Know Your 'Rafale'

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Again where is the higher thrust engine??
You can only use what you got . K9 and K10 are more like rumours. What funds have been sanctioned for their development , what is the timeline ? You think we will fight with imaginary engines !! Talk about stupidity.

Mwf will lift as much as mirage and more and that's good enough for a single engine fighter.

None is stopping indigenous development other then iaf obsession with foreign fighters.
Iaf has still not ordered lca mk1a and is salivating over rafale.



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Even Mirage 2000 has 63/95kN engine. F414 has only 59kN dry thrust. So, it will be 10% less than Mirage 2000!

None cares for Mk1A as we are developing a new fighter. The design of MK1 itself was shortsighted and hence the entire plane is rejected. It is only ordered to keep assembly line running. We are having Su30 for the time being made in India and that is enough for defence.

K9 when certified by France is a rumour? Then what is not a rumour? Even AMCA & MWF are rumours by that logic.

If MWF will lift same as LCA MK1, then what was the point of making it? First answer this question instead of simply talking that MWF will use F414 & all compromises are acceptable.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Even Mirage 2000 has 63/95kN engine. F414 has only 59kN dry thrust. So, it will be 10% less than Mirage 2000!

None cares for Mk1A as we are developing a new fighter. The design of MK1 itself was shortsighted and hence the entire plane is rejected. It is only ordered to keep assembly line running. We are having Su30 for the time being made in India and that is enough for defence.

K9 when certified by France is a rumour? Then what is not a rumour? Even AMCA & MWF are rumours by that logic.

If MWF will lift same as LCA MK1, then what was the point of making it? First answer this question instead of simply talking that MWF will use F414 & all compromises are acceptable.

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/...ows-a-pair-becomes-the-medium-weight-fighter/

Has a fairly detailed description of the MWF. Here you will notice that the MTOW of MWF is expected to be around 17.5T, with payload of 6.5T. Compare this to the LCA which has max payload of 4T. Definite improvement. There is also the Gripen E which is very similar to the MWF in terms of engine and wight class. That also has similar payload (6T) and MTOW (16.5T).

As for K9 and K10, we have no solid details anywhere. Please don't cite yourself as a source. Give an actual source. All we know is that they are being developed.

 

[IndianHawk]

Don't bother. He still thinks that we will use Kaveri and Uttam for Rafale.

Guess you are right.

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/...ows-a-pair-becomes-the-medium-weight-fighter/

Has a fairly detailed description of the MWF. Here you will notice that the MTOW of MWF is expected to be around 17.5T, with payload of 6.5T. Compare this to the LCA which has max payload of 4T. Definite improvement. There is also the Gripen E which is very similar to the MWF in terms of engine and wight class. That also has similar payload (6T) and MTOW (16.5T).

As for K9 and K10, we have no solid details anywhere. Please don't cite yourself as a source. Give an actual source. All we know is that they are being developed.

That is why it is said that you must not intervene in a conversation without understanding the context.

MWF can have MToW of 17.5 ton only if it has 70/110kN engine. So, I can't help if you think MWF will magically carry that much weight. F414 on MWF will not be enough as its dry thrust of 59kN is 20% less than the required thrsut. This will definitely compromise the payload. So, F414 is simply ruled out for anything other than prototype flights without payload

 

[gryphus-scarface]

That is why it is said that you must not intervene in a conversation without understanding the context.

MWF can have MToW of 17.5 ton only if it has 70/110kN engine. So, I can't help if you think MWF will magically carry that much weight. F414 on MWF will not be enough as its dry thrust of 59kN is 20% less than the required thrsut. This will definitely compromise the payload. So, F414 is simply ruled out for anything other than prototype flights without payload

You do realise take off wight is a function of wing lift and thrust right? Not just thrust. If the Gripen E doesn't have an issue pulling up a similar weight with smaller wings, why will the MWF? If all we needed was thrust to wight ratio things would be very different.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

You do realise take off wight is a function of wing lift and thrust right? Not just thrust. If the Gripen E doesn't have an issue pulling up a similar weight with smaller wings, why will the MWF? If all we needed was thrust to wight ratio things would be very different.

Gripen E initially said that it will have empty weight of 7.5 ton but now they are saying 8ton. They are snake oil sellers and keep lying. Gripen E will not have the said MToW or it will go slowly like Rafale goes with full MToW!

