Know Your 'Rafale'

[vin bharat mahan]

@vin bharat mahan @vishnugupt @Picard

Mithun Chakraborty/Dance India Dance

youtube.com

 

[DumbPilot]

@vin bharat mahan @vishnugupt @Picard you all will have to definitely give my effort some consideration, I spent about 2 hours looking for this image

View attachment 223754

2xMICA on the underbelly are definitely a viable option, how useful it is in real life? I don't know, but it definitely can be done.

I think the only thing remaining now is to actually find a real picture where they were testing this MICA configuration(if they ever tested it!), otherwise yes, as far as the discussion goes, the Rafale can carry a fully filled out underbelly loadout.

The 2xMICA trend is also valid for 2xMk82 and 2xMk83s, as well as 4xBLG66 Belouga.

Caractéristiques du Dassault-Aviation Rafale M [in french]

Also found something interesting in the process. Apparently this is the DDG NM infrared sensor on the tail of the Rafale, for detecting IR/lasers:

https://soha.vn/print-20150720135113192.htm

Fisheye lens around the rear hemisphere of the aircraft. The clarity of the sensors is amazing.

 

[vin bharat mahan]

@vin bharat mahan @vishnugupt @Picard you all will have to definitely give my effort some consideration, I spent about 2 hours looking for this image

View attachment 223754

2xMICA on the underbelly are definitely a viable option, how useful it is in real life? I don't know, but it definitely can be done.

I think the only thing remaining now is to actually find a real picture where they were testing this MICA configuration(if they ever tested it!), otherwise yes, as far as the discussion goes, the Rafale can carry a fully filled out underbelly loadout.

The 2xMICA trend is also valid for 2xMk82 and 2xMk83s, as well as 4xBLG66 Belouga.

Caractéristiques du Dassault-Aviation Rafale M [in french]

r we going to see gallium nitrite aesa radar in F4 version of rafale nd M88 version 4 engine upgrade, which hv 95+ KN thurst. is france also working in laser pods like USA is doing??

 

[DumbPilot]

r we going to see gallium nitrite aesa radar in F4 version of rafale nd M88 version 4 engine upgrade, which hv 95+ KN thurst. is france also working in laser pods like USA is doing??

IDK about the engine/AESA radar, but the French already have the TALIOS:

It's their integrated TV/IR targeting/lasing pod

 

[BON PLAN]

2xMICA on the underbelly are definitely a viable option
[/QUOTE]
This config was never opened on a Rafale B, C or M. Only seen on Rafale A.
But if a customer need a Rafale with a maximum air to air missile load, it is possible.

 

[BON PLAN]

r we going to see gallium nitrite aesa radar in F4 version of rafale nd M88 version 4 engine upgrade, which hv 95+ KN thurst. is france also working in laser pods like USA is doing??

The next gan radar, RBE2-XG, for F5 std, will be fully GaN.
First flight in nearly 5 years for a full scale production early 2030.

No news about M88. But as all jets, Rafale will become heavier, so without a doubt it is on the drawing board. Rafale air intakes car support without modification a +15% engine power.

Laser on Rafale? probably not for F5. Maybe after.... The actual systems are far too heavy and big. See the systems already on test on US, D or Fr frigates.

 

[BON PLAN]

 

[vishnugupt]

bro....if u hv problem with Dassault claim of 14 hardpoint, u should sue them for "char sho beesi 420"...we r common people, if u win the case we will start quoting ur given hardpoints for rafale.

@vin bharat mahan @vishnugupt @Picard you all will have to definitely give my effort some consideration, I spent about 2 hours looking for this image

View attachment 223754

2xMICA on the underbelly are definitely a viable option, how useful it is in real life? I don't know, but it definitely can be done.

I think the only thing remaining now is to actually find a real picture where they were testing this MICA configuration(if they ever tested it!), otherwise yes, as far as the discussion goes, the Rafale can carry a fully filled out underbelly loadout.

The 2xMICA trend is also valid for 2xMk82 and 2xMk83s, as well as 4xBLG66 Belouga.

Caractéristiques du Dassault-Aviation Rafale M [in french]

So original question was rafale has 9.5 tons weapons carrying capacity while you claimed MKI has 10 tons.

My stand was Rafale payload capacity is not pure weapons capacity but mix of weapons and fuel but SU-30MKI payload is pure weapons capacity as Su-30mki carries 5 tons extra internal fuel as compared to Rafale.

