Know Your 'Rafale'

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Heck Rafale didn't even have an HMD till India paid billion dollars to French for it.

Obviously, even the F-35's HMDS is also very very costly to such extent that it requires gadgets to calibrate each helmet specifically to the pilot.

 

[Wisemarko]

bcoz all they wanna do is ultimately deflect any incoming RF missile, SAM or AAM, then why to try to jam any radar?

Then the diameter of F-35's engine is 117cm Vs Rafale's engine's 70cm. Both jets try to shield their plumes but fossil fuel burning can be limitedly hidden, hence F-35's plume is much more detectable than Rafale's.

So are you saying SEAD and DEAD are unnecessary? When enemy is firing at you without any reason to stop, as a pilot you don't just turn on a jammer and carry on with the mission! That attack mission turns into evade and survive with high G evasive maneuvering, deviation from the mission course, dropping of stores and eventual abandonment of the mission- No matter how effective your jamming technology is.
Therefore, SEAD/DEAD are extremely important to obtain air superiority in any war. Rafale just lacks that ability at present and others have it. Simple as that. Will future upgrades make Rafale have it? Yes. Will that make it a dedicated EA platform? No. It will only bring it on par with its colleagues from US and Europe.

The diameter of one engine of Rafale is 70 cm. It has 2 engines- F-35 has one. Rafale also has much higher metal content than F-35 that heats up.

 

[Wisemarko]

Obviously, even the F-35's HMDS is also very very costly to such extent that it requires gadgets to calibrate each helmet specifically to the pilot.View attachment 149349

So you are ok with paying millions of dollars for Rafale to have an older HMD but not ok with price of a state of the art HMD in F-35! Lol

 

[Wisemarko]

Similarly F-35 although intended for export cannot have everything bcoz of economics.

There is nothing absent in F-35 because of economics. In fact it is one of the most expensive and least economical programs in the history. Anything missing or not ready in F-35 is only because lack of available technology. It is that cutting edge.

USA ... it is untrustworthy in bigger & critical things like fighter jets. Hence overall Rafale was the best choice for us

That's a great reason to buy Rafale and actually only valid reason. Therefore there is no need to try bring down the capabilities of F-35 to justify Rafale purchase. India are not Dassault's marketing team so stop acting like one! You are a customer who made the choice under specific circumstances. That's it!

 

[Wisemarko]

rafale uses RWR with phase interferometry techniques that can passively locate targets upto 1 deg of accuracy at 200km, electronic attack from aesa isn't exclusive to usaf fighters how can you say rafale doesn't have it, i agree with what you said about stand off jamming

Phase telemetry is like a digital zoom on your camera - it can amplify only what it can see but it cannot match telescopic zoom. By not having enough sensors due to design limitations all 4th Gen fighters including Rafale "make up" for physical deficiencies with software enhancements. If you want true 1 degree directional accuracy you need lot of sensors - 10 all around in case of F-35 compared to 3 in Rafale. Now someone here will come and try show how 3 is better than 10.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

My reply has been always neutral from tech PoV. I mostly talk on 5th gen on any website.

So are you saying SEAD and DEAD are unnecessary? When enemy is firing at you without any reason to stop, as a pilot you don't just turn on a jammer and carry on with the mission! That attack mission turns into evade and survive with high G evasive maneuvering, deviation from the mission course, dropping of stores and eventual abandonment of the mission- No matter how effective your jamming technology is.
Therefore, SEAD/DEAD are extremely important to obtain air superiority in any war. Rafale just lacks that ability at present and others have it. Simple as that. Will future upgrades make Rafale have it? Yes. Will that make it a dedicated EA platform? No. It will only bring it on par with its colleagues from US and Europe.

