Know Your 'Rafale'

[gryphus-scarface]

Kaveri has 52-54kN dry thrust while M88 has 50kN. averi weighs 1000kg while M88 weighs 900kg. It is definitely not having lesser dry thrust or 50% more weight than M88. It is wider but that can be adjusted by adjusting the rear of the plane to fit a slightly bigger engine. As I said, Rafale has used F404 engine during its early years and hence integrating Kaveri will be almost identical to F404 integration.

Nice try rounding the numbers. See the actual values here :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTRE_GTX-35VS_Kaveri

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snecma_M88

The Kaveri weighs 1,236Kg while the M88 weighs 897Kg. Not 50%, but 37% more weight. Seems like I was wrong about thrust output, but Kaveri also has lower TWR, and is still bigger than the M88. So no, unlikely to happen. And no, Rafale flying with F404 is not relevant.

 

[IndianHawk]

Actually, 80% of engine cost in in hot section. So, changing it is same as changing entire engine with a discount. No, we can't get hot parts enmasse as USA will not give it and we can't afford it. F414 costs $6 million. Hot section may cost 4.5-5 million. 2 engine will mean 9-10 million! Too expensive just for engine overhaul.

This photo shows the price.
The hpt module and afterburner cost less then a million. All other parts have lifespan of 4000hrs.
Even afterburner module has 3400hrs.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[IndianHawk]

https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=3351&start=2880#p2011725

This is the link on Bharat Rakshak from where above data is taken.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Nice try rounding the numbers. See the actual values here :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTRE_GTX-35VS_Kaveri

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snecma_M88

The Kaveri weighs 1,236Kg while the M88 weighs 897Kg. Not 50%, but 37% more weight. Seems like I was wrong about thrust output, but Kaveri also has lower TWR, and is still bigger than the M88. So no, unlikely to happen. And no, Rafale flying with F404 is not relevant.

Kaveri weighs same as F404. That is old figure where Kaveri was not working. Its TWR is 7.8, same as F404

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

This photo shows the price.
The hpt module and afterburner cost less then a million. All other parts have lifespan of 4000hrs.
Even afterburner module has 3400hrs.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

What is the source? Please give link. It appears like a excel sheet

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Kaveri weighs same as F404. That is old figure where Kaveri was not working. Its TWR is 7.8, same as F404

You know, Aero India happened in February. The Kaveri is arguably a very important project. If it was completed why was no noise made during AI? One of the biggest problems with Tejas is that its engine was replaced by the F404, which brought down TWR. On top of this, the Tejas intakes weren't optimised for the F404, so the Tejas actually underperforms. Don't you think more noise would be made by HAL and DRDO is Kaveri was actually ready today? The mk1A would potentially be a massive upgrade, much much better than the mk1. We know about the various missiles like Astra and SDFR, the MWF and AMCA (both of which are quite some time away from first flight) and many other programs. We read daily about some test or the other of Nirbhay or something else, yet we read nothing about the Kaveri. Don't you think India would be jumping if Kaveri was actually succesful?

See : http://forceindia.net/gtres-kaveri-engine-will-succeed/

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/let-them-take-flight/article26502547.ece

 

[Defcon 1]

Kaveri weighs same as F404. That is old figure where Kaveri was not working. Its TWR is 7.8, same as F404

Any source for the claim that Kaveri's weight is 1000 kg?

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

You know, Aero India happened in February. The Kaveri is arguably a very important project. If it was completed why was no noise made during AI? One of the biggest problems with Tejas is that its engine was replaced by the F404, which brought down TWR. On top of this, the Tejas intakes weren't optimised for the F404, so the Tejas actually underperforms. Don't you think more noise would be made by HAL and DRDO is Kaveri was actually ready today? The mk1A would potentially be a massive upgrade, much much better than the mk1. We know about the various missiles like Astra and SDFR, the MWF and AMCA (both of which are quite some time away from first flight) and many other programs. We read daily about some test or the other of Nirbhay or something else, yet we read nothing about the Kaveri. Don't you think India would be jumping if Kaveri was actually succesful?