That's why I said, having 14 hard points doesn't mean you can use all 14 for weapons. No proof available either. 14 hard points are more for convience rather than actual use.

Su-30mki can carry 8tons of ordinance at any given time for all kind of roles but Rafale can't carry 8tons weapons for all the time.

Su-30mki known as a bomb truck because of its pure weapons carrying capacity. You can't make Rafale bomb truck because it severely decreased it's range.

 

[Picard]

They look hypothetical 14 pylon. I doubt if all pylon can be used at once specially at fuselage.

Is there any picture available where fuselage pylon are being used fully??

I don't see why they wouldn't be all usable.

Here you can see all eight wing hardpoints + 2 side body hardpoints + one of two centerline hardpoints - that is, 11 hardpoints - being used.

Rafale Tested with Maximum Weapons Load – 12 Guided Weapons Underwing - Defense Update:

Dassault Aviation has begun testing an upgraded variant of the Rafale configured to carry an expanded configuration of weapons and fuel. This configuration will enable the French strike fighter aircraft to attack more targets and conduct counter-air missions at longer range. At present, the...

defense-update.com

Note that this is Rafale M, which only has 13 hardpoints to begin with.

Also found something interesting in the process. Apparently this is the DDG NM infrared sensor on the tail of the Rafale, for detecting IR/lasers:

https://soha.vn/print-20150720135113192.htm

View attachment 223756

Fisheye lens around the rear hemisphere of the aircraft. The clarity of the sensors is amazing.

It is not for detecting lasers, it is missile approach warning. Uses IR cameras, which means that it can detect even coasting missiles at very long range, unlike radar-based MAWS (which is range-limited) or UV-based MAWS (which is even longer-ranged, but can only detect missiles that are actively burning).

 

[vishnugupt]

I don't see why they wouldn't be all usable.

Here you can see all eight wing hardpoints + 2 side body hardpoints + one of two centerline hardpoints - that is, 11 hardpoints - being used.

Rafale Tested with Maximum Weapons Load – 12 Guided Weapons Underwing - Defense Update:

Dassault Aviation has begun testing an upgraded variant of the Rafale configured to carry an expanded configuration of weapons and fuel. This configuration will enable the French strike fighter aircraft to attack more targets and conduct counter-air missions at longer range. At present, the...

defense-update.com

Note that this is Rafale M, which only has 13 hardpoints to begin with.

Thank you for proving my point. Now read headlines again.

Rafale tested with Maximum weapons payload load. Now you can count weapons which is maximum in pics.

At maximum, you can count actual payload. 6* 340kg bombs, 4MICA and 2 meteor missiles. So total weapon capacity is not even 3.5 ton.

Even if you add maximum weapons still you need to keep fuel tanks which will eat up half of payload. Such limitation is not with SU-30mki because it does not need to carry fuel tank.

Rafale is advance fighter jet compare to MKI but nowhere near in term of payload and range.

 

[Picard]

Thank you for proving my point. Now read headlines again.

Rafale tested with Maximum weapons payload load. Now you can count weapons which is maximum in pics.

At maximum, you can count actual payload. 6* 340kg bombs, 4MICA and 2 meteor missiles. So total weapon capacity is not even 3.5 ton.

Even if you add maximum weapons still you need to keep fuel tanks which will eat up half of payload. Such limitation is not with SU-30mki because it does not need to carry fuel tank.

Rafale is advance fighter jet compare to MKI but nowhere near in term of payload and range.

And? I have never denied that MKI has more internal fuel and thus more range or else more useful capacity at the same range. So what tree are you barking at? My entire point was that Rafale has 14 hardpoints and it can use 14 hardpoints at the same time. That's all.

But since you have decided to derail us into having this discussion now, I have to note that you have clearly missed that:
1) Aircraft being tested in Rafale M, which has one less hardpoint than Rafale C (so a total of 13).
2) Photos show 11 hardpoints being used, with only two pod-only hardpoints not being used (which is why I posted the image).
3) Therefore, Rafale C has 12 usable hardpoints, exactly as I have stated. Add two pod-only hardpoints, and that is 14 hardpoints.
4) Maximum weapons payload is not maximum hardpoints usage. You will notice that, had this been Rafale C instead of Rafale M, central fuel tank will have blocked the aft centerline hardpoint. Also, read the article: "configured to carry an expanded configuration of weapons and fuel", "The weapons would take less than a third of the fighter’s payload – the rest will be used to carry fuel to sustain the long range missions the fighter is required to perform.".

