Know Your 'Rafale'

[spacemarine2023]

You are right for the price, but how many AtoA missiles did India used these last 20 years ?
It 's more a question of quality than quantity.

last 20 years India was very close to wars both with China and pakistan and now even we are …
India needs quantity and quality both but if we can afford one I will say quantity has better quality than only quality

 

[Fonck83]

You are right for the price, but how many AtoA missiles did India used these last 20 years ?
It 's more a question of quality than quantity.

You can not only consider the past to build an army. There are also the risk of war. High intensity wars like ukrainian war show that quantity is a quality in itself and a strategy of great value.

And considering that astra on rafale is already on the way to be a reality then I think it's a very good point.

"Parmi les principales entreprises avec lesquelles BDL a signé un protocole d'accord, citons MBDA, France, pour la fabrication de missiles Mistral chez BDL, Dassault Aviation Pvt Ltd. pour l'intégration de systèmes d'armes tels que Astra et SAAW sur l'avion Rafale,"

Bharat Dynamics Limited signe un contrat avec le ministère de la défense du gouvernement indien pour la production et la fourniture du système d'armes Akash à l'armée indienne

Bharat Dynamics Limited a signé un contrat d'un montant de 81 610 millions d'INR avec le ministère de la défense du gouvernement indien pour la production et la fourniture du système d'armement...

www.zonebourse.com

 

[BON PLAN]

last 20 years India was very close to wars both with China and pakistan and now even we are …
India needs quantity and quality both but if we can afford one I will say quantity has better quality than only quality

See how Pak used AMRAAM in 2019 : quantity was useless because no quality (it's not specially the AMRAAM fault, but the lack of training and mastery)

 

[BON PLAN]

You can not only consider the past to build an army. There are also the risk of war. High intensity wars like ukrainian war show that quantity is a quality in itself and a strategy of great value.

The past has nothing to do with quality.
Quantity is a quality, but having 1000 missiles with 5% of kill probability is less potent and deterrent than 300 missiles with 50% kill probability.

 

[BON PLAN]

Dassault Aviation Pvt Ltd. pour l'intégration de systèmes d'armes tels que Astra et SAAW sur l'avion Rafale,"

Bharat Dynamics Limited signe un contrat avec le ministère de la défense du gouvernement indien pour la production et la fourniture du système d'armes Akash à l'armée indienne

Bharat Dynamics Limited a signé un contrat d'un montant de 81 610 millions d'INR avec le ministère de la défense du gouvernement indien pour la production et la fourniture du système d'armement...

www.zonebourse.com

Good news, for India and even for some Rafale customers with an option for a cheaper weapon range.

 

[spacemarine2023]

See how Pak used AMRAAM in 2019 : quantity was useless because no quality (it's not specially the AMRAAM fault, but the lack of training and mastery)

AMRAAM did hit Mig 21, regarding salvo of 5 AMRAAM’s I am pretty sure pakis were not expecting to hit 2D TVC Su30 MKI armed with one of the best ECM to be hit from DMAX ranges just to make sure Sukhois keep clear of an area.
I wouldn’t expect PAF to be lacking training or mastery pretty sure best of them get same flying hours as Indian or western nations.

 

[BON PLAN]

I wouldn’t expect PAF to be lacking training or mastery pretty sure best of them get same flying hours as Indian or western nations.

I'm all but not sure USA gave them all the BVR keys, and the best AMRAAM possible...

 

[johnj]

I'm all but not sure USA gave them all the BVR keys, and the best AMRAAM possible...

USA sold aim120c5 and aim9m to PAF.
PAF lacks aim120c7/c8/d, so they depend on SA and china for advanced modern bvr missiles
Pakistan Chooses Raytheon's Proven Air Defense Missiles to Secure Borders
TUCSON, Ariz., Jan. 15, 2007 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The country of
Pakistan has signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the procurement of
500 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) - generating the
largest single international AMRAAM purchase -- and 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder
missiles.
This is also the first AMRAAM missile procurement between Raytheon
Company (NYSE: RTN) and Pakistan. Delivery of the AMRAAM missiles will
start in 2008 and continue through 2011.
The combined $284 million procurement augments Pakistan's established
inventory and will provide the bulk of the air-to-air fire power of the
Pakistan Air Force. AMRAAM is a joint U.S. Air Force and Navy program and
sets the global beyond-visual-range standard. It incorporates the latest
digital technology and microminiaturized solid-state electronics, making
this remarkable weapon more reliable and maintainable, resulting in the
highest dependability at the lowest cost of ownership.
Thirty-two countries have procured AMRAAM based on its unprecedented
air combat flexibility. The AIM-9M Sidewinder missile is a combat-proven,
all- aspect, infrared-guided, short-range air-to-air missile employed by
more than 20 countries worldwide.
"This is the largest single purchase of AMRAAM missiles in the history
of the AMRAAM international program," said Brock McCaman, vice president of
Raytheon Missile Systems' Air-to-Air product line. "The combat-proven
'one-two punch' of Raytheon's AMRAAM/Sidewinder technology will give the
Pakistan Air Force the necessary firepower to accomplish vital air defense
missions."
Raytheon Company, with 2005 sales of $21.9 billion, is an industry
leader in defense and government electronics, space, information
technology, technical services, and business and special mission aircraft.
With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs 80,000 people
worldwide.

