Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

Mwf and amca and lca mk1/mk1a will anyway use ge engine. A manufacturing plant in India with spare in reserve can negate sanctions for few years .
Btw India is world's third largest economy already at ppp at nominal it will reach there by 2025 sanctions on India will ripple through world economy bringing recession.
Not to mention US will lose a major customer of weapons as well as an ally against China. Too much to loose.
US reaction to asat test is the preview of things to come.

IAF has a bad habit of not ordering enough spares after the initial maintenance contract runs out. Using MKI as an example, serviceability fell to 37% on a 24hr hold. That was with good relations with the supplier and during peace time. If it was war time under sanctions you would have weeks of use before you had to start cannabalising from other aircraft.

US politics doesn't care about customers, they care about accomplishing their foreign policy. They even throw NATO members under the bus, ie Turkey. If they will do it to them they would easily do it to India.

 

[Tang]

This fighter jet is a big problem for pakistan but we are working to counter meteor.we know this is the best missile just because of ramjet technology.also rafale is a very dangerous fighter jet.

Sorry you can't do anything about Su30 also,
Pak cannot even operate double engine fighters due to budget constraint forget about doing anything about Rafale or meteor

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Not ip of f414 just tot for manufacturing and maintenance in India . GE is already building a plant .

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Mwf and amca and lca mk1/mk1a will anyway use ge engine. A manufacturing plant in India with spare in reserve can negate sanctions for few years .
Btw India is world's third largest economy already at ppp at nominal it will reach there by 2025 sanctions on India will ripple through world economy bringing recession.
Not to mention US will lose a major customer of weapons as well as an ally against China. Too much to loose.
US reaction to asat test is the preview of things to come.

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If no TOT is given, the the talk of using F414 is retarded. Also, MWF, AMCA will need 70/110kN engine, not 59/98kN engine. Dry thrust has to be at least 20% more for F414. So, hopes of using F414 in anything excpt for prototype will be a pipe dream. Before you talk of EPE version, there is no EPE. EPE is like fusion reactor and unlikely to be made any time soon Ceramic blades is extremely complex and tend to shatter quickly. So, F414 is useless for Indian planes.

 

[IndianHawk]

IAF has a bad habit of not ordering enough spares after the initial maintenance contract runs out. Using MKI as an example, serviceability fell to 37% on a 24hr hold. That was with good relations with the supplier and during peace time. If it was war time under sanctions you would have weeks of use before you had to start cannabalising from other aircraft.

US politics doesn't care about customers, they care about accomplishing their foreign policy. They even throw NATO members under the bus, ie Turkey. If they will do it to them they would easily do it to India.

That is why iaf now insists on performance based logistics. Isn't that why rafale contract is so costly.
Regarding foreign policy of USA . Adverse relationship with India will be a foreign policy failure. Turkey is a small bucket India is 9th largest trading partner of USA and climbing up .

I get you point. I want India to go for indigenous equipment. But USA wants India in its ecosystem and will compromise for that.


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[IndianHawk]

If no TOT is given, the the talk of using F414 is retarded. Also, MWF, AMCA will need 70/110kN engine, not 59/98kN engine. Dry thrust has to be at least 20% more for F414. So, hopes of using F414 in anything excpt for prototype will be a pipe dream. Before you talk of EPE version, there is no EPE. EPE is like fusion reactor and unlikely to be made any time soon Ceramic blades is extremely complex and tend to shatter quickly. So, F414 is useless for Indian planes.

F414 is going in mwf and amca initial batches.
If EPE is not happening then where is this 110kn class engine . Don't quote K9 or K10 unless you can show evidence of solid progress on these programs.

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

F414 is going in mwf and amca initial batches.
If EPE is not happening then where is this 110kn class engine .

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Will the initial batches of MWF & AMCA run slowly and carry less payload because engine is weak? How can anything other than trials be made using an engine which is 20% weaker in dry thrust? 20% weak means that the payload of MWF will become 3tons from 6.5 tons or the plane will move slowly.

There is no EPE as making ceramic blades is proving to be impossible.

Don't quote K9 or K10 unless you can show evidence of solid progress on these programs.

Hmm,,, the K9 has already been certified by France and that is a solid evidence. But it is Kaveri with 81kN thrust. So, a K10 will be developed and has been under development since 2015-16. Since K9 has been a success so far, making K10 is likely to be much simpler and expected in 10 years

MWF is also under development. It makes no sense to ask for solid progress on things under development

 

[IndianHawk]

Will the initial batches of MWF & AMCA run slowly and carry less payload because engine is weak? How can anything other than trials be made using an engine which is 20% weaker in dry thrust? 20% weak means that the payload of MWF will become 3tons from 6.5 tons or the plane will move slowly.

There is no EPE as making ceramic blades is proving to be impossible.


