Know Your 'Rafale'

[gryphus-scarface]

Yes, that is because the MWF & AMCA will use F414. Only thing is the requirement is different and hence Indian 110kN engine will be fitted in production series.

It seems we have already ordered 99 F414-GE-INS6 engines. So unless we are making 99 MWF prototypes, it is safe to assume the MWF will be powered by the F414. Similarly the AMCA, but at least the AMCA still has time, so there is a chance to develop an indigenous engine.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/10/ge-statement-f414-powered-lcas-mission.html

As for the EPE, it seems the USN has already placed an order for it:
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/u-s...ea-18g-growler-aircraft-new-powerful-engines/

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

It seems we have already ordered 99 F414-GE-INS6 engines. So unless we are making 99 MWF prototypes, it is safe to assume the MWF will be powered by the F414. Similarly the AMCA, but at least the AMCA still has time, so there is a chance to develop an indigenous engine.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/10/ge-statement-f414-powered-lcas-mission.html

As for the EPE, it seems the USN has already placed an order for it:
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/u-s...ea-18g-growler-aircraft-new-powerful-engines/

We are going to make AMCA too along with Naval MWF prototypes. Initial LSP production ill also take place with F414 to stabilise production.

I don't see a reason why India will order 99 F414 in 2010 when no Tejas MK2 was even thought of!! Just look at the date of your article!

 

[gryphus-scarface]

We are going to make AMCA too along with Naval MWF prototypes. Initial LSP production ill also take place with F414 to stabilise production.

I don't see a reason why India will order 99 F414 in 2010 when no Tejas MK2 was even thought of!! Just look at the date of your article!

And if you read the article, it says they were selected for the Mk-2. The mk-2 didn't appear out of thin air. They decided to use the engine and avoid delays that happened with mk1.

Here is GE confirming the same :

https://www.geaviation.com/press-re...ted-power-india-light-combat-aircraft-program

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

And if you read the article, it says they were selected for the Mk-2. The mk-2 didn't appear out of thin air. They decided to use the engine and avoid delays that happened with mk1.

Here is GE confirming the same :

https://www.geaviation.com/press-re...ted-power-india-light-combat-aircraft-program

I read that. My point is that there was no MK2 in 2010. So, without any understanding of MK2, how was engine selected?

 

[gryphus-scarface]

I read that. My point is that there was no MK2 in 2010. So, without any understanding of MK2, how was engine selected?

Mk2 didn't come out of the blue. They decided for it after the LCA. The IAF intended to replace the Mirage 2000 and MiG 27/29 and Jaguar with MWF. Back then it was in early phases of design.

Livefist has a report from 2010 in work starting for LCA mk2 https://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/11/work-officially-set-to-begin-on-lca.html

Generally plane engines are selected early in the process.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Mk2 didn't come out of the blue. They decided for it after the LCA. The IAF intended to replace the Mirage 2000 and MiG 27/29 and Jaguar with MWF. Back then it was in early phases of design.

Livefist has a report from 2010 in work starting for LCA mk2 https://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/11/work-officially-set-to-begin-on-lca.html

Generally plane engines are selected early in the process.

Yes, UPA in 2007 put an end to kaveri saying that we need bigger engine just to sabotage Kaveri and then invented an excuse like MK2. But reality was that ADA was regularly changing the specs of MK2 in 2013-15 time without any proper idea. We do select engine beforehand but we don't buy them outright. So, placing order for 100 engines without even design being completed is foolish. The engines will get rusted if kept in unused for long

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Yes, UPA in 2007 put an end to kaveri saying that we need bigger engine just to sabotage Kaveri and then invented an excuse like MK2. But reality was that ADA was regularly changing the specs of MK2 in 2013-15 time without any proper idea. We do select engine beforehand but we don't buy them outright. So, placing order for 100 engines without even design being completed is foolish. The engines will get rusted if kept in unused for long

This is irrelevant. We bought the engines. And now we will use them, unless we have a better indigenous alternative. There is no news on K9/K10. The only thing is what Saurav Jha said. All sources point to a JV with DRDO and some foreign brand, which means new engine, which means it will take time.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

This is irrelevant. We bought the engines. And now we will use them, unless we have a better indigenous alternative. There is no news on K9/K10. The only thing is what Saurav Jha said. All sources point to a JV with DRDO and some foreign brand, which means new engine, which means it will take time.

