Know Your 'Rafale'

[Echo1Charlie]

Actually, I think he was in a su 30 asking the rafales to launch what seems to be HAMMER PGMs at a couple of, presumably, pakistani f-16s that had already launched some weapons at his su 30.
So I guess you could have gone with "super sukhoi cockpit setup" instead of f4. But....whatever

Don't remind me of that Su-30 with thrustmaster joystick

 

[Echo1Charlie]

How much misinformation one can put in a single comment!
EW:
Rafale does not come even close to F-35 in
EW!
eg: Rafale cannot mount active electronic attack like F-18G and F-35. It has 10 times less electronic power to do so. SPECTRA is primarily a defensive suite with barely 3 passive sensors, supported by small 800 TRM AESA of old design. F-35 radar has double the TRM, latest notch arena design( that RBE- of Rafale lacks) that is 2 generations ahead of Rafale radar. Please don't make yourself look like a fool repeating nonsense!

IR signature:
Really?!! I should not even respond to this. A mostly metal design (Rafale) with two engines has less IR signature than composite design, shrouded, heat dissipating single higher bypass engine! Wow for tall claims.

Agility/ Turn rate- yes absolutely. The older designs focused on speed- see how fast Mig-21/F-4 were. They all are Mach >2.
Then came low speed agility: F-18, Gripen, Eurofighter, Rafale all <=Mach 2.. then came stealth F-22, F-35 (at cost of first two features). That's called evolution.

Weapons: Rafale doesn't even have anti radiation weapons! Except meteor which is being fitted right now to F-35, Rafale doesn't have a single weapon that is even close to what all US aircraft can carry: it has a very limited and overprlist of weapons actually:
1. Mica
2. Meteor
3. SCALP
4. Exocet
5. HAMMER
6. Paveway II/ III kits
THATS IT!! No JDAM/ No NSM/ no HARM

Compare that to this--
F-35 Weapons compatibility

• AIM-9X Sidewinder
• AIM-132 ASRAAM
• AIM-120 AMRAAM
• MBDA Meteor (Block 4, for F-35B)
• Air-to-surface missiles:
  • AGM-88G AARGM-ER (Block 4)
  • AGM-158 JASSM
  • SPEAR 3 (Block 4, in development)
  • Joint Air-to-Ground Missile(JAGM)
• Air-to-surface/Anti-ship missiles:
  • Joint Strike Missile (JSM)
• Anti-ship missiles:
  • AGM-158C LRASM
• A2G:
  • Paveway series laser-guided bombs
  • AGM-154 JSOW
  • Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) series

There is no comparison...

"800 TRM AESA of old design. F-35 radar has double the TRM, latest notch arena design( that RBE- of Rafale lacks) that is 2 generations ahead of Rafale radar".- Can you please elaborate this?

 

[Shekhar Singh]

"800 TRM AESA of old design. F-35 radar has double the TRM, latest notch arena design( that RBE- of Rafale lacks) that is 2 generations ahead of Rafale radar".- Can you please elaborate this?

He knows nothing. Don't think he will ever reply.

 

[BON PLAN]

I think BON PLAN meant F-16 but had a typo

Of course. it was a F16D.

 

[Picard]

How much misinformation one can put in a single comment!
EW:
Rafale does not come even close to F-35 in
EW!
eg: Rafale cannot mount active electronic attack like F-18G and F-35. It has 10 times less electronic power to do so. SPECTRA is primarily a defensive suite with barely 3 passive sensors, supported by small 800 TRM AESA of old design. F-35 radar has double the TRM, latest notch arena design( that RBE- of Rafale lacks) that is 2 generations ahead of Rafale radar. Please don't make yourself look like a fool repeating nonsense!

IR signature:
Really?!! I should not even respond to this. A mostly metal design (Rafale) with two engines has less IR signature than composite design, shrouded, heat dissipating single higher bypass engine! Wow for tall claims.

Agility/ Turn rate- yes absolutely. The older designs focused on speed- see how fast Mig-21/F-4 were. They all are Mach >2.
Then came low speed agility: F-18, Gripen, Eurofighter, Rafale all <=Mach 2.. then came stealth F-22, F-35 (at cost of first two features). That's called evolution.