See : http://forceindia.net/gtres-kaveri-engine-will-succeed/

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/let-them-take-flight/article26502547.ece

No, MK1A is just a stop gap measure. There is no real interest in pursuing it. MK1A is only to keep assembly running and to end teething problem. Since we already have Al31FP made in India, there is nothing to jump about Kaveri. India considers Su30 as enough for defending India for the time being.

Why will India replace F404 in Tejas when the program is a dead end? India is more focused on MWF & AMCA. That is also why Rafale deal was made so as to use Kaveri in Rafale and to make up for Tejas MK1 being a mistake

Any source for the claim that Kaveri's weight is 1000 kg?

DRDO website states the TWR to be 7.8 for 81kN enngine. So, 8100/7.8 = 1036kg.

 

[Immanuel]

I think an order 36 Rafale after the elections are a given

No, MK1A is just a stop gap measure. There is no real interest in pursuing it. MK1A is only to keep assembly running and to end teething problem. Since we already have Al31FP made in India, there is nothing to jump about Kaveri. India considers Su30 as enough for defending India for the time being.

Why will India replace F404 in Tejas when the program is a dead end? India is more focused on MWF & AMCA. That is also why Rafale deal was made so as to use Kaveri in Rafale and to make up for Tejas MK1 being a mistake


DRDO website states the TWR to be 7.8 for 81kN enngine. So, 8100/7.8 = 1036kg.

You are delusional if you think Kaveri will power anything other than the LCA (if at all).
No respectable air framer worth it's salt will not allow for this nonsense, certainly not Dassault with Rafale. Not happening. Besides isn't the M-88 being updated for G4 Rafale, where is the need to change it's engine after years of being proven on a platform.

Let Kaveri first power half a dozen LSPs for atleast 3-5 years of rigorous flight testing. Only then will it be allowed anywhere close to a Production LCA.

Till then the F414 will power the MMF and AMCA.

 

[Defcon 1]

DRDO website states the TWR to be 7.8 for 81kN enngine. So, 8100/7.8 = 1036kg.

Those are just the target specifications. Everyone knows that they were never achieved. Kaveri engine program was shut down after achieving 72kn of thrust and k9 and k10 projects were started. This is common knowledge. If kaveri had achieved the required specifications, f404 would never have been imported. So DRDO website doesn't mention the actual weight and thrust figures achieved.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

No, MK1A is just a stop gap measure. There is no real interest in pursuing it. MK1A is only to keep assembly running and to end teething problem. Since we already have Al31FP made in India, there is nothing to jump about Kaveri. India considers Su30 as enough for defending India for the time being.

Why will India replace F404 in Tejas when the program is a dead end? India is more focused on MWF & AMCA. That is also why Rafale deal was made so as to use Kaveri in Rafale and to make up for Tejas MK1 being a mistake

That's a pretty dumb argument. By your own logic : there's an indigenous alternative, so why import? Again, the Tejas will be here to stay, 123 of them will be with the IAF for at least 20 years. So to say that they are useless is silly. This also completely ignores the potential Malaysian export. No, the Kaveri is dead, and probably never achieved its targets. Unfortunate but true. Also the ADA said that MWF and AMCA will fly with F414. Don't you think they would change the statement?

DRDO website states the TWR to be 7.8 for 81kN engine. So, 8100/7.8 = 1036kg.

Target specs are not the actual specs.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Those are just the target specifications. Everyone knows that they were never achieved. Kaveri engine program was shut down after achieving 72kn of thrust and k9 and k10 projects were started. This is common knowledge. If kaveri had achieved the required specifications, f404 would never have been imported. So DRDO website doesn't mention the actual weight and thrust figures achieved.

How many times should I say that Frqnce has certified Kaveri? The 81kN is updated recently. Earlier it was showing 78kN which was the specifications. The actual is more than expected value.