New engine will take time. But the JV is unlikely. None gives the technology like that and JV makes no sense when we are already in advanced stage of making engine. K9 already has been in news:
https://defenceupdate.in/breakthrough-for-kaveri-engine-clears-audit-for-aircraft-integration/

The K10 is a new engine and will take 10 years from it being started to be designed. So, likely by 2015-26, it should be ready as it wa sinitially started as engine for AMCA and later decided to be sued for MWF by increasing MToW to 17.5 ton.

So, why talk nonsense of F414 being the engine when it is obvious that imported engines are not preferrable for a plane to be indigenous?

 

[Arsalan123]

Their is no ramjet ,currently available outside west in any a2a missile(Russians are testing,so as we and chinese), PL15 is a missile in class russian k172....

check link bellow....this article was written in 2017.now it's 2019.


https://www.popsci.com/chinas-new-ramjet-engine-triple-range-missiles

 

[White Wolf]

check link bellow....this article was written in 2017.now it's 2019.


https://www.popsci.com/chinas-new-ramjet-engine-triple-range-missiles

How did you infer from this article that china have already developed and applied the ramjet technology in their BVRs??

 

[gryphus-scarface]

New engine will take time. But the JV is unlikely. None gives the technology like that and JV makes no sense when we are already in advanced stage of making engine. K9 already has been in news:
https://defenceupdate.in/breakthrough-for-kaveri-engine-clears-audit-for-aircraft-integration/

The K10 is a new engine and will take 10 years from it being started to be designed. So, likely by 2015-26, it should be ready as it wa sinitially started as engine for AMCA and later decided to be sued for MWF by increasing MToW to 17.5 ton.

So, why talk nonsense of F414 being the engine when it is obvious that imported engines are not preferrable for a plane to be indigenous?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-picks-ge39s-f414-for-tejas-mkii-fighter-348059/

Apparently the plan is to manufacture the F414 in India. Don't know what the progress on that is though.

Apparently tied up with Tata : http://www.newindianexpress.com/cit...ke-jet-engine-parts-in-hyderabad-1727731.html

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-picks-ge39s-f414-for-tejas-mkii-fighter-348059/

Apparently the plan is to manufacture the F414 in India. Don't know what the progress on that is though.

Apparently tied up with Tata : http://www.newindianexpress.com/cit...ke-jet-engine-parts-in-hyderabad-1727731.html

This is part of offsets and to be used in making civilian engine. This is relatively low tech item and nothing to be excited about.

 

[IndianHawk]

I thought AMCA is a twin engine design? If so then even the current F414 (x 2) is enough to power.

MWF is another story though since it's designed to be single engined thus will need increased thrust for F414 (which is already on offer).

On the contrary it is amca which needs 110kn engine in order to supercruise and have super manueverability .
Mwf will be fine with 98kn. F414 of course more power will be welcome.


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[IndianHawk]

Just look at how easily P&W was able to bump up the thrust of F135 by 6-10% at 6% fuel burn reduction in its Growth Option 1.0 engine in 2017 with some swappings in turbine and compressors and changes to engine management software.

Note that Engine Growth Option 1.0 was entirely funded by P&W.

Now P&W is offering Gowth Option 2.0 with improvements in electrical power output, cooling and thrust increase.

GE's F414 enhancement program will not be much different. Note that GE has already offered EPE, so the design changes have already been validated.

I was talking about indegenios 110kn engine which won't come before 2030 even if we sanctions generous funds soon.

GE can make f414 EPE faster but they are waiting for funding. That mostly depends on future of hornets in us navy. But still GE has a business case to prepare f414EPE because it will go into mwf and amca and kf-x of South Korea. That's plenty of business opportunity.

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I was talking about indegenios 110kn engine which won't come before 2030 even if we sanctions generous funds soon.

