember someone saying to me here that India blew over 100 million dollars for each Rafael which in that case might be one of the biggest ripoffs in military purchasing history and India is lucky the country doesnt have jews yet.

Based on American and Russian forums and discussions alone any stealth platform with physical design alone and not material offers a 100 fold decrease in RCS along with reduction in infrared detection, if F-35s sell under 100 million dollars and it was not purchased over a nonstealth aircraft for over 100 millions than I an sorry to admit it was a stupid decision. Only difference that makes rafael slightly better is you can fly the Rafael more since flights for it costs less than the flights for F-35s.

It wouldn't even matter if a GaN radar over a GaAS radar bumped up the target detection from 1m2 at 200kms to 250kms because the 100 fold decrease in RCS is far too significantly small exceeding what the GaN radars sees at 200kms being smaller than what the GaAS radar saw it as from 200kms away. Using an old platform with new electronics and new missiles against a stealth aircraft which itself gets new electronics and missiles with a cheaper price tag makes the choice obvious what should be bought. I am going to be standing on the sidelines on what morons will purchase Rafael in this time and age. Atleast the turks had the courtesy to call the hurjet a 4th compared to the French calling the Rafael a 5th gen+.

Overall I am Iinterested in developments of su-75s, F-35s, su-57s and f-22s and how far India and turkey would get with their 5th gen programs. Although I will say I am upset that users brought up politics with Pakistan that caused Rodeo to leave and stay in defense Hub who did not bring up politcs and just discussed turkeys military equipment. I mean I would try to private message him to come back but sadly I can't guarantee some users(not all users) here will make promises to shut up about politics.

The 100 million for each Rafale is utter bullshit. Dumb people just divided total deal value by 36. The deal included infra development at 2 bases, training of pilots, A2A missiles including the uber expensive meteor, A2G munitions like Hammer, Scalp cruise missile, spares and support

 

[johnj]

I think I remember someone saying to me here that India blew over 100 million dollars for each Rafael which in that case might be one of the biggest ripoffs in military purchasing history and India is lucky the country doesnt have jews yet.

Based on American and Russian forums and discussions alone any stealth platform with physical design alone and not material offers a 100 fold decrease in RCS along with reduction in infrared detection, if F-35s sell under 100 million dollars and it was not purchased over a nonstealth aircraft for over 100 millions than I an sorry to admit it was a stupid decision. Only difference that makes rafael slightly better is you can fly the Rafael more since flights for it costs less than the flights for F-35s.

It wouldn't even matter if a GaN radar over a GaAS radar bumped up the target detection from 1m2 at 200kms to 250kms because the 100 fold decrease in RCS is far too significantly small exceeding what the GaN radars sees at 200kms being smaller than what the GaAS radar saw it as from 200kms away. Using an old platform with new electronics and new missiles against a stealth aircraft which itself gets new electronics and missiles with a cheaper price tag makes the choice obvious what should be bought. I am going to be standing on the sidelines on what morons will purchase Rafael in this time and age. Atleast the turks had the courtesy to call the hurjet a 4th compared to the French calling the Rafael a 5th gen+.

Overall I am Iinterested in developments of su-75s, F-35s, su-57s and f-22s and how far India and turkey would get with their 5th gen programs. Although I will say I am upset that users brought up politics with Pakistan that caused Rodeo to leave and stay in defense Hub who did not bring up politcs and just discussed turkeys military equipment. I mean I would try to private message him to come back but sadly I can't guarantee some users(not all users) here will make promises to shut up about politics.

IAF is not against F35, the Q is, US interested to sell F35 to India or not, if yes why not there are introduced/ing F35 in mmrca/mrfa ?
On the other side, French is offering rafale, without any restrictions in use & integration of foreign systems and munitions
Its more about independence than money, and policies & laws are other issues - from both sides.

 

[BON PLAN]

I think I remember someone saying to me here that India blew over 100 million dollars for each Rafael which in that case might be one of the biggest ripoffs in military purchasing history and India is lucky the country doesnt have jews yet.