When did i say that SEAD/DEAD is not important? I did mention that a gen gap exist & F-35 emphasizes on broadband jamming while Rafale focuses on self-protection only. And IAF has SED/DEAD capability by other platforms.
But RBE2 radar has also become AESA from PESA 2012 onwards, included in IAF version. The TR modules have been increased from 800 to near 1000. Now Rafale can also do EW by radar to considerable extent, not as good as F-35 obviously. But only # of TRMs is not only thing, the S/w programming by engineers which directs the H/w also matters & the French are also very intelligent people in multiple industrial areas.

The diameter of one engine of Rafale is 70 cm. It has 2 engines- F-35 has one. Rafale also has much higher metal content than F-35 that heats up.

Again i did mention that I'm not giving any discount to Rafale & both jets try to shield the plume their ways but higher the diameter, longer the plume with afterburner, that's practical as per laws of thermodynamics.
But if F-35 A & C can include TVC &/or F-22 like nozzle then it will be unbeatable in every sense.

So you are ok with paying millions of dollars for Rafale to have an older HMD but not ok with price of a state of the art HMD in F-35! Lol

It is u who thinks foolishly that we r paying extra only for HMD.
We common citizens won't get insight into exact breakup of the deal. In every Indian news channel there was concern of high cost. But there seems to be diff. b/w F-3 & F-4 versions + some extra custmizations for IAF. The Indian Rafale seems to be an evolved Rafale just like Indian version Su-30MKI from which Su-35 & Su-30SM got modifications.

There is nothing absent in F-35 because of economics. Anything missing or not ready in F-35 is only because lack of available technology. It is that cutting edge.

Then why F-22 is not exported but F-35 is? Include TVC in MLU then F-35 will be complete & unbeatable.

In fact it is one of the most expensive and least economical programs in the history.

That's what we are also saying Even your own documentaries & news channels criticize F-35 program management.
Thanks for the confession.

That's a great reason to buy Rafale and actually only valid reason. Therefore there is no need to try bring down the capabilities of F-35 to justify Rafale purchase. India are not Dassault's marketing team so stop acting like one! You are a customer who made the choice under specific circumstances. That's it!

Money & trust matters a lot. Just like your iPhones & Nike shoes, ur F-35 is also overpriced. U only said above it is among most expensive & least economical products.
And show me where my reply is like Dassault's marketing. Did i accuse u of being a LM's advertizer? I have appreciated & criticized both jets where it is required.
And F-35 was never on our MRCA list whichis a 4++ gen tender. GoI/IAF have made clear that there won't be any 5th gen jet import, instead AMCA will be developed. U guys brought F-35 on table to stop us from purchasing S-400 SAM & still thinking of imposing CAATSA on us when we are not adversary to any country (except Pakistan & its supporters) especially on the opposite face of the planet.
We compared F-18, F-16-IN, F-15-EX & customized Rafale, not just technically but politically also where USA fails miserably. 1 day even EU will exit NATO & stop supporting u guys.

 

[SARTHAK]

Money & trust matters a lot. Just like your iPhones & Nike shoes, ur F-35 is also overpriced. U only said above it is among most expensive & least economical products.
And show me where my reply is like Dassault's marketing. Did i accuse u of being a LM's advertizer? I have appreciated & criticized both jets where it is required.
And F-35 was never on our MRCA list whichis a 4++ gen tender. GoI/IAF have made clear that there won't be any 5th gen jet import, instead AMCA will be developed. U guys brought F-35 on table to stop us from purchasing S-400 SAM & still thinking of imposing CAATSA on us when we are not adversary to any country (except Pakistan & its supporters) especially on the opposite face of the planet.
We compared F-18, F-16-IN, F-15-EX & customized Rafale, not just technically but politically also where USA fails miserably. 1 day even EU will exit NATO & stop supporting u guys.

the way USA's daleep singh tried arm-twisting with india speaks a lot about USA coercive diplomacy

 

[BON PLAN]

The diameter of one engine of Rafale is 70 cm. It has 2 engines- F-35 has one.

