Know Your 'Rafale'

[Kchontha]

Is item 30 another option for power planting amca?

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[IndianHawk]

Is item 30 another option for power planting amca?

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No item 30 is much bigger engine and can only go in much bigger airframes such as pakfa maybe su30.

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[Steven Rogers]

check link bellow....this article was written in 2017.now it's 2019.


https://www.popsci.com/chinas-new-ramjet-engine-triple-range-missiles

Even in 2023,it highly unlikely that any of the below missiles except the rocket motor varaint of pl12(which is already operational)will be operational. The pl12d some also called pl21 which has the proposed ramjet(which i highlighted in the previous comment viz chinese developement)the ramjet itself was tested in 2017 for the first time so any chances of these missiles in plaaf is no where soon let alone paf ,for the pl15 part,chinese are developing that for over a decade ,and they only have resulted a heavier missile in the class of k172.

 

[Arsalan123]

Even in 2023,it highly unlikely that any of the below missiles except the rocket motor varaint of pl12(which is already operational)will be operational. The pl12d some also called pl21 which has the proposed ramjet(which i highlighted in the previous comment viz chinese developement)the ramjet itself was tested in 2017 for the first time so any chances of these missiles in plaaf is no where soon let alone paf ,for the pl15 part,chinese are developing that for over a decade ,and they only have resulted a heavier missile in the class of k172.

Chinese are working very hard and they already have pl-15.you said it's heavy for block 3. I don't know but we have this news circulating like fire.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Chinese are working very hard and they already have pl-15.you said it's heavy for block 3. I don't know but we have this news circulating like fire.

I didnt say it is heavy for a light aircraft ,but it is a missile meant for targeting force multipliers rather than fighter aircraft(given its size), believe it when official pakistani sources quote such. Ive seen the morphed the photo, the mistake which was made by the editor was by putting that missile in the middle wing pylon of the aircraft

 

[BON PLAN]

For last order in 2016 India paid 105 million flyaway per unit. So this 76 million or 90 million is absurd for Indian price.


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You have to add spare parts, support (Indian exigences are high).
And the offset of X% JUST increase the price by X%. In the Indian case it 30% more to a "dry" price.

 

[BON PLAN]

If that is the case American will start offering f18 production line to India wholesale for 57 navy + 114 mmrca.

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Never.
uncle Trump will never agree.

 

[BON PLAN]

while an airshow showed how difficult it was for rafale to move in heavily loaded situation!

LOL.
Never you have seen in air show a Rafale taking off.
You just say complete Bill Shit.

 

[BON PLAN]

Even Eurofighter has MToW 23ton despite having 90kN engine vs Rafale's 75kN!

Fortunately MTOW is not only a question of engine power, but also of wings, canards, flaps, FBW, aerodynamic skill and refinements.
Another BS my dear.

 

[BON PLAN]

As I said, F16 and EF Tyhoon are better standard of measurement than France or Sweden. French and Swedes are snake oil sellers and exaggerate their ability.

Better and better....
Full BS.

 

[neeraj_]

Chinese are working very hard and they already have pl-15.you said it's heavy for block 3. I don't know but we have this news circulating like fire.

We have seen your UN ambassador Maleeha lodhi spreading a fake pic with origin in Palestine's photoshop inventory spreading like fire. That is how much credible porks are.

A nation which use surname like Lodhi Bajwa Malik chaudhary Rana rajput and claim themselves to be Arab . Yeah I get it like fire.

 

[IndianHawk]

You have to add spare parts, support (Indian exigences are high).
And the offset of X% JUST increase the price by X%. In the Indian case it 30% more to a "dry" price.

The barebone aircraft was 105 million if I remember correctly. Everything else had an additional price tag.

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[IndianHawk]

Never.
uncle Trump will never agree.

Boing being in competition means they will manufacture hornet in India. If they won't shift existing line then they'll have to build new one which will raise the cost of the Hornets but they will still be cheaper then rafale. And they'll have common engine with mwf , nlca mk2 and amca .
That will result in further savings as single engine plant can serve 4 types of planes .

Personally I will want iaf to just go for 36-72 more rafale and be done with imports forever.
Put rest of the money in mwf , amca and sfdr development.
Navy can also make do with mig29k until nlca mk2 comes along as it should be ready before mwf.

Defense budget has not grown accordingly to support acquisition of 114+ 57 birds!

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Boing being in competition means they will manufacture hornet in India. If they won't shift existing line then they'll have to build new one which will raise the cost of the Hornets but they will still be cheaper then rafale. And they'll have common engine with mwf , nlca mk2 and amca .
That will result in further savings as single engine plant can serve 4 types of planes .

Personally I will want iaf to just go for 36-72 more rafale and be done with imports forever.
Put rest of the money in mwf , amca and sfdr development.
Navy can also make do with mig29k until nlca mk2 comes along as it should be ready before mwf.

Defense budget has not grown accordingly to support acquisition of 114+ 57 birds!

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What did I say aout common engine? India is not going to have F414 for eternity. So, common engine will be for 5 years only. After that India will phase out F414 and get Indian engines. So, why insist on common engine?

India wants Indian planes, not any random plane around. Unless anyone agrees to give technology transfer, then India is not going to import any plane

 

[IndianHawk]

What did I say aout common engine? India is not going to have F414 for eternity. So, common engine will be for 5 years only. After that India will phase out F414 and get Indian engines. So, why insist on common engine?

