Know Your 'Rafale'

[gryphus-scarface]

Yeah, that 98kN engine is for initial trials. I have said this too.

No your source says that a 98Kn engine will be used, as per IAF requirements. That is the direct quote. At no point does it state that that the MWF is using 98Kn engine for testing only. You made this inference on your own.

 

[IndianHawk]

No combat mission ever relies on mtow payload.
99% mission are way under mtow payload.

The only case mtow load is used when plane has to carry 3+ external tank because combat field is far away in that case plane flies with tons of external fuel + ordinance. But external fuel is burned and tanks are dropped before meeting the enemy and hence plane enters combat much under mtow.

Going only by thrust to weight ratio mig29 becomes superior to most birds out there which is simply not true.

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

No your source says that a 98Kn engine will be used, as per IAF requirements. That is the direct quote. At no point does it state that that the MWF is using 98Kn engine for testing only. You made this inference on your own.

That is not the direct quote, that is the journalist's word.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

That is not the direct quote, that is the journalist's word.

Then please give a source that actually states the MWF *will* use the Kaveri or any other indigenous engine.

 

[Steven Rogers]

why are you getting emotional? i didn't say anything about tejas mk1a.i don't compare jf 17 with tejas.our problem is much bigger because you already have su-30 and now very soon rafales.i appreciate your in depth knowledge.block 3 jf-17 will use chinese aesa radar with probably new engine and pl-15 news is not fake.you can guide these long range missiles using swedish awacs and we received 3 more awacs recently.i don't want to talk about begging bowl or our economic situation.things will improve.there is so much corruption and everything takes time.

I explained why PL15 won't be matching Meteor so not a proper power balance with that regard. AESA radar is as good as it's cooling and power supply,last I heard the AESAs which are much touted are either an air-cooled one or the klj7a whose development hasn't been overed yet. You can only get the situational awareness with those awacs,they don't have the accuracy to guide the missile against a fighter,rather they will provide the situational updates and the main radar or the friendly fighter will acquire target and update the missile. A single AESA will cost a 1 lakh dollars,a single GaA trm module costs around 1500$,sensors around those are expensive unless you water down your requirement.

 

[asianobserve]

Yeah, that 98kN engine is for initial trials. I have said this too.

It is too far in the future as work has been going for some time. It is not the engine but the CMC itself was never made till now. Once the CMC is made, then engine making must start which will take 8-10 years from the start date



USA may be working on it but making ceramic blades is a difficult thing. It has not even achieved preliminary success anywhere. Till that happens, there will be no EPE.

F414-GE-400 according to GE link you gave says it is 98kN.

F414 Enhanced Engine has 116kn thrust. Look up for the GE pdf on that engine.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Then please give a source that actually states the MWF *will* use the Kaveri or any other indigenous engine.

https://idrw.org/scoop-mwf-and-amca-might-have-a-common-engine/

F414 Enhanced Engine has 116kn thrust. Look up for the GE pdf on that engine.

Can you explain how dimension of F414 EPE is same as other F414 but TWR is same despite higher thrust? Either TWR also must change or there is an anomaly.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

https://idrw.org/scoop-mwf-and-amca-might-have-a-common-engine/

Thank you. This would have been easier if you had done this earlier.

Can you explain how dimension of F414 EPE is same as other F414 but TWR is same despite higher thrust? Either TWR also must change or there is an anomaly.

As far as I can tell, the EPE seems some time away. CMC will definitely reduce weight, but thrust within the same dimensions is hard. We know very little about the EPE at this time, other than it is under development.

 

[IndianHawk]

https://idrw.org/scoop-mwf-and-amca-might-have-a-common-engine/


Can you explain how dimension of F414 EPE is same as other F414 but TWR is same despite higher thrust? Either TWR also must change or there is an anomaly.

All that article says that they are "discussing the possibility" . And that such an engine will be developed in foreign institution. What is indegenios in that. Also engine will take 5+ years to certify.
It's still in rumours stage. 110kn+ engine won't come before 2030.

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[IndianHawk]

Holding up mwf and amca development because of lack of a desi 110kn engine will be same mistake we made with lca and Kaveri link.


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[Arsalan123]

I explained why PL15 won't be matching Meteor so not a proper power balance with that regard. AESA radar is as good as it's cooling and power supply,last I heard the AESAs which are much touted are either an air-cooled one or the klj7a whose development hasn't been overed yet. You can only get the situational awareness with those awacs,they don't have the accuracy to guide the missile against a fighter,rather they will provide the situational updates and the main radar or the friendly fighter will acquire target and update the missile. A single AESA will cost a 1 lakh dollars,a single GaA trm module costs around 1500$,sensors around those are expensive unless you water down your requirement.

let us suppose that pl-15 is not available.we can still use pl-12d which is ramjet technology and very much like meteor.there are so many options but in reality,i heard that we will use pl-15 in block 3.