I'm not sure it is better for IR trace to have two 70 cm diam engines than a single of +/- 100cm...
Rafale probably need a less use of after burner also.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Phase telemetry is like a digital zoom on your camera - it can amplify only what it can see but it cannot match telescopic zoom. By not having enough sensors due to design limitations all 4th Gen fighters including Rafale "make up" for physical deficiencies with software enhancements. If you want true 1 degree directional accuracy you need lot of sensors - 10 all around in case of F-35 compared to 3 in Rafale. Now someone here will come and try show how 3 is better than 10.

We all agree to the gen gap due to comprehensive sensor suite giving higher accuracy but this is transition phase where 4++ gen jets r doing what they can & is considerable for now. Rafale definitely lacks embedded sensors in numbers, i did raise concern over just 1 SPECTRA antenna on each side. But like F-35's AN/AAQ-37 detected rocket plume using 10x digital zoom, not telescopic zoom, but it fulfilled the requirement of passive optical detection, that's all is required. Similarly Rafale to considerable extent can locate threats with acceptable accuracy through sensor fusion from DDM MAWS, RWR & SPECTRA antennas.

Rafale's EW can also calculate approximate dynamic SAM engagement circles as per its RCS in different orientations & incoming SAM emissions. This is similar to system in F-22/35 & now proliferated to F-15/16/18.

Extra SPECTRA sensor is added behind below exhaust but i'm not confirmed if same has been done in frontal hemisphere. It is a small antenna so perhaps blended in leading edge slats or somewhere else. I have not seen pics of other Rafales with this add-on.

And if F-35 has towed decoy so does Rafale, included in IAF version.

IAF will have option to use integrated tablet as extra display.

Let's see what future MLUs of F4.x & F5 will bring exactly. They have outlined things like -
SPECTRA optimization
AESA-EW
SCAF intrgration
Increased multi-spectral multi-functional antennas embedded into airframe rather than portruding.

 

[BON PLAN]

Let's see what future MLUs of F4.x & F5 will bring exactly. They have outlined things like -
SPECTRA optimization
AESA-EW
SCAF intrgration
Increased multi-spectral multi-functional antennas embedded into airframe rather than portruding.

You can add :
Multistatism (for a definitive good bye to stealth)
Multisector optronic system
Side and conformal array for radars.
cloud and more satellite link.
Probably some stealth containers for air to ground and maybe air to air weapons for first days strike.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

You can add :
Multistatism (for a definitive good bye to stealth)
Multisector optronic system
Side and conformal array for radars.
cloud and more satellite link.
Probably some stealth containers for air to ground and maybe air to air weapons for first days strike.

I copied from French website, it is their product & plan.
>I don't now what is Multistatism.
>Multisector optronic system means DAS. Theoreticaly it can be done. They can replicate the OSF on chin also, or an EOTS. Or near the LWR they can implement static faceted DAS/IRST.
Currently the radar+OSF provides low altitude terrain-following navigation, collision avoidance & night IR sight. The new HMDS would display basic HUD & target info. And their DDM MAWS already provides hemispherical coverage. All these are sufficient for 4th gen improvements. Beyond this it will become a new jet altogether like MiG-29 to 35 or Su-27 to 35. Implementing a humpy bumpy CFT is easier than inflating or extending airframe. When they have declared FCAS then i don't think they will implement DAS on Rafale. But let's see what future brings.
Similar system was tested on F-16-ES. F-16-AFTI concept also had wing-root mounted EOTS + nose IRST but they didn't implement in any of their 4th gen jets & still wanna extend their life. God knows what fruit came out of all these lavish R&D.

>For side radar i don't think Rafale has space nor its airframe can be economically modified. But as they mentioned SPECTRA optimization, "multi-spectral multi-functional antennas" so they might replace current RWR & jammer with multifunction AESA antennas.
>Cloud-computing is a terrestrial implementation from commercial computing industry. It simply means aggregating all computing/networking/storage resources with rapid elasticity, which is used in a DataCenter. But military N/w is very scattered, dynamic, need to be much more secured & robust. There are separate military standards of computing. So Cloud is not applicable to isolated jet fighter real-time avionics.