Weapons: Rafale doesn't even have anti radiation weapons! Except meteor which is being fitted right now to F-35, Rafale doesn't have a single weapon that is even close to what all US aircraft can carry: it has a very limited and overprlist of weapons actually:
1. Mica
2. Meteor
3. SCALP
4. Exocet
5. HAMMER
6. Paveway II/ III kits
THATS IT!! No JDAM/ No NSM/ no HARM

Compare that to this--
F-35 Weapons compatibility

• AIM-9X Sidewinder
• AIM-132 ASRAAM
• AIM-120 AMRAAM
• MBDA Meteor (Block 4, for F-35B)
• Air-to-surface missiles:
  • AGM-88G AARGM-ER (Block 4)
  • AGM-158 JASSM
  • SPEAR 3 (Block 4, in development)
  • Joint Air-to-Ground Missile(JAGM)
• Air-to-surface/Anti-ship missiles:
  • Joint Strike Missile (JSM)
• Anti-ship missiles:
  • AGM-158C LRASM
• A2G:
  • Paveway series laser-guided bombs
  • AGM-154 JSOW
  • Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) series

There is no comparison...

1. What active electronic attack? If you refer to using directional AESA jammers, that is one of features that Rafale has. SPECTRA transmits jamming signal through active phased antennas, which is basically the same thing that F-35 and Growler do. And like Growler, Rafale can carry jamming pods if needed. And Rafale's radar can just as easily be used as a jammer. But as a rule, Rafales operate with no pods or escorts - it simply isn't necessary. Which is also why SPECTRA is a self-defense suite: Rafale was always intended to replace all of French aircraft, so why bother with providing standoff jaming when each aircraft is its own jammer?

And F-35 radar two generations ahead of Rafale's radar? Old RBE-2, maybe. RBE-2AA, no.

2. Rafale is not "mostly metal design".

And if you mean structure, then both aircraft are mostly metal by design: composites account for 35% of empty weight of F-35 and 26% of Rafale.

Rafale's engine also has significant heat dissipation measures (M88 is, in fact, specifically designed to reduce its EM and IR signatures). Shrouded? Yes, F-35's engine is shrouded to an extent - but so is Snecma M88:

See how recessed the inner nozzle is? That is by design, precisely to reduce IR signature of the engine, hiding both the hottest part of the nozzle as well as the hottest part of the exhaust plume from every aspect barring the rear quadrant.

Now, F-35's engine nozzle is recessed, which does help with IR signature. But it is nowhere as hidden as Rafale's inner nozzle is:

Rafale is capable of supercruise at Mach 1,4 with 6 missiles (Mach 1,3 with 6 missiles and a centerline tank), which means that it doesn't really need to use afterburner all that much. F-35 can "dash" for 150 miles at Mach 1,2 without afterburner - it has no real supercruise capability. As a result, at any given speed, Rafale will use less of its engine power, and will engage afterburner full 0,1 / 0,2 M above F-35, as well as being able to avoid its use for much of the operation. This rather negates F-135's higher bypass ratio.

3. Yes, it is called evolution. Just as F-4 evolved. USAF thought that radar and missiles meant that agility is no longer necessary, and then F-4s and F-105s got trounced by MiG-17s and MiG-19s. Lo and behold, USAF went back, installed guns on its fighters, modified them for greater agility - such as better engines, slats and so on - and in the end, F-4s achieved good kill ratio.

4. Rafale weapons compatibility:

1. Air-to-Air Missiles:
   1. MICA IR
   2. MICA EM
   3. Meteor
2. Air-to-Ground Missiles:
   1. SCALP
3. Anti-Ship Missiles:
   1. AM39 Exocet
4. Bombs:
   1. HAMMER
   2. Laser-guided bombs
   3. dumb bombs

So 8 vs 12. And when you look at F-35's weapons: Sidewinder and ASRAAM are a duplicate capability, as are AMRAAM and Meteor. Rafale might benefit from using IRIS-T due to its greater agility compared to MICA, but it has Meteor, which means it has no need to use AIM-120. And F-35 would benefit from it as well.