Smaller or bigger wings alone is not enough. Bigger wings help in taking off quickly but also add drag while maneuvering. So, if wing lift gets excessive, then the plane will not be able to maneuver. As I said, F16 and EF Tyhoon are better standard of measurement than France or Sweden. French and Swedes are snake oil sellers and exaggerate their ability. USA, on the other hand maintains a better standard as it actually has enough resource to back it up. UK, as an ally of USA (USA is essentially UK colony), also has backing of USA and hence does not need to "puff up to look big".

MToW of 17.5ton must require 70/110kN thrust if the plane has to function upt the mark.

 

[Arsalan123]

And what is the official detail that you have the much touted pl15 which with the graphics seem a very heavy missile powered by the rocket motor that shows it will be used against awacs and tankers, will be an idiotic move to compare a Chinese light fighter with the Rafale ,you simply can't guide the missiles with an awacs,rather you can get the coordinates and let you X band radar focus on those coordinates to find the target and hit a missile via a datalink or a friendly fighter with buddy guidance does the job if that option is avialble. In between their are things called ,front end area,density of the trms, max power output ,radar gain and others ,how Chinese radar perform is only known to Chinese and their customers,and last I checked PAF prefered Swedish awacs over Chinese in the operations against India only supports the claim that Chinese radars are untested and severely short of the performance they claim. Pakistan has no rnd ,so they do use the time frame by watching others with a bowl,forget rafale ,pray the Jf17 block 3 even matches the Tejas mk1a which will also be packing an advance radar and ew suite with various other sensors and not just that ,their will be the data fusion which will collect all the information from all available sensors and present a common threat picture thereby reducing pilot work load and multiplying the situational awareness. It still will be third tier aircraft of the Indian airforce.

why are you getting emotional? i didn't say anything about tejas mk1a.i don't compare jf 17 with tejas.our problem is much bigger because you already have su-30 and now very soon rafales.i appreciate your in depth knowledge.block 3 jf-17 will use chinese aesa radar with probably new engine and pl-15 news is not fake.you can guide these long range missiles using swedish awacs and we received 3 more awacs recently.i don't want to talk about begging bowl or our economic situation.things will improve.there is so much corruption and everything takes time.

 

[asianobserve]

If no TOT is given, the the talk of using F414 is retarded. Also, MWF, AMCA will need 70/110kN engine, not 59/98kN engine. Dry thrust has to be at least 20% more for F414. So, hopes of using F414 in anything excpt for prototype will be a pipe dream. Before you talk of EPE version, there is no EPE. EPE is like fusion reactor and unlikely to be made any time soon Ceramic blades is extremely complex and tend to shatter quickly. So, F414 is useless for Indian planes.

Aero India 2019: ADA unveils Tejas AF Mk 2 Medium Weight Fighter

xxx
The maximum weight of the aircraft is 17.5 tonnes, which enhances its weapons carrying capacity to up to 6.5 tonnes, and it is equipped with a higher thrust General Electric GE-F414-INS6 engine that features a Full Authority Digital Electronics Control (FADEC) system. Additional features of the Tejas AF Mk 2 MWF include an infrared search-and-track (IRST) sensor, a missile approach warning system (MAWS), and an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.
xxx
https://www.janes.com/article/86671/aero-india-2019-ada-unveils-tejas-af-mk-2-medium-weight-fighter

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Aero India 2019: ADA unveils Tejas AF Mk 2 Medium Weight Fighter

xxx
The maximum weight of the aircraft is 17.5 tonnes, which enhances its weapons carrying capacity to up to 6.5 tonnes, and it is equipped with a higher thrust General Electric GE-F414-INS6 engine that features a Full Authority Digital Electronics Control (FADEC) system. Additional features of the Tejas AF Mk 2 MWF include an infrared search-and-track (IRST) sensor, a missile approach warning system (MAWS), and an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.
xxx
https://www.janes.com/article/86671/aero-india-2019-ada-unveils-tejas-af-mk-2-medium-weight-fighter

I have said this several times. DRDO itself has stated that the MWF will use 110kN engine. That is the speficiation itself. The F414 is for current testing and prototyping only. In prototype, we don't carry heavy loads and hence F414 will be enough. So, we will not wait for new engine but directly start MWF project and develop engine in parallel. It is like Rafale which used F404 engine initially

 

[gryphus-scarface]

I have said this several times. DRDO itself has stated that the MWF will use 110kN engine. That is the speficiation itself. The F414 is for current testing and prototyping only. In prototype, we don't carry heavy loads and hence F414 will be enough. So, we will not wait for new engine but directly start MWF project and develop engine in parallel. It is like Rafale which used F404 engine initially

Yes. And now DRDO is saying that without any doubt they will use the F414 for production jets. Please provide any source that states otherwise.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Yes. And now DRDO is saying that without any doubt they will use the F414 for production jets. Please provide any source that states otherwise.