Based on American and Russian forums and discussions alone any stealth platform with physical design alone and not material offers a 100 fold decrease in RCS along with reduction in infrared detection, if F-35s sell under 100 million dollars and it was not purchased over a nonstealth aircraft for over 100 millions than I an sorry to admit it was a stupid decision. Only difference that makes rafael slightly better is you can fly the Rafael more since flights for it costs less than the flights for F-35s.

It wouldn't even matter if a GaN radar over a GaAS radar bumped up the target detection from 1m2 at 200kms to 250kms because the 100 fold decrease in RCS is far too significantly small exceeding what the GaN radars sees at 200kms being smaller than what the GaAS radar saw it as from 200kms away. Using an old platform with new electronics and new missiles against a stealth aircraft which itself gets new electronics and missiles with a cheaper price tag makes the choice obvious what should be bought. I am going to be standing on the sidelines on what morons will purchase Rafael in this time and age. Atleast the turks had the courtesy to call the hurjet a 4th compared to the French calling the Rafael a 5th gen+.

Overall I am Iinterested in developments of su-75s, F-35s, su-57s and f-22s and how far India and turkey would get with their 5th gen programs. Although I will say I am upset that users brought up politics with Pakistan that caused Rodeo to leave and stay in defense Hub who did not bring up politcs and just discussed turkeys military equipment. I mean I would try to private message him to come back but sadly I can't guarantee some users(not all users) here will make promises to shut up about politics.

The less than 100 USD million F35 need a very costly support.
The possession cost of the bird, not well defined even today because of the costly refresh programs, is seen has too heavy even in USA.
so...

 

[vishnugupt]

bro..if Dassault give this data about 9000+ kg weapon load for rafale. will u consider it random data?? look at 5 line. total external load capacity is more than nine tonnes. they r not talking about inbuilt fuel storage. do u want how much su 30 mki can carry external load. it is 8000 kg approx. yes su 30 mki hv more internal fuel storage, coz it consume more fuel.

View attachment 223356

So show us 14 hard points in Rafale.

Remember Dual Rake/triple take on one pylon doesn't count as a pylon.

 

[Picard]

So show us 14 hard points in Rafale.

Remember Dual Rake/triple take on one pylon doesn't count as a pylon.

View attachment 223733

So yes, 14 hardpoints. Of those, two are dedicated to pods, 6 are dedicated to air-to-air missiles, 2 are dedicated to air-to-ground ammunition, and 4 can carry both. Remaining two hardpoints are dedicated to pods.

Your photo shows 11 pylons being utilized.

 

[vishnugupt]

So yes, 14 hardpoints. Of those, two are dedicated to pods, 6 are dedicated to air-to-air missiles, 2 are dedicated to air-to-ground ammunition, and 4 can carry both. Remaining two hardpoints are dedicated to pods.

Your photo shows 11 pylons being utilized.

They look hypothetical 14 pylon. I doubt if all pylon can be used at once specially at fuselage.

Is there any picture available where fuselage pylon are being used fully??

 

[vin bharat mahan]

They look hypothetical 14 pylon. I doubt if all pylon can be used at once specially at fuselage.

Is there any picture available where fuselage pylon are being used fully??

bro....if u hv problem with Dassault claim of 14 hardpoint, u should sue them for "char sho beesi 420"...we r common people, if u win the case we will start quoting ur given hardpoints for rafale.

 

[DumbPilot]

@vin bharat mahan @vishnugupt @Picard you all will have to definitely give my effort some consideration, I spent about 2 hours looking for this image

2xMICA on the underbelly are definitely a viable option, how useful it is in real life? I don't know, but it definitely can be done.

I think the only thing remaining now is to actually find a real picture where they were testing this MICA configuration(if they ever tested it!), otherwise yes, as far as the discussion goes, the Rafale can carry a fully filled out underbelly loadout.

The 2xMICA trend is also valid for 2xMk82 and 2xMk83s, as well as 4xBLG66 Belouga.

Caractéristiques du Dassault-Aviation Rafale M [in french]