All and all, the only thing that is certain is that F-35 relies a lot on cutting edge technologies to compensate for its weaknesses in basic characteristics. Rafale doesn't have as extensive stealth, and may not have some of the other bells and whistles that F-35 does, but it has EW suite and far better kinematic performance. Meaning, if technology fails, it has something to fall back on. F-35? Not so much.

 

[Wisemarko]

What active electronic attack?

You don't even know what that is and here you are lecturing others on EW. Stick to your wine dude and leave defense matters to professionals. You are not convincing ANYONE sane that a 4th generation Rafale is better than F-35. It is not and that is why it has NEVER won a single competition against it.
Rafale is barely as good as F-18 E/F which is actually much better than Rafale in electronic warfare, carrier ops and weapons compatibility. F-18 AN/APG-79 radar significantly more powerful and in design a generation ahead of RBE-AA.

 

[Picard]

And here you are lecturing others on EW! stick to your wine.

You said that "Rafale cannot mount active electronic attack like F-18G and F-35.", and then proceeded to describe things that Rafale can also do, especially since it can mount pods much like F-18G does. And much of it Rafale doesn't need to do, unless it is escorting a non-Rafale ally.

So, again, what special "active electronic attack"?

Try to understand things beyond LM publicity materials, maybe, and once you understand what you are typing, it will also be easier for others to understand you as well.

 

[Wisemarko]

You said that "Rafale cannot mount active electronic attack like F-18G and F-35.", and then proceeded to describe things that Rafale can also do, especially since it can mount pods much like F-18G does. And much of it Rafale doesn't need to do, unless it is escorting a non-Rafale ally.

So, again, what special "active electronic attack"?

Try to understand things beyond LM publicity materials, maybe, and once you understand what you are typing, it will also be easier for others to understand you as well.

You do not know what electronic attack is and therefore you deserve no further discussion. Sorry I don't teach children.

 

[Shekhar Singh]

You don't even know what that is and here you are lecturing others on EW. Stick to your wine dude and leave defense matters to professionals. You are not convincing ANYONE sane that a 4th generation Rafale is better than F-35. It is not and that is why it has NEVER won a single competition against it.
Rafale is barely as good as F-18 E/F which is actually much better than Rafale in electronic warfare, carrier ops and weapons compatibility. F-18 AN/APG-79 radar significantly more powerful and in design a generation ahead of RBE-AA.

Everyone who is countering your claims gives proper facts and logic behind their statements. Why can't you do the same. In your earlier posts you claimed that Rafale is not better than f16 block 52 and now saying that it's as good as F-18 E/F. If we wait for few more posts then you will say that Rafale is better than F35 but not better than upcoming American 6th gen FA

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

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Guys why r u writing the script of next James Bond 007 film where CIA & MI6 work together but also always argue

 

[SARTHAK]

while arguing about f35 vs rafale ,we SHOULD consider the differences in defense budgets ,the approach of two different air forces , suppose if you replace f15 with rafale in this comparision ,then if you say f35 is better than f15ex ,so why did usaf cancelled f35 orders and favoured more f15ex, truth is both are important ,f35 is basically the spearhead and after that initial blow f15ex can do the work ,in the same way for french rafale was made to be a true "omnirole" thing it is basically (semi stealth airframe+ one of the best sensor suites with a pocket friendly cost) considering the french budget ,the french can make a ewp pod like fa18 for rafale and upgrade sensor suite ,the result will be a very potent "5 gen minus"(usaf acronym) aircraft (aka a poor man's f35) that too not very intensive on maintenance which perfectly suites french budget rather than american approach which relies on extensive stealth

 

[Fonck83]

while arguing about f35 vs rafale ,we SHOULD consider the differences in defense budgets ,the approach of two different air forces , suppose if you replace f15 with rafale in this comparision ,then if you say f35 is better than f15ex ,so why did usaf cancelled f35 orders and favoured more f15ex

In fact USAF canceled F-35 not because it's a bad airplane but because the F-135 issues with its electrical power much to low considering General Fick statement. By design the electrical power needed is much to low for the block3F. Then the engine have to much electrical power to supply and this impact its life duration.
Its seem that the electrical power module have to be changed every more or less five years. PW was not ready tu supply so much power module. And then when you look at the f-35 supply chain is impacted with only 10 F-35 every moth since the last 3 months. It's more or less 20% less than last year. These 20% is more or less the number US have decreased their purchase.