>Rafale already has VHF, UHF, GPS & SATCOM antennas.

>The problem with stealth containers is that after use they become big liability. And bcoz they are stealth means highly invested secret component, they can't be jettisioned like fuel tanks, especially in enemy airspace.

 

[Wisemarko]

F-35 is also overpriced. U only said above it is among most expensive & least economical products.

Please learn the difference between over the budget program and an overpriced product.
F-35 sells for far less than Rafale, Eurofighter or F-15. Majority of the cost is eaten by US government.
Finland finalized its $9.4 billion purchase of 64 Lockheed Martin F-35s and support services. India paid almost that much for only 36 Rafale!
French are mooching you in broad daylight and here you are defending them! Where can I get that servitude?

Rafale already has VHF, UHF, GPS & SATCOM antennas.

Which Fighter jet or commercial plane today won't have these?!

Let's see what future MLUs of F4.x & F5 will bring exactly. They have outlined things like -
SPECTRA optimization
AESA-EW
SCAF intrgration

You talk as if future developments only happen to Rafale and everyone else will be twiddling their thumbs waiting.

Sadly, despite all that Rafale will still remain a 4th generation fighter that French themselves want to replace in 2040 with Tempest what they call a 6th generation fighter (but basically has what future F-35 versions would ).

Rafale to considerable extent can locate threats with acceptable accuracy through sensor fusion from DDM MAWS, RWR & SPECTRA antennas.

What is "acceptable"?!! That's not how wars work.
You do not have to defend French technology or its limitations. Indians should talk like a customer not a pawn! Why didn't you demand AESA or Meteor integration on Mirage? That's because this pawn mentality- they tricked you and you fell for it.
See you think you are scoring a point by sticking to this anti-US attitude but that costs you. Especially when you have arms merchants like French and Russians ready to suck you dry. Nothing is free. Peace.

Also stop posting pics unnecessarily. It doesn't prove anything more than the fact that Rafale is what it always was.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

the way USA's daleep singh tried arm-twisting with india speaks a lot about USA coercive diplomacy

So there's the answer - he is USA's now, not Bharat Mata's Laal. His recent visit & statements were acts of utter immaturity, oversmartness, overconfidence, forgetting what USA has done in Vietnam, middle-east, Africa, etc. Their own Hollywood movies highlight military coups, corrupt private mil. contractors, dirty covert ops, etc.
Every Indian origin person is not trustworthy. World is in grey shades. There are so many anti-national people in our own country & community then what to expect from certain type of NRIs & emigrants? Most of these people are fed from outside like remote controlled toys & don't care about fate of our country bcoz they will b given safe passage, settlement & protection abroad if required.
Russia sells weapons & oil to both sides of border. In war with China what will Russia do? It will be neutral like we are neutral in Ukraine conflict. We already know it but USA thinks itself as oversmart & all others as fools. It justs wants a permanent crack b/w us & Russia & establish its market in our country.
USA has also sold arms to both sides of border but it never defended us either. In 1971 BDL war, we all know what did Naval Task-Force-74 do?
USA wants freedom to sell weapons & other things to entire world but it opposes freedom of all countries to purchase as per their will

 

[Fonck83]

Please learn the difference between over the budget program and an overpriced product.
F-35 sells for far less than Rafale, Eurofighter or F-15. Majority of the cost is eaten by US government.
Finland finalized its $9.4 billion purchase of 64 Lockheed Martin F-35s and support services. India paid almost that much for only 36 Rafale!
French are mooching you in broad daylight and here you are defending them! Where can I get that servitude?

Can you explain this

F-35 cuts, F-15 boost, and E-3 replacement: Air Force's $170B budget makes big moves in FY23 - Breaking Defense

According to two sources with knowledge of the matter, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall had tasked the service’s budget corps to consider cancelling the F-15EX. Instead, it will receive a plus-up in the FY23 request.

breakingdefense.com

"In total, the service will request 33 F-35As for $4.5 billion " without support services and weapon.