Give me source that DRDO will use F414 for production jets. We can talk after that

 

[asianobserve]

I have said this several times. DRDO itself has stated that the MWF will use 110kN engine. That is the speficiation itself. The F414 is for current testing and prototyping only. In prototype, we don't carry heavy loads and hence F414 will be enough. So, we will not wait for new engine but directly start MWF project and develop engine in parallel. It is like Rafale which used F404 engine initially

The article does not say that. What is clear is that MWF will use higher thrust F414, which is understood as its production version.

 

[asianobserve]

According to GE Aviation, F414 Enhanced Engine incorporates additional technical advancements that can be retrofitted into the existing engines like F414 engines at much lower ownership cost. GE till now has supplied ADA with Eight F414-INS6 engines which generate 98kN Class of Wet Thrust but F414 Enhanced Engine can generate 116 kN Class of Wet Thrust with 1% improved fuel burn over F414-INS6 engines with negligible weight gain.

F414-INS6 engines and F414 Enhanced Engine dimensions will remain the same and no airframe changes will be required was the assurance given by the GE officials to ADA. GE promised that transaction will be smooth just like in LCA-Tejas Mk1 Program when ADA moved from an Initial lot of 8 F404-F2J3 engines which were used in LCA TD and Prototypes to F404-GE-IN20 engines with 5kn of extra wet thrust now used in Production variants. GE in 2010 had won a contract to supply 99 F414-INS6 engines with an option of 40 more as follow on order to power Mk-2 LCA-Tejas which now has become MWF with increased Maximum take-off weight of 17.5 tonnes over which GE officials feel that additional 18kn Wet Thrust will come in handy on MWF after incremental growth in its payload and weapons capabilities after redesign.


idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/general-electric-offers-india-a-new-engine-for-mwf-and-amca-fighter-program/ .

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Give me source that DRDO will use F414 for production jets. We can talk after that

That's not how the burden of proof works. The general consensus here is that the F414 will be used on the MWF. When you make the claim that the Kaveri or any other engine will be used, the burden of proof rests on you. You need to provide a source for your claim.

Here's the inference for my claim though: ADA has said that the MWF that are being developed in the following way : 2 Pre production prototypes, and 2 IOC jets. Since the pre production jets are using the same old F414, its not a stretch to assume the same goes into the production jet.

 

[Tang]

Pakistan understands current situation and iaf already said that they are waiting for rafale.iaf also knows that paf will not sit silent and will do something to counter meteor missile.we have pl-15 and we might also use other missiles.jf-17 block 3 will surely have aesa and in this modern warfare age,most missiles use mid course update and both countries have awacs so it's very easy to guide very very long range bvr towards it's target.india will buy more rafales soon.they will probably buy 100 to 120 jets but pakistan will use this time frame as an opportunity.

Hello sir,
In all out war paf can't stand for 2 hours and I see this situation for atleast 20 years or more.
It's better pakistan stop poking India.
Thanks

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

According to GE Aviation, F414 Enhanced Engine incorporates additional technical advancements that can be retrofitted into the existing engines like F414 engines at much lower ownership cost. GE till now has supplied ADA with Eight F414-INS6 engines which generate 98kN Class of Wet Thrust but F414 Enhanced Engine can generate 116 kN Class of Wet Thrust with 1% improved fuel burn over F414-INS6 engines with negligible weight gain.

F414-INS6 engines and F414 Enhanced Engine dimensions will remain the same and no airframe changes will be required was the assurance given by the GE officials to ADA. GE promised that transaction will be smooth just like in LCA-Tejas Mk1 Program when ADA moved from an Initial lot of 8 F404-F2J3 engines which were used in LCA TD and Prototypes to F404-GE-IN20 engines with 5kn of extra wet thrust now used in Production variants. GE in 2010 had won a contract to supply 99 F414-INS6 engines with an option of 40 more as follow on order to power Mk-2 LCA-Tejas which now has become MWF with increased Maximum take-off weight of 17.5 tonnes over which GE officials feel that additional 18kn Wet Thrust will come in handy on MWF after incremental growth in its payload and weapons capabilities after redesign.


idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/general-electric-offers-india-a-new-engine-for-mwf-and-amca-fighter-program/ .

That i lik fusion reactor dream. The enhanced engine uses ceramic blades which does not yet exist anywhere. It has been tried and has shows 100% failure rate.