I think an order 36 Rafale after the elections are a given


You are delusional if you think Kaveri will power anything other than the LCA (if at all).
No respectable air framer worth it's salt will not allow for this nonsense, certainly not Dassault with Rafale. Not happening. Besides isn't the M-88 being updated for G4 Rafale, where is the need to change it's engine after years of being proven on a platform.

Let Kaveri first power half a dozen LSPs for atleast 3-5 years of rigorous flight testing. Only then will it be allowed anywhere close to a Production LCA.

Till then the F414 will power the MMF and AMCA.

That is your assumption. The simple logic to use Kaveri on Rafale is that it will be indigenous and hence under Indian control. The political control of parts manufacturing is the key here. France refuses to give M88 Technology to India and hence it is being replaced by Kaveri

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

That's a pretty dumb argument. By your own logic : there's an indigenous alternative, so why import? Again, the Tejas will be here to stay, 123 of them will be with the IAF for at least 20 years. So to say that they are useless is silly. This also completely ignores the potential Malaysian export. No, the Kaveri is dead, and probably never achieved its targets. Unfortunate but true. Also the ADA said that MWF and AMCA will fly with F414. Don't you think they would change the statement?

No export to Malaysia is possible. India doesn't want to export. Exporting military items require lot of care which is not yet Indian forte.

Why import Rafale when Tejas is there? It is because Tejas was a mistake. India was short sighted and made a wrong decision to make a small plane. As a result, there was a plane which is suboptimal. Hence getting Rafale design to compensate for this mistake.

MWF & AMCA will fly with F414 as that is being used for development. But eventual indigenisation is obvious. I can't understand how one can be so foolish and think that F414 will be a permanent choice! What is the point of getting imported weapons in such critical area?

Target specs are not the actual specs

This is updated recently after certification by France. It is the correct figure. Till 2017, the number was 78kN which got changed after testing

 

[BON PLAN]

The simple logic to use Kaveri on Rafale is that it will be indigenous and hence under Indian control. The political control of parts manufacturing is the key here. France refuses to give M88 Technology to India and hence it is being replaced by Kaveri

There is a logic, yes,
But It will cost a lot to adapt Kaveri on Rafale, and the weigh of the engine is high (ie a problem for Center of Gravity...)
I think we will never see a Kaveri Rafale.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

No export to Malaysia is possible. India doesn't want to export. Exporting military items require lot of care which is not yet Indian forte.

Right. We just accidentaly sent a Tejas team to Malaysia to compete with the JF-17 and the Korean plane. We also accidentally replied to the RFI from Royal Malaysian Air Force. Seriously man. We are trying to export it. It will fail if RMAF decides that the other planes are better. Not because India is "inexperienced" or "lacks care", whatever that means.

Why import Rafale when Tejas is there? It is because Tejas was a mistake. India was short sighted and made a wrong decision to make a small plane. As a result, there was a plane which is suboptimal. Hence getting Rafale design to compensate for this mistake.

I've heard about this stupid idea called MWF. I don't know man, it seems silly. The Rafale and the MWF are so similar that there's no use, we should get rid of the MWF. Just buy more Rafales.

The MWF induction is expected to be around 2025, and the MMRCA induction shouldn't be much earlier, if all goes well. The MWF is going to fly with the F414. Rafale will fly with M88. I won't believe otherwise until I see concrete evidence that Kaveri is successful, and that ADA or HAL is trying to integrate it.

MWF & AMCA will fly with F414 as that is being used for development. But eventual indigenisation is obvious. I can't understand how one can be so foolish and think that F414 will be a permanent choice! What is the point of getting imported weapons in such critical area?

We don't know how long it will take for new engines to come. Kaveri unfortunately failed. If the MoD has any brains, they really are funding the K9 and K10, and hopefully at least one of them will be successful. Until they are successful though, our planes will fly with the F414. And it doesn't seem like the K9 or K10 will be in time for MWF.