 

[spacemarine2023]

USA sold aim120c5 and aim9m to PAF.
PAF lacks aim120c7/c8/d, so they depend on SA and china for advanced modern bvr missiles
Pakistan Chooses Raytheon's Proven Air Defense Missiles to Secure Borders
TUCSON, Ariz., Jan. 15, 2007 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The country of
Pakistan has signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the procurement of
500 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) - generating the
largest single international AMRAAM purchase -- and 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder
missiles.
This is also the first AMRAAM missile procurement between Raytheon
Company (NYSE: RTN) and Pakistan. Delivery of the AMRAAM missiles will
start in 2008 and continue through 2011.
The combined $284 million procurement augments Pakistan's established
inventory and will provide the bulk of the air-to-air fire power of the
Pakistan Air Force. AMRAAM is a joint U.S. Air Force and Navy program and
sets the global beyond-visual-range standard. It incorporates the latest
digital technology and microminiaturized solid-state electronics, making
this remarkable weapon more reliable and maintainable, resulting in the
highest dependability at the lowest cost of ownership.
Thirty-two countries have procured AMRAAM based on its unprecedented
air combat flexibility. The AIM-9M Sidewinder missile is a combat-proven,
all- aspect, infrared-guided, short-range air-to-air missile employed by
more than 20 countries worldwide.
"This is the largest single purchase of AMRAAM missiles in the history
of the AMRAAM international program," said Brock McCaman, vice president of
Raytheon Missile Systems' Air-to-Air product line. "The combat-proven
'one-two punch' of Raytheon's AMRAAM/Sidewinder technology will give the
Pakistan Air Force the necessary firepower to accomplish vital air defense
missions."
Raytheon Company, with 2005 sales of $21.9 billion, is an industry
leader in defense and government electronics, space, information
technology, technical services, and business and special mission aircraft.
With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs 80,000 people
worldwide.

AIM120C5 were the most advanced when PAF got the gift from USA… and on Feb 2019 they were the most advance BVR missiles in Indian subcontinent .. PAF had more than a decade to master the craft when it was put in action.

 

[johnj]

AIM120C5 were the most advanced when PAF got the gift from USA… and on Feb 2019 they were the most advance BVR missiles .. PAF had more than a decade to master the craft when it was put in action.

No. C7 is the best bvr missile in US at that time and on Fed 2019 sd10a/b were the best bvr missiles

 

[spacemarine2023]

No. C7 is the best bvr missile in US at that time and on Fed 2019 sd10a/b were the best bvr missiles

In Indian Subcontinent Aim120C5 were the most advanced when they were inducted in 2007-08 by PAF and still were most advanced on Feb 2019,

SD-10 sensors are reversed engineered from R-77s they are not more advance than C5s.
Also C5 were supported by much better Radar than JF-17 one on Feb 2019

 

[Fonck83]

An interesting thing happened during a recent joint exercise between Indonesia and France Air Force 3 weeks ago, Rafale is said to be able to lock on Indonesian F-16 at a distance of 80 NM (nautical mile).

Jajal "Backseat” Rafale, Seorang Penerbang TNI AU Bisa Kunci 6 Target Bersamaan

“Dedi juga mengakui kemampuan sistem radar pesawat Rafale yang dapat melacak 40 target dan mengunci enam target secara bersamaan,' ungkap Agung.

nasional.kompas.com

Trying out the Rafale "Backseat", an Air Force Aviator Can Lock 6 Targets Simultaneously

An Air Force fighter aviator, Major Pnb Dedi "Kingbee" Andres, had the opportunity to try out the Rafale fighter jet from the French Air Force which was visiting Indonesia.

Dedi "Kingbee", who is an aviator from Air Squadron 1 of Supadio Air Base, tried flying the Rafale from the backseat.

During the three-hour flight, Dedi and the French Air Force pilot carried out an Air to Air Refueling (AAR) mission using an A-330 MRTT tanker aircraft.

This AAR mission also involved three Air Force F-16 fighter aircraft from Air Squadron 3 and Air Squadron 14 of Iswahjudi Air Base in the Iswahjudi Air Base training area, East Java, on Tuesday (25/7/2023).

"During the three-hour flight, a lot of Rafale sophistication was seen and felt directly by "Kingbee", starting from the ideal aircraft cockpit design, powerful aircraft engines, and sophisticated aircraft avionics systems," said Head of the Air Force Information Service (Kadispenau) Marsma R Agung Sasongkojati in a written statement, Thursday (27/7/2023).

Agung said, "Kingbee" also shared his experience when Rafale was able to lock three F-16 aircraft from a distance of 80 NM or 140 kilometers that were taking off from Iswahjudi Air Base.

Within 40 NM or 70 kilometers, the camera on the left nose of the aircraft was able to visually display the three locked aircraft on the screen display in the cockpit.