India wants Indian planes, not any random plane around. Unless anyone agrees to give technology transfer, then India is not going to import any plane

That's not how it works. Even if you have desi engine ready by 2030 doesn't mean you just start replacing all produced mwf (24 a year so 72 by 2030-31) and mwf and nlca.

Plane won't change their engine unless they go for major overhaul ( after 10-12 years) or for mid life upgrade ( 20 years plus) . Change of engine for a 4-5 year old bird is stupid . It hampers operational strength and waste engine life.

Also f414 has a long life and is bloody costly because of that. We can't just throw it way because we have a new engine ready.

All f414 installed in plane will server their complete life while desi engine will go to new batches.

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

That's not how it works. Even if you have desi engine ready by 2030 doesn't mean you just start replacing all produced mwf (24 a year so 72 by 2030-31) and mwf and nlca.

Plane won't change their engine unless they go for major overhaul ( after 10-12 years) or for mid life upgrade ( 20 years plus) . Change of engine for a 4-5 year old bird is stupid . It hampers operational strength and waste engine life.

Also f414 has a long life and is bloody costly because of that. We can't just throw it way because we have a new engine ready.

All f414 installed in plane will server their complete life while desi engine will go to new batches.

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The F414 will have 2000 hours of life. This is about 10 years. Planes have a life of 35 years. Why should India get the F414 for 35 years? F414 is costly but Indian engine will be cheap. SO, how will replacing F414 be costly?

What will you do with F18 once it becomes 10 year old? Who will give engine and spares? Should India buy F18 only to be thrown after 10 years saying that Indian planes are better and cheaper? We are not buying planes to be used for 10 years. We can't change the engine of F18 as it requires USA to redesign it which they may charge too high a price

 

[IndianHawk]

The F414 will have 2000 hours of life. This is about 10 years. Planes have a life of 35 years. Why should India get the F414 for 35 years? F414 is costly but Indian engine will be cheap. SO, how will replacing F414 be costly?

What will you do with F18 once it becomes 10 year old? Who will give engine and spares? Should India buy F18 only to be thrown after 10 years saying that Indian planes are better and cheaper? We are not buying planes to be used for 10 years. We can't change the engine of F18 as it requires USA to redesign it which they may charge too high a price

That's just hot section life. It's a modular design engine unlike Russian engine. Cold section parts have a life of 4000hrs. So after 2000 hr only hit parts need to be changed which is much more economical then changing the entire engine.

These hot parts can also be reserved en mass.

About f18 if we buy it it will serve full life with us engines but then so will rafale or any other imported fighter. Solution to that problem is not to import at all.

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

hat's just hot section life. It's a modular design engine unlike Russian engine. Cold section parts have a life of 4000hrs. So after 2000 hr only hit parts need to be changed which is much more economical then changing the entire engine.

Actually, 80% of engine cost in in hot section. So, changing it is same as changing entire engine with a discount. No, we can't get hot parts enmasse as USA will not give it and we can't afford it. F414 costs $6 million. Hot section may cost 4.5-5 million. 2 engine will mean 9-10 million! Too expensive just for engine overhaul.

About f18 if we buy it it will serve full life with us engines but then so will rafale or any other imported fighter. Solution to that problem is not to import at all.

That is why Rafales will use Kaveri engines. India did not simply import Rafale. The 50% offset in Rafale deal is about modifying Rafae to fit Kaveri engine and UTTAM radar. Since Kaveri is 81kN engine (similar to 75kN M88), it is perfectly suitable for Rafale

We will not be importing Rafale in traditional sense. We will be using rafale made in India itself. So, unlike F18, we are going to have indigenous replacements

 

[gryphus-scarface]

That is why Rafales will use Kaveri engines. India did not simply import Rafale. The 50% offset in Rafale deal is about modifying Rafae to fit Kaveri engine and UTTAM radar. Since Kaveri is 81kN engine (similar to 75kN M88), it is perfectly suitable for Rafale

We will not be importing Rafale in traditional sense. We will be using rafale made in India itself. So, unlike F18, we are going to have indigenous replacements

You're back with this nonsense. No Rafale will not fly with Kaveri. Why is that hard to comprehend? Kaveri is a very different engine from the M88 that the Rafale uses. It has lower dry thrust, it is wider, weighs almost 50% more, and generates more wet thrust. So we give up supercruise, lose the shaping and agility, and in return we get some sort of Franken-Rafale. Yeah, not happening.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

You're back with this nonsense. No Rafale will not fly with Kaveri. Why is that hard to comprehend? Kaveri is a very different engine from the M88 that the Rafale uses. It has lower dry thrust, it is wider, weighs almost 50% more, and generates more wet thrust. So we give up supercruise, lose the shaping and agility, and in return we get some sort of Franken-Rafale. Yeah, not happening.

Kaveri has 52-54kN dry thrust while M88 has 50kN. averi weighs 1000kg while M88 weighs 900kg. It is definitely not having lesser dry thrust or 50% more weight than M88. It is wider but that can be adjusted by adjusting the rear of the plane to fit a slightly bigger engine. As I said, Rafale has used F404 engine during its early years and hence integrating Kaveri will be almost identical to F404 integration.