GE can make f414 EPE faster but they are waiting for funding. That mostly depends on future of hornets in us navy. But still GE has a business case to prepare f414EPE because it will go into mwf and amca and kf-x of South Korea. That's plenty of business opportunity.

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There is no point in getting USA engines if India is interested in making Indian planes. Why does India need such plane at all?

 

[IndianHawk]

There is no point in getting USA engines if India is interested in making Indian planes. Why does India need such plane at all?

You are again confusing two issues. India needs indegenios plane and engine both.
But will not repeat the mistake of lca program by linking them together. Hence mwf and amca will be flying with f414 and in parallel India will develop 110kn engine . As and when indegenios engine will be ready it will go into next batch of amca and mwf. But in case indegenios engine is delayed or doesn't obtain required thrust then India will go for f414 epe for amca while mwf will go with f414 till midlife .

Thus mwf and amca as a program will succeed no Matter what to indegenios engine.
Meanwhile nothing stops development of indegenios engine other then proper funding by govt which will run into billions. Evidence of approval of such funding is lacking as of now.

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

You are again confusing two issues. India needs indegenios plane and engine both.
But will not repeat the mistake of lca program by linking them together. Hence mwf and amca will be flying with f414 and in parallel India will develop 110kn engine . As and when indegenios engine will be ready it will go into next batch of amca and mwf. But in case indegenios engine is delayed or doesn't obtain required thrust then India will go for f414 epe for amca while mwf will go with f414 till midlife .

Thus mwf and amca as a program will succeed no Matter what to indegenios engine.
Meanwhile nothing stops development of indegenios engine other then proper funding by govt which will run into billions. Evidence of approval of such funding is lacking as of now.

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Don't expect strategic project funding to be revealed so openly. If there was no funding, how kaveri got certified by France? Funding for nuclear submarines etc are alse kept secret.

I agree that F414 will be used as stop gap measure but with an aim of indigenisation eventually. So, F414 will be used but that is not the goal.

 

[IndianHawk]

Don't expect strategic project funding to be revealed so openly. If there was no funding, how kaveri got certified by France? Funding for nuclear submarines etc are alse kept secret.

I agree that F414 will be used as stop gap measure but with an aim of indigenisation eventually. So, F414 will be used but that is not the goal.

France played its role according to rafale offset clause. Funding for engine need not be secretive. An engine is not the weapon of mass destruction. Kaveri funding till date is well documented.
Anyway I hope they are working on K10 and it comes ready by 2030.

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[asianobserve]

PAKFA is already up and running. Engine manufacturing is hard but importing an engine makes no sense if the plane has to be called as indigenous. What use does the plane serve if the engine is imported?

I don't see any problem with importing engines. Before a person learns to walk he crawls first. So there's no shame in importing engines in the meantime.

At first it can ask that the engine be assembled in India. Then it can have joint-development while manufturing key engine components. Then afterwards it can manufacture the whole engine.

If India will try to master modern jet engine tech on its own then it will need a long time to learn the process and spend gazillions of money with no assurance of success. In the meantime, the IAF needs new fighters and jet engines...

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I don't see any problem with importing engines. Before a person learns to walk he crawls first. So there's no shame in importing engines in the meantime.

At first it can ask that the engine be assembled in India. Then it can have joint-development while manufturing key engine components. Then afterwards it can manufacture the whole engine.

If India will try to master modern jet engine tech on its own then it will need a long time to learn the process and spend gazillions of money with no assurance of success. In the meantime, the IAF needs new fighters and jet engines...

India manufactures Al31FP. It has recently made Kaveri too. So, where is the problem? Problem can onlly come politically.

France played its role according to rafale offset clause. Funding for engine need not be secretive. An engine is not the weapon of mass destruction. Kaveri funding till date is well documented.
Anyway I hope they are working on K10 and it comes ready by 2030.

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DRDO never reveals anything which has not reached a certain evel of maturity. So, only once the engine dveelopment is solidly on track, will the design be revealed. Till then, DRDO will use its strategic funds to fund the preliminary stages