 

[Picard]

You do not know what electronic attack is and therefore you deserve no further discussion. Sorry I don't teach children.

I know what electronic attack is. And it seems that I also know English better than you do.

And you know, if you have no counterargument, honest (and honorable) thing would be to admit that, instead of looking for excuses.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

@hit&run, request ur management team to delete personally abusive comments & delete/shift all irrelevant out-of-topic ones to appropriate threads if available, irrespective of member's nationality, to maintain quality & reputation of website. Thanks & regards.

 

[Covfefe]

Nope you don't. And therefore we have to end here.

Why don't you tell us what aspect of electronic attack is he leaving out? Won't that be more useful than this loop of "you wouldn't ask this if you knew that" meaningless tautology?

 

[BON PLAN]

Serbia is in talk to buy 6 Rafale.

La Serbie négocierait l'achat d'au moins 6 Rafale auprès de Dassault Aviation - Zone Militaire

En juillet 2020, le président Aleksandar Vučić, qui vient d'être réélu, avait plaidé pour un renforcement significatif des capacités militaires de son

www.opex360.com

 

[Wisemarko]

Why don't you tell us what aspect of electronic attack is he leaving out? Won't that be more useful than this loop of "you wouldn't ask this if you knew that" meaningless tautology?

Not meaningless at all. EA is well explained several times in this thread. There is no reason to explain over and over again to same people who are here for propaganda. EW can be divided in two major areas: escort jamming and standoff EA.

The fundamental role of Electronic Attack systems is to degrade and destroy (SEAD/DEAD) enemy electronic systems - Radars/SAM. Unlike "escort jamming" such "standoff jamming" mission requires a combination of dedicated electronic jammers such as ALQ-99, widely distributed passive sensors and powerful anti-radiation missiles (HARM). US used E-6 in the past and now F-18G/ F-35 for this role. These are dedicated systems for achieving electronic warfare superiority on the battlefield with multiple jamming pods covering different "bands", ample power to overwhelm native power of a radar system and weapons to destroy.

This is also very different from self-protection of a task force with escort jammers such as EL-8222 or SPECTRA.

Second evolution in EA is AESA radar itself. With high directional accuracy it can send narrow beams to actively jam enemy radars in air or ground! Pretty amazing actually.

For this a big radar with high peak power and widely distributed sensors (to accurately locate enemy emission) are needed. F-35 and even F-18 have very high directional accuracy thanks to 360 degree placement of sensors (10 in F-35, 6 in F-18) to mount a devastating SEAD attack using AESA radar TRM.

Now let's talk about Rafale:
First it doesn't have an anti-radiation missile. Because it was never designed for EA. Naturally it doesn't have enough power for standoff EW jamming pods or enough sensors to use such a non-existent pod. Thales is working on new pod to find an interim solution just like Gripen with its own EA pod.

Rafale does have a self protection and escort jamming suite called SPECTRA- that can protect the aircraft. One can argue which self protection suite is better in 4th Gen fighters (AN/ALQ-254, AN/ALQ-214, SAAB ICMS) but again, they remain self protection suites.
Now I do get tired of repeating the capability of over 1600 TRM notched behemoth APG-81 of F-35 or 1500 TRM APG-79 of F-18 with over 10x more peak power, wide band jammers, 1 degree locational accuracy and long range supersonic anti-radiation missiles to finish the job when none of these are present on a $150 million Rafale! Heck Rafale didn't even have an HMD till India paid billion dollars to French for it.

Sorry but there's only so much nonsense one can tolerate. So I will peace out.

 

[Covfefe]

Not meaningless at all. EA is well explained several times in this thread. There is no reason to explain over and over again to same people who are here for propaganda. EW can be divided in two major areas: escort jamming and standoff EA.