Maximum payload means maximum weight - and in this case you have 2 * MICA IR (224 kg), 2 * MICA EM (224 kg), 2 * Meteor (380 kg), 6 * Sagem/Hammer (2 040 kg), and 3 * 2 000 l tanks (6 700 kg), or a total of 9 568 kg, of which weapons are 2 868 kg.

This configuration:

Has 4 * MICA EM (448 kg), 2 * SCALP (2 600 kg) and 3 * 2 000 l tanks (6 700 kg), which gives a total of 9 748 kg, of which weapons are 3 048 kg.

So the first configuration is clearly not the maximum weight of weapons Rafale can carry, just the maximum number (since 2 SCALPs weight more than 6 Hammers). And since both wing tank hardpoints can mount SCALP instead of the fuel tank, you can technically go up to 5 648 kg of weapons. It's just that you probably wouldn't ever want to, considering the loss of range.

 

[vishnugupt]

And? I have never denied that MKI has more internal fuel and thus more range or else more useful capacity at the same range. So what tree are you barking at? My entire point was that Rafale has 14 hardpoints and it can use 14 hardpoints at the same time. That's all.

But since you have decided to derail us into having this discussion now, I have to note that you have clearly missed that:
1) Aircraft being tested in Rafale M, which has one less hardpoint than Rafale C (so a total of 13).
2) Photos show 11 hardpoints being used, with only two pod-only hardpoints not being used (which is why I posted the image).
3) Therefore, Rafale C has 12 usable hardpoints, exactly as I have stated. Add two pod-only hardpoints, and that is 14 hardpoints.
4) Maximum weapons payload is not maximum hardpoints usage. You will notice that, had this been Rafale C instead of Rafale M, central fuel tank will have blocked the aft centerline hardpoint. Also, read the article: "configured to carry an expanded configuration of weapons and fuel", "The weapons would take less than a third of the fighter’s payload – the rest will be used to carry fuel to sustain the long range missions the fighter is required to perform.".

Maximum payload means maximum weight - and in this case you have 2 * MICA IR (224 kg), 2 * MICA EM (224 kg), 2 * Meteor (380 kg), 6 * Sagem/Hammer (2 040 kg), and 3 * 2 000 l tanks (6 700 kg), or a total of 9 568 kg, of which weapons are 2 868 kg.

This configuration:

Has 4 * MICA EM (448 kg), 2 * SCALP (2 600 kg) and 3 * 2 000 l tanks (6 700 kg), which gives a total of 9 748 kg, of which weapons are 3 048 kg.

So the first configuration is clearly not the maximum weight of weapons Rafale can carry, just the maximum number (since 2 SCALPs weight more than 6 Hammers). And since both wing tank hardpoints can mount SCALP instead of the fuel tank, you can technically go up to 5 648 kg of weapons. It's just that you probably wouldn't ever want to, considering the loss of range.

I think you are barking under wrong tree. The argument was that Rafale weapons payloads is not equal to Su-30mki.

Check whom I have tagged initially. That guy claimed both have equal weapons carrying capacity which is wrong notion.

 

[vin bharat mahan]

So original question was rafale has 9.5 tons weapons carrying capacity while you claimed MKI has 10 tons.

My stand was Rafale payload capacity is not pure weapons capacity but mix of weapons and fuel but SU-30MKI payload is pure weapons capacity as Su-30mki carries 5 tons extra internal fuel as compared to Rafale.

That's why I said, having 14 hard points doesn't mean you can use all 14 for weapons. No proof available either. 14 hard points are more for convience rather than actual use.

Su-30mki can carry 8tons of ordinance at any given time for all kind of roles but Rafale can't carry 8tons weapons for all the time.

Su-30mki known as a bomb truck because of its pure weapons carrying capacity. You can't make Rafale bomb truck because it severely decreased it's range.