"Dedi also recognized the Rafale aircraft's radar system capability that can track 40 targets and lock onto six targets simultaneously. Likewise, the electronic warfare and data link capabilities are very significant," Agung said.

Rafale is also capable of performing Air Combat Maneuvers well, including for Beyond Visual Range, Air to Air and Air to Ground.

Currently, the French Air Force is exhibiting Rafale fighter jets at the South Terminal of Halim Perdanakusuma Air Base, East Jakarta, in the Pegase 2023 mission.

It is known that the Rafale fighter jet from the manufacturer Dassault Aviation was ordered by Indonesia to strengthen the Indonesian Air Force.

In the Pegase 2023 mission, the French Air Force actually brought a total of six Rafale fighters, four Airbus A400M transport aircraft, and three A-330 MRTT tankers.

However, based on Kompas.com's observation on Wednesday, there were only two Rafale units and one A-330 MRTT. Other aircraft will arrive at Halim Airport gradually.

Pegase 2023 mission leader Lieutenant Colonel Henri said the Rafale on display had been used by the French Air Force since 2006.

"So in this operation, we want to deepen partnerships, cooperation in the Pacific region and Indonesia, of course to deepen partnerships with the TNI," Henri said.

The Pegase 2023 mission is also a continuation of the Jeanne d'Arc 23 mission stopover and Guard Guerrier exercises, as well as the empowerment of the French defense aeronautics industry.

It is planned that the French Air Force will carry out a number of joint activities with the Indonesian Air Force until Sunday (30/7/2023).

In addition to Indonesia, the French Air Force also visited Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea, Japan, Qatar, and Djibouti.

 

[Fonck83]

Within 40 NM or 70 kilometers, the camera on the left nose of the aircraft was able to visually display the three locked aircraft on the screen display in the cockpit.

The 40 NM of the camera mean that at this range A pilot can identify a plane, not only to detect it but to identify !!!! That's mean that the rafale optronic can detect at 80 nm at least !!!!

 

[BON PLAN]

AIM120C5 were the most advanced when PAF got the gift from USA… and on Feb 2019 they were the most advance BVR missiles in Indian subcontinent .. PAF had more than a decade to master the craft when it was put in action.

It is well known that export version of all the US weapons are weaker than those for USA and very near ally (five eyes, Japan...).
So the PAK AIM120C5 are not so potent than the same of USAF.
Same for tactics, counter electronic measures... : all is not given for these 2nd or 3rd rank partner.

 

[spacemarine2023]

It is well known that export version of all the US weapons are weaker than those for USA and very near ally (five eyes, Japan...).
So the PAK AIM120C5 are not so potent than the same of USAF.
Same for tactics, counter electronic measures... : all is not given for these 2nd or 3rd rank partner.

same for R77s which were provided to India by Russia, but as far as seeker tech goes pretty sure degraded seekers from US will be better than Russian export version R77s or SD-10(Reverse engineered R77 seekers only) …

 

[BON PLAN]

same for R77s which were provided to India by Russia, but as far as seeker tech goes pretty sure degraded seekers from US will be better than Russian export version R77s or SD-10(Reverse engineered R77 seekers only) …

Same probably for MICA and Meteor....

 

[spacemarine2023]

Same probably for MICA and Meteor....

pretty sure about that… thats why India focused on:

Astra MK1– Single Pulse Motor — India equivalent of Aim120 C series

Astra MK2 — Duel Pulse Solid Motor Aim 120 D series or PL-15

Astra MK3 —- Ramjet similar to Meteor

 

[BON PLAN]

pretty sure about that… thats why India focused on:

Astra MK1– Single Pulse Motor — India equivalent of Aim120 C series

Astra MK2 — Duel Pulse Solid Motor Aim 120 D series or PL-15

Astra MK3 —- Ramjet similar to Meteor

But what about the seekers ?
It is the most complicated to study and produce.

 

[spacemarine2023]

But what about the seekers ?
It is the most complicated to study and produce.

India has mastered the seeker tech. Astra MK1 seeker is more accurate than any other export versions BVRs we have currently in inventory and with MK2 we are perfecting our designs…

 

[Wisemarko]

Since French cannot make their own ejection seats:
INDIA RECEIVES BATCH OF RAFALE FIGHTERS FITTED WITH MARTIN-BAKER MK.16 EJECTION SEATS
The Indian Air Force (IAF) Dassault Aviation Rafale aircraft left Merignac in Southwest France on 27th July and are expected to land at Ambala Air Base in India on 29th July after a brief pit-stop in the UAE.

The Indian Air Force and Navy account for 1,013 Martin-Baker Ejection Seats in service today, making India Martin-Baker’s 2nd largest global customer. India currently operates Mk.4, Mk.9, Mk.10, Mk.11 and Mk.16 Ejection Seats, in service in the HJT-16, Jaguar, Mirage, Hawk, PC-7 MkII, Tejas, HJT-36 and now Rafale aircraft.

https://martin-baker.com/news_events_post/india-receives-first-batch-of-rafale-fighters-fitted-with-martin-baker-mk-16-ejection-seats/