The fundamental role of Electronic Attack systems is to degrade and destroy (SEAD/DEAD) enemy electronic systems - Radars/SAM. Unlike "escort jamming" such "standoff jamming" mission requires a combination of dedicated electronic jammers such as ALQ-99, widely distributed passive sensors and powerful anti-radiation missiles (HARM). US used E-6 in the past and now F-18G/ F-35 for this role. These are dedicated systems for achieving electronic warfare superiority on the battlefield with multiple jamming pods covering different "bands", ample power to overwhelm native power of a radar system and weapons to destroy.

This is also very different from self-protection of a task force with escort jammers such as EL-8222 or SPECTRA.

Second evolution in EA is AESA radar itself. With high directional accuracy it can send narrow beams to actively jam enemy radars in air or ground! Pretty amazing actually.

For this a big radar with high peak power and widely distributed sensors (to accurately locate enemy emission) are needed. F-35 and even F-18 have very high directional accuracy thanks to 360 degree placement of sensors (10 in F-35, 6 in F-18) to mount a devastating SEAD attack using AESA radar TRM.

Now let's talk about Rafale:
First it doesn't have an anti-radiation missile. Because it was never designed for EA. Naturally it doesn't have enough power for standoff EW jamming pods or enough sensors to use such a non-existent pod. Thales is working on new pod to find an interim solution just like Gripen with its own EA pod.

Rafale does have a self protection and escort jamming suite called SPECTRA- that can protect the aircraft. One can argue which self protection suite is better in 4th Gen fighters (AN/ALQ-254, AN/ALQ-214, SAAB ICMS) but again, they remain self protection suites.
Now I do get tired of repeating the capability of over 1600 TRM notched behemoth APG-81 of F-35 or 1500 TRM APG-79 of F-18 with over 10x more peak power, wide band jammers, 1 degree locational accuracy and long range supersonic anti-radiation missiles to finish the job when none of these are present on a $150 million Rafale! Heck Rafale didn't even have an HMD till India paid billion dollars to French for it.

Sorry but there's only so much nonsense one can tolerate. So I will peace out.

Thanks for the info

 

[SARTHAK]

rafale uses RWR with phase interferometry techniques that can passively locate targets upto 1 deg of accuracy at 200km, electronic attack from aesa isn't exclusive to usaf fighters how can you say rafale doesn't have it, i agree with what you said about stand off jamming

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Constructive criticism of our own country's product from neutral/technical PoV is very important. Purchasing products depends on needs & priority. It is similar to a 3D Graphics designer may need a good high-end laptop but other common citizens including typical IT engineers may not.

Current gen will obviously lack few things of next gen, that's why we say the gen gap is there, so Rafale, EF-2000, MiG-35, etc, they can't match certain characteristics of 5th gen like RCS, comprehensive EW, networking, sensor fusion, etc. That's why the EU nations wan't to end the lag & have dumped 5th gen & started R&D on FCAS & Tempest, simple.

We Indians have also raised concerns over Rafale's price with current sensors, avionics, weapons which are becoming common expected standard. But there have been many impovements in Rafale according to following website. I hope the F4 improvements will really be fruitful.

RAFALE : Un avion évolutif - RAFALE : The omnirole fighter

Depuis sa mise en service, de régulières mises à jour lui permettent de rester à la pointe de la technologie. Le Rafale est un avion évolutif.

omnirole-rafale.com

Rafale F1 (2000-06)
A2A 30mm gun
RF MICA AAM
IR Magic-II AM
A2A radar fuunctions
MICA missile link to A/c
SPECTRA
in-flight refueling

F2 (2006-09)
IR MICA AAM
SCALP EG missile
Modular A2G armament (AASM)
L16 data link
A2G & A2S radar functions
Frontal optronics
SPECTRA complements

F3 (2009)
EXOCET missile
ASMP missile
Reco-NG aerial platform
A2G radar functions
Radar terrain tracking flight
Digiltal flight recorder
Rover & VHF-FM fit