This is updated recently after certification by France. It is the correct figure. Till 2017, the number was 78kN which got changed after testing

So they corrected the figure. Apparently the engine performed better than expected, but it isn't news worthy? Use your brain, Kaveri is dud. Sorry to say it, but unless DRDO integrates it into something, its a failure. We should instead immediately divert all of our resources into a new engine (K9 and K10) and maybe some residual people can try fixing the Kaveri.

 

[Nivas prasana]

Its really interesting.. and I'm dame sure that Modi ji has a big scammer..to hide that party will do all bad practices for Rafael scam.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

So they corrected the figure. Apparently the engine performed better than expected, but it isn't news worthy? Use your brain, Kaveri is dud. Sorry to say it, but unless DRDO integrates it into something, its a failure. We should instead immediately divert all of our resources into a new engine (K9 and K10) and maybe some residual people can try fixing the Kaveri.

Breakthrough for Kaveri engine, Clears Audit for Aircraft Integration

We don't know how long it will take for new engines to come. Kaveri unfortunately failed. If the MoD has any brains, they really are funding the K9 and K10, and hopefully at least one of them will be successful. Until they are successful though, our planes will fly with the F414. And it doesn't seem like the K9 or K10 will be in time for MW

You need not see everything.

I've heard about this stupid idea called MWF. I don't know man, it seems silly. The Rafale and the MWF are so similar that there's no use, we should get rid of the MWF. Just buy more Rafales.

The MWF induction is expected to be around 2025, and the MMRCA induction shouldn't be much earlier, if all goes well. The MWF is going to fly with the F414. Rafale will fly with M88. I won't believe otherwise until I see concrete evidence that Kaveri is successful, and that ADA or HAL is trying to integrate it.

This is because we need backups and can't completely rely on France.

Right. We just accidentaly sent a Tejas team to Malaysia to compete with the JF-17 and the Korean plane. We also accidentally replied to the RFI from Royal Malaysian Air Force. Seriously man. We are trying to export it. It will fail if RMAF decides that the other planes are better. Not because India is "inexperienced" or "lacks care", whatever that means.

We can't help, if Malaysia requests. Does not mean we will export

 

[Steven Rogers]

No, MK1A is just a stop gap measure. There is no real interest in pursuing it. MK1A is only to keep assembly running and to end teething problem. Since we already have Al31FP made in India, there is nothing to jump about Kaveri. India considers Su30 as enough for defending India for the time being.

Why will India replace F404 in Tejas when the program is a dead end? India is more focused on MWF & AMCA. That is also why Rafale deal was made so as to use Kaveri in Rafale and to make up for Tejas MK1 being a mistake


DRDO website states the TWR to be 7.8 for 81kN enngine. So, 8100/7.8 = 1036kg.

Yeah and that's why India investing heavily to upgrade to the mk1a standard. Mk1a will be the most modern after the rafales when it is inducted. Its no stop gap but an investment of billions of dollars.

 

[Defcon 1]

How many times should I say that Frqnce has certified Kaveri? The 81kN is updated recently. Earlier it was showing 78kN which was the specifications. The actual is more than expected value.i

If you are so sure about it then share the source of updated thrust figures along with a source of french certification instead of quoting old data from DRDO's website.

We you would had already shared if you had any source. The fact is no french certification and no uprating of engine thrust has happened for kaveri.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Yeah and that's why India investing heavily to upgrade to the mk1a standard. Mk1a will be the most modern after the rafales when it is inducted. Its no stop gap but an investment of billions of dollars.

Yes, this is because the MK1A upgrades will be used in MWF and hence it will be useful in making MWF. It is not investment in design of MK1A but electronics, avionics and other technology which can be reused elsewhere, mainly in MWF & even AMCA. So, investment is not for MK1A

If you are so sure about it then share the source of updated thrust figures along with a source of french certification instead of quoting old data from DRDO's website.

We you would had already shared if you had any source. The fact is no french certification and no uprating of engine thrust has happened for kaveri.

See my reply above where I quote a news article that speaks of certification