That's not how the burden of proof works. The general consensus here is that the F414 will be used on the MWF. When you make the claim that the Kaveri or any other engine will be used, the burden of proof rests on you. You need to provide a source for your claim.

Here's the inference for my claim though: ADA has said that the MWF that are being developed in the following way : 2 Pre production prototypes, and 2 IOC jets. Since the pre production jets are using the same old F414, its not a stretch to assume the same goes into the production jet.

Here the 110kN engine source:

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/n...build-bigger-jets-says-drdo-chief/733937.html

Saurav Jha also stated that this engine will be officially launched shortly.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Here the 110kN engine source:

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/n...build-bigger-jets-says-drdo-chief/733937.html

Saurav Jha also stated that this engine will be officially launched shortly.

From your own source :
The Tejas weighs 6.5 tonnes and the MWF is the next class and targeted to weigh around 17 tonnes. The Aeronautical Development Agency and the Indian Air Force (IAF) have designed it as per the requirement of the IAF. It will have an engine of 98 Kilonewton (Kn) thrust.

Also :

Also, India is looking to take a technological leap. The DRDO is now in talks with an international partner to make a jet engine of 110 Kn power. So far, no such engine exists anywhere in the world. “We are open to working on this and are in talks with partners for joint development,” said Dr Reddy, adding this engine could be used on future jets.

It seems like any such engine will be a joint venture, rather than a purely indigenous thing.

98Kn = GE F414.

Further more :

On being asked about the Kaveri engine, Dr Reddy said it would be used on UAVs. “It is not being shelved.” Notably, Kaveri’s thrust is about 75 Kn and 90 Kn is desired to power a fighter jet.

i.e. dry thrust is more but wet thrust is less than F414.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

That i lik fusion reactor dream. The enhanced engine uses ceramic blades which does not yet exist anywhere. It has been tried and has shows 100% failure rate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFM_International_LEAP

It seems that CMCs will be slowly used in jet engines in increasing amounts. You seem to think that people will make blades out of ceramic itself. On the contrary, it will be used to make a composite of ceramic and metals like nickel. There are no engines today, but its not too far in the future before the first military jet engines come out.

 

[asianobserve]

That i lik fusion reactor dream. The enhanced engine uses ceramic blades which does not yet exist anywhere. It has been tried and has shows 100% failure rate.


Here the 110kN engine source:

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/n...build-bigger-jets-says-drdo-chief/733937.html

Saurav Jha also stated that this engine will be officially launched shortly.

The F414 Enhanced Engine with 116kn thrust is already contracted by the USN. It's a reality.

https://therepublicword.blogspot.com/2018/12/us-navy-orders-f414-ge-400-engines-for.html?m=1

https://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/f414-engine

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

From your own source :
The Tejas weighs 6.5 tonnes and the MWF is the next class and targeted to weigh around 17 tonnes. The Aeronautical Development Agency and the Indian Air Force (IAF) have designed it as per the requirement of the IAF. It will have an engine of 98 Kilonewton (Kn) thrust.

Also :

Also, India is looking to take a technological leap. The DRDO is now in talks with an international partner to make a jet engine of 110 Kn power. So far, no such engine exists anywhere in the world. “We are open to working on this and are in talks with partners for joint development,” said Dr Reddy, adding this engine could be used on future jets.

It seems like any such engine will be a joint venture, rather than a purely indigenous thing.

98Kn = GE F414.

Further more :

On being asked about the Kaveri engine, Dr Reddy said it would be used on UAVs. “It is not being shelved.” Notably, Kaveri’s thrust is about 75 Kn and 90 Kn is desired to power a fighter jet.

i.e. dry thrust is more but wet thrust is less than F414.

Yeah, that 98kN engine is for initial trials. I have said this too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFM_International_LEAP

It seems that CMCs will be slowly used in jet engines in increasing amounts. You seem to think that people will make blades out of ceramic itself. On the contrary, it will be used to make a composite of ceramic and metals like nickel. There are no engines today, but its not too far in the future before the first military jet engines come out.

It is too far in the future as work has been going for some time. It is not the engine but the CMC itself was never made till now. Once the CMC is made, then engine making must start which will take 8-10 years from the start date

The F414 Enhanced Engine with 116kn thrust is already contracted by the USN. It's a reality.

https://therepublicword.blogspot.com/2018/12/us-navy-orders-f414-ge-400-engines-for.html?m=1

https://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/f414-engine

USA may be working on it but making ceramic blades is a difficult thing. It has not even achieved preliminary success anywhere. Till that happens, there will be no EPE.

F414-GE-400 according to GE link you gave says it is 98kN.