F3.2
A2G gun firing
more radar modes
more SPECTRA functions
LGB

F3.3 (2013)
L16 link improvements
GBU-24
AESA plug & play

F3.4 (2014-18)
A2A gun improvements
pilot interface optimization
terrain following mode improvements
Unusual position warning
Military Grid reference System (NATO std. for geo. coordinates)
Navigation data possible

F3-O4T (2012-18)
RBE2 AESA
Missile departure detector
OSF-IT optronics improvement
incresed screen resolution
more transparent HUD
longer distance IFF

F3R (2018)
Talios LDP
SBU-54 LGB
GBU-16 LGB
Meteor missile
IFF mode-5 & mode-S transponder
GPS jamming resistance
SPECTRA revolution
moving target engagement
RECO-NG pod improvements
Auto ground collision avoidance
RBE2 countermeasure improvement
Fault diagnosis improvements

F4 (2024)
GMTI (Ground Moving Target Indicator)
SPECTRA: detetion & jamming extensions towards low & high bands to overcome triangulation methods
AASM MICA-NG
L16 block-2
Directional data-link
Reinforce N/w arch. gainst cyber attack
encrypted satcom
active EM decoy/jammer
wider side-screens
HMDS
OLS diagnostics
new engine ECU

F5(2030)
F6 (2040)
SPECTRA optimization
AESA-EW
SCAF intrgration
Increased multi-spectral multi-functional antennas embedded into airframe rather than portruding.

I'm not expert in electronics but perhaps the French didn't put up EW pod like F-18 Growler bcoz all they wanna do is ultimately deflect any incoming RF missile, SAM or AAM, then why to try to jam any radar? if F-18's GE-414 can power jammer pods then Rafale's M88 can also do it.
But if a jet's ECM/ESM/EW successfully deflects almost every RF missile then hardpoints can be used for weapons rather than jammers. The only question remains is that - can 1 small SPECTRA antenna on each side be sufficient to delfect almost every RF missile?

There is obviously a possibility that at least 1 missile may get through the Rafale's self-protection jamming hence F-35 fousses on broadband jamming which will reduce SAM engagements but also obviously increase cost.

Which country will choose which import depends on multiple factors like technicality, geopolitics, country's economy & budget allocation, relations & trust with various exporting countries, tech transfer, employment, etc. France often takes independent decisions & has been our supplier since Mirage days but USA although leading world in many things, is way too bossy, humiliating, dominating, manipulative, upseting for other nations through UN, NATO, sanctions, CAATSA, MTCR, CTBT, this, that, etc, etc, but USA wants everything & any country unwilling to trade with it becomes a threat by default, hence it is untrustworthy in bigger & critical things like fighter jets. Hence overall Rafale was the best choice for us, but we can't buy too many of it either, we have our priorities.

Currently every product cannot have everything or the product will be way too costly & there will be DEATH-SPIRAL. Even the costliest jet F-22 lacks EOTS, HUD-less HMDS, better cockpit displays, etc & now testing a mysterious pylon-pod system. F-22 was never intended for export.

Similarly F-35 although intended for export cannot have everything bcoz of economics. It has apparently strong EW due to evolution in H/w & S/w which makes it costly, it intends to jam SAM radars also, but is less agility than Rafale, EF-2000, Sukhois & perhaps latest MiGs too, which is crystal clear from videos. F-35 doesn't have TVC & has a typical tandem bi-plane arrangement & the wings appear to have been clipped, perhaps these things together makes it vulnerable in gun-fight if Sidewinder fails. Instantanious turn rate & sustained turn rate are different.
Then the diameter of F-35's engine is 117cm Vs Rafale's engine's 70cm. Both jets try to shield their plumes but fossil fuel burning can be limitedly hidden, hence F-35's plume is much more detectable than Rafale's.
IR missiles are evolving & are huge threat to every jet.
The F-35's afterburner plume reminds me of SR-71's plume

I'm not giving any discount to Rafale either

Today F-35's AN/AAQ-37 DAS sensor can detect rocket plume from 1,300Km

But what if tomorrow Frannce & other countries also catch up?

Hence be it any jet, current gen or next gen, not accepting the limitations & declaring a product to be all-aspect superior would be very stubborn.
Learn & move on.