View attachment 223842

View attachment 223843

so bro u r saying...on rafale we hv to put external drop tanks in every mission or we cant fit bombs there?? when Dassault already said rafale can carry more than 9 tons external weight (which i showed u earlier), than why u r saying it cant carry 9 ton weapons on its 12 hard points. even rest 2 hardpoints which is dedicated for pods, can also weaponized, by costomize UAV light bombs of 5 kg to 50 kg (atleast in theory). su 30 mki claim it can carry 8 ton external loads on its 12 hardpoints nd rafale can carry 9.5 ton external loads. why u r including su 30 mki internal fuel weight here?? r we compairing range here??? or u r saying without drop tanks rafale cant compete any missions. if u r complaining rafale cant carry weapons of 9+ tons nd it hv no picture to proof it, than u r refusing it cant costomize/add dual, triple nd quad pylons in future to add more weapons.

 

[BON PLAN]

So original question was rafale has 9.5 tons weapons carrying capacity while you claimed MKI has 10 tons.

My stand was Rafale payload capacity is not pure weapons capacity but mix of weapons and fuel but SU-30MKI payload is pure weapons capacity as Su-30mki carries 5 tons extra internal fuel as compared to Rafale.

That's why I said, having 14 hard points doesn't mean you can use all 14 for weapons. No proof available either. 14 hard points are more for convience rather than actual use.

Su-30mki can carry 8tons of ordinance at any given time for all kind of roles but Rafale can't carry 8tons weapons for all the time.

Su-30mki known as a bomb truck because of its pure weapons carrying capacity. You can't make Rafale bomb truck because it severely decreased it's range.

View attachment 223842

View attachment 223843

Rafale is a small medium bird (in the medium familly, just compare it to SH18).
Su30 is a heavy one.
It's just to compare cat and dog !

 

[BON PLAN]

Thank you for proving my point. Now read headlines again.

Rafale tested with Maximum weapons payload load. Now you can count weapons which is maximum in pics.

At maximum, you can count actual payload. 6* 340kg bombs, 4MICA and 2 meteor missiles. So total weapon capacity is not even 3.5 ton.

Even if you add maximum weapons still you need to keep fuel tanks which will eat up half of payload. Such limitation is not with SU-30mki because it does not need to carry fuel tank.

Rafale is advance fighter jet compare to MKI but nowhere near in term of payload and range.

No, it's not the maximum.
For exemple you can replace the 6 x 340 kg bombs by 2 x 1350kg SCALP.
You can also imagine bigger external tanks, specially under the frame.
The point 3 can also be fitted with a rockets pod instead of lighter MICA.

 

[spacemarine2023]

If economy remains positive Modi if comes back likely will order 36 more Rafales for IAF.
IAF looks pretty happy from the video.

 

[Narasimh]

If economy remains positive Modi if comes back likely will order 36 more Rafales for IAF.
IAF looks pretty happy from the video.

What about the MRCA? IAF will not let go of that. I expect more than 100 rafales in IAF

 

[spacemarine2023]

What about the MRCA? IAF will not let go of that. I expect more than 100 rafales in IAF

MRCA is more or less dead now the way US is playing double games, IAF looks like they have found their darling before stealth comes.
Even if we waste time going through MRCA looking at the face of Eastern Air commander they will force Govt to choose Rafale only why waste time then go for G2G again.
Also I am certain there is some strategic deal with France in case of active war, France will ship few squadrons of Rafale and Mirage from its inventory.

French are not too happy with backstabbing from their US and UK cousins on submarine episode with Ozees.. they can be smwht trusted by Indians

 

[BON PLAN]

If economy remains positive Modi if comes back likely will order 36 more Rafales for IAF.
IAF looks pretty happy from the video.

From the very beginning my bet for IAF was between 72 and 108 Rafale (for IAF only. IN is a very surprising news).
Some said 200.... only a dream to my humble opinion.

 

[Narasimh]

MRCA is more or less dead now the way US is playing double games, IAF looks like they have found their darling before stealth comes.
Even if we waste time going through MRCA looking at the face of Eastern Air commander they will force Govt to choose Rafale only why waste time then go for G2G again.
Also I am certain there is some strategic deal with France in case of active war, France will ship few squadrons of Rafale and Mirage from its inventory.

French are not too happy with backstabbing from their US and UK cousins on submarine episode with Ozees.. they can be smwht trusted by Indians

Yes I too believe they will go through the process to select rafale in the end..it's for Dassault to lose.. but g2g for more than 100 such fighters will cause a political hungama again.. better they nail the negotiations in the multi-vendor competition itself with HAL or TATA as production partners and hopefully Dassault does no blunder quoting the L1