 

[asianobserve]

Thank you. This would have been easier if you had done this earlier.


As far as I can tell, the EPE seems some time away. CMC will definitely reduce weight, but thrust within the same dimensions is hard. We know very little about the EPE at this time, other than it is under development.

All that article says that they are "discussing the possibility" . And that such an engine will be developed in foreign institution. What is indegenios in that. Also engine will take 5+ years to certify.
It's still in rumours stage. 110kn+ engine won't come before 2030.

Just look at how easily P&W was able to bump up the thrust of F135 by 6-10% at 6% fuel burn reduction in its Growth Option 1.0 engine in 2017 with some swappings in turbine and compressors and changes to engine management software.

Note that Engine Growth Option 1.0 was entirely funded by P&W.

Now P&W is offering Gowth Option 2.0 with improvements in electrical power output, cooling and thrust increase.

GE's F414 enhancement program will not be much different. Note that GE has already offered EPE, so the design changes have already been validated.

 

[asianobserve]

https://idrw.org/scoop-mwf-and-amca-might-have-a-common-engine/


Can you explain how dimension of F414 EPE is same as other F414 but TWR is same despite higher thrust? Either TWR also must change or there is an anomaly.

EPE program will only swap sections of the engine fan and compressor with newer improved designs plus software updates. So the engine dimension will remain the same. That's why GE has offered EPE for retrofit to existing F414 engines installed in current SHs.

Note as I mentioned that this is similar to improvements tested by P&W in its F135 engine which resulted in up to 10% increase in thrust with 6% reduction in fuel burn in its company funded Growth Option 1.0 demo engine in 2017. P&W also said that Growth Option 1.0 can be retrofitted to existing F135 engines.

 

[asianobserve]

Holding up mwf and amca development because of lack of a desi 110kn engine will be same mistake we made with lca and Kaveri link.


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I thought AMCA is a twin engine design? If so then even the current F414 (x 2) is enough to power.

MWF is another story though since it's designed to be single engined thus will need increased thrust for F414 (which is already on offer).

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

EPE program will only swap sections of the engine fan and compressor with newer improved designs plus software updates. So the engine dimension will remain the same. That's why GE has offered EPE for retrofit to existing F414 engines installed in current SHs.

Note as I mentioned that this is similar to improvements tested by P&W in its F135 engine which resulted in up to 10% increase in thrust with 6% reduction in fuel burn in its company funded Growth Option 1.0 demo engine in 2017. P&W also said that Growth Option 1.0 can be retrofitted to existing F135 engines.

The TWR wil increase drastically if that happens. TWR means that thrust to weight ratio. So, there is an anomaly

Holding up mwf and amca development because of lack of a desi 110kn engine will be same mistake we made with lca and Kaveri link.


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Yeah, that is why F414 will be used. But you must not consider it as final engine. It is only for time being. Both AMCA & MWF will use F414 for initial stages. Just like Rafale used F404 for initial development, Indian fighters will also use USA engines initially

 

[Steven Rogers]

let us suppose that pl-15 is not available.we can still use pl-12d which is ramjet technology and very much like meteor.there are so many options but in reality,i heard that we will use pl-15 in block 3.

Their is no ramjet ,currently available outside west in any a2a missile(Russians are testing,so as we and chinese), PL15 is a missile in class russian k172....

 

[asianobserve]

The TWR wil increase drastically if that happens. TWR means that thrust to weight ratio. So, there is an anomaly


Yeah, that is why F414 will be used. But you must not consider it as final engine. It is only for time being. Both AMCA & MWF will use F414 for initial stages. Just like Rafale used F404 for initial development, Indian fighters will also use USA engines initially

I do not see any alternative to F414- INS6 and F414EPE. And all sources point to F414 being used for these projects.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I do not see any alternative to F414- INS6 and F414EPE. And all sources point to F414 being used for these projects.

Yes, that is because the MWF & AMCA will use F414. Only thing is the requirement is different and hence Indian 110kN engine will be fitted in production series.

 

[asianobserve]

Yes, that is because the MWF & AMCA will use F414. Only thing is the requirement is different and hence Indian 110kN engine will be fitted in production series.

Enhanced F414 will have 116kn thrust. So there's no need for another engine. But if India can deliver a reliable 110thrust class engine then that would be the best!

But in aircraft production the engine is always the hardest part. Just look at PAKFA.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Enhanced F414 will have 116kn thrust. So there's no need for another engine. But if India can deliver a reliable 110thrust class engine then that would be the best!

But in aircraft production the engine is always the hardest part. Just look at PAKFA.

PAKFA is already up and running. Engine manufacturing is hard but importing an engine makes no sense if the plane has to be called as indigenous. What use does the plane serve if the engine is imported?