You talk as if future developments only happen to Rafale and everyone else will be twiddling their thumbs waiting.

Sadly, despite all that Rafale will still remain a 4th generation fighter that French themselves want to replace in 2040 with Tempest what they call a 6th generation fighter (but basically has what future F-35 versions would ).

Is a 5gen a plane with a 1000 hours lifetime engine ? Like the F-35


What is "acceptable"?!! That's not how wars work.
You do not have to defend US technology or its limitations. Indians should talk like a customer not a pawn! Why didn't you demand Meteor or any indian Missiles integration on F-35? That's because this pawn mentality- they tricked you and you fell for it.
See you think you are scoring a point by sticking to this anti-US attitude but that costs you. Especially when you have arms merchants like US and UK ready to suck you dry. Nothing is free. Peace.

Also stop posting pics unnecessarily. It doesn't prove anything more than the fact that Lightning is what it always was.

 

[Fonck83]

Phase telemetry is like a digital zoom on your camera - it can amplify only what it can see but it cannot match telescopic zoom. By not having enough sensors due to design limitations all 4th Gen fighters including Rafale "make up" for physical deficiencies with software enhancements. If you want true 1 degree directional accuracy you need lot of sensors - 10 all around in case of F-35 compared to 3 in Rafale. Now someone here will come and try show how 3 is better than 10.

It seem that signal treatment has no meaning for you.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Please learn the difference between over the budget program and an overpriced product.
F-35 sells for far less than Rafale, Eurofighter or F-15. Majority of the cost is eaten by US government.
Finland finalized its $9.4 billion purchase of 64 Lockheed Martin F-35s and support services. India paid almost that much for only 36 Rafale!
French are mooching you in broad daylight and here you are defending them! Where can I get that servitude?

Hey man! every OEM country is a moocher & market exploiter. But USA & UK are the most untrustworthy countries imposing sanctions even in those matters which is not theirs. But countries like Russia, Israel & France don't do that. That's why we reject ur critical products. How many times will i repeat?????
U guys mooch & exploit our commercial market also with ur iPhones, shoes, KFC, McDonalds, Jockey, etc. So even ur underwears are also overpriced
I already told u that we common citizens won't have access to exact deal details; & a country chooses product based on multiple factors of technicality, trust, own priorities, currency exchange rates, tech transfer, licensed production or pure import, etc, etc. Hence other countries buying F-35 cannot be compared to us considering it.

You guys are using an Indian origin politician named Daleep Singh against us, coming to our country & telling us not to get oil from Russia, with what authority??? This is clearly against international diplomacy & courtesy. U guys turned Kamala Devi Harris also against us.
U guys conducted so many atomic tests & couldn't tolerate our just 1 Pokhran test & then pushing us to sign CTBT??
You guys spent billions in your STAR WARS SDI program but our ASAT & BMD programs are huge issues for u guys??
Then u guys have supported a terror country like Pakistan since decades!!!
U guys r much more infamous for mooching & smooching
And then u expect us to buy your fighter jets so that later u can puppet & handicap us comprehensively?????

Which Fighter jet or commercial plane today won't have these?!

Exactly, so i was just answering the member's query.

You talk as if future developments only happen to Rafale and everyone else will be twiddling their thumbs waiting.
Sadly, despite all that Rafale will still remain a 4th generation fighter that French themselves want to replace in 2040 with Tempest what they call a 6th generation fighter (but basically has what future F-35 versions would ).

You should direct this to French, not us. But still, in a Rafale thread i will focus on Rafale primarily or not?????????? But i'm a big time F-22 fan also since 1990s. I have praised & criticized all the 4th gen jets of all countries from tech PoV where they deserved, including the X & Y series American jets.
2040 is still 18 years away, that's a long time needing a stopgap measure by 4++ gen jets which even USAF is doing with latest blocks of F-15/16/18 which u guys also intend to sell to the world to fund your 6th gen R&D.

What is "acceptable"?!! That's not how wars work.
You do not have to defend French technology or its limitations. Indians should talk like a customer not a pawn! Why didn't you demand AESA or Meteor integration on Mirage? That's because this pawn mentality- they tricked you and you fell for it.

There u go again with your relentless typical American manipulative puppeting strategy, jealous of other foreign partnerships
Our past monarch government had kept us as pawn for long time, we r trying to get out of that ditch now. USA still doesn't understand that we wanna partner with everybody but u guys have fresh strategy & tactics to have us break up with Russia, France, Israel, etc to create your unrivaled market & apparently make ourselves YOUR PAWN.
On Mirage-2000, no M2K can fire Meteor & none have AESA. Every upgrade costs money, we have our own programs & priorities too. We have used Mirage-2000 as a precision ground attack jet like in Kargil war & recent anti-terror campaign in Balakot. For A-A battles we have Su-30MKI, MiG-29UPG & Rafale now. LCA MK1A will be available too. So why to spend too much on M2K? In past recent years some upgrades have been done with missiles, cockpit, avionics, etc. Our M2Ks can fire MICA, Astr & R-73AE AAMs & its RDY-2 radar has SAR function. They refused integration of Meteor on Su-30MKI & LCA, so we are fine with current capability of our M2K. And recently as a stopgap measure we will get a squad of old French M2Ks in very cheap deal after full inspection ofcourse, some jets will b for spares. An export version is supposed to be inferior to domestic version, so their domestic M2Ks are better than export versions but at a very cheap price, not for very long, only till our LCA MK1A & MWF squads will hopefully start replacing them all.

See you think you are scoring a point by sticking to this anti-US attitude but that costs you. Especially when you have arms merchants like French and Russians ready to suck you dry. Nothing is free. Peace.

I'm not going to get any score certificate to get a job. I'm already an experienced engineer here for some time-pass. I'm not anti-US either but i hate some particular things. So it is USA having anti-world attitude & wants to dominate the entire planet & suck every country. Your last 100 years are evident enough + recent childish & manipulative actions by your "diplomats".

Also stop posting pics unnecessarily. It doesn't prove anything more than the fact that Rafale is what it always was.

Only plain text is so boring, pics makes forum informative. And no country will reveal its full military deal to anybody, that's supposed to be secret, simple. Common citizens like us will keep guessing the deal.

 

[BON PLAN]

>For side radar i don't think Rafale has space nor its airframe can be economically modified

The tile conformal array are now very slim. Some 40 mm is in the pipe.
There are space available in the 2 bulbs were the canards are installes for exemple.
All the Rafale frames from F3R are modified so as to be compliant with F4.2 and beyond. Side arrays are in the road map of F4.3 or F5...

 

[BON PLAN]

The problem with stealth containers is that after use they become big liability. And bcoz they are stealth means highly invested secret component, they can't be jettisioned like fuel tanks, especially in enemy airspace.
View attachment 149508

These containers may be jettisonable in case of... and more aero shapped that on this picture.
It is only usefull in the very first days of a war, the time to destroy the opponent radars and SAM.

 

[BON PLAN]

Finland finalized its $9.4 billion purchase of 64 Lockheed Martin F-35s and support services. India paid almost that much for only 36 Rafale!

False again.
The Finland deal is without weapon.
The indian deal is with weapons, with a 75% availability multi years contract, with 50% offsets (so it increase the price by... 50% !) and 2 air bases accomodations.

 

[Wisemarko]

False again.
The Finland deal is without weapon.
The indian deal is with weapons, with a 75% availability multi years contract, with 50% offsets (so it increase the price by... 50% !) and 2 air bases accomodations.

Buying a 4th Gen fighter like Rafale with same price is a bad deal. Period. Go find a deal where Rafale actually won against f-35