Hmm,,, the K9 has already been certified by France and that is a solid evidence. But it is Kaveri with 81kN thrust. So, a K10 will be developed and has been under development since 2015-16. Since K9 has been a success so far, making K10 is likely to be much simpler and expected in 10 years

MWF is also under development. It makes no sense to ask for solid progress on things under development

Mwf first flight is scheduled for 2022-23 thereafter 5 years of trials and induction by 2028.

Nobody has seen a K10 how will it be ready by 2028 that too with 110kn thrust.

Mwf mtow is barely more then mirage 2000
Mirage payload was 6300kg with 95 kn engine.
So how on earth mwf with 6500kg payload is underpowered with 98Kn engine.

Also mwf airframe will consist of composite making it lighter than mirage2000.

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[IndianHawk]

Whenever K9 0r 10 comes they will simply start integration of new engine on new batches and retrofit the old planes with during mid life upgrade or overhaul program.
That is the pragmatic way.

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Mwf first flight is scheduled for 2022-23 thereafter 5 years of trials and induction by 2028.

Nobody has seen a K10 how will it be ready by 2028 that too with 110kn thrust.

Mwf mtow is barely more then mirage 2000
Mirage payload was 6300kg with 95 kn engine.
So how on earth mwf with 6500kg payload is underpowered with 98Kn engine.

Also mwf airframe will consist of composite making it lighter than mirage2000.

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Mirage MToW was exaggerated to be 17tons It was more like 16tons. Mirage could hardly take off at full MToW. French define MToW as the limit at which the plane can still take off from a long runway, not the otpimal weight. This is done to make the specifications look nice for export customers. France even says that Rafale has 24ton MToW while an airshow showed how difficult it was for rafale to move in heavily loaded situation! Even Eurofighter has MToW 23ton despite having 90kN engine vs Rafale's 75kN!

So, comparing Mirage 2000 is unreasonable. Comparing F16 is more appropriate as USA specifies reasonable MToW weights. So, going by standard MToW payload, MWF will need 70/110kN engine. Dry thrust of 70kN will be extremely important if the plane will have to fly at decent speed with full load.

K10 is not something to see as the project is yet to be officially revealed. But the fact that it exists has been stated in 2015-6 itself when AMCA was said to have 110kN engine. That was an indication that project already started. The press falsely thought of this as "end of Kaveri". But the project is moving on as stated by Saurav Jha.

 

[Armand2REP]

That is why iaf now insists on performance based logistics. Isn't that why rafale contract is so costly.
Regarding foreign policy of USA . Adverse relationship with India will be a foreign policy failure. Turkey is a small bucket India is 9th largest trading partner of USA and climbing up .

I get you point. I want India to go for indigenous equipment. But USA wants India in its ecosystem and will compromise for that.

Performance based logistics... so that is why they don't make timely orders for MKI parts but do it for M2000.

Regarding foreign policy, the US only cares about itself. If it requires screwing India they will do it. It is all dependent on who is President. If Biden wins, you will see a much more pro-China policy at the expense of India.

 

[IndianHawk]

Mirage MToW was exaggerated to be 17tons It was more like 16tons. Mirage could hardly take off at full MToW.


K10 is not something to see as the project is yet to be officially revealed. But the fact that it exists has been stated in 2015-6 itself when AMCA was said to have 110kN engine. That was an indication that project already started. The press falsely thought of this as "end of Kaveri". But the project is moving on as stated by Saurav Jha.

And it's fine. Mwf won't have to flow with mtow for operational mission. Rather than 6.5 ton carrying 4.5 or 5 ton will be a very offensive payload.

K10 will have to go through development and testing phase on ground then flying test bed then integration with amca and testing
It might come after 2030. Till then we can't sit empty.

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[IndianHawk]

Performance based logistics... so that is why they don't make timely orders for MKI parts but do it for M2000.

Regarding foreign policy, the US only cares about itself. If it requires screwing India they will do it. It is all dependent on who is President. If Biden wins, you will see a much more pro-China policy at the expense of India.

Blocking India from obtaining spare parts and weapons for f18 or f16 for some elusive foreign policy goals seems too farfetched an idea .


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[Armand2REP]

Blocking India from obtaining spare parts and weapons for f18 or f16 for some elusive foreign policy goals seems too farfetched an idea .

If you don't get an exemption under CAATSA, they will automatically do it. That is their law. Doing business with them means not doing any new business with Russia.

 

[Arsalan123]

Sorry you can't do anything about Su30 also,
Pak cannot even operate double engine fighters due to budget constraint forget about doing anything about Rafale or meteor

Pakistan understands current situation and iaf already said that they are waiting for rafale.iaf also knows that paf will not sit silent and will do something to counter meteor missile.we have pl-15 and we might also use other missiles.jf-17 block 3 will surely have aesa and in this modern warfare age,most missiles use mid course update and both countries have awacs so it's very easy to guide very very long range bvr towards it's target.india will buy more rafales soon.they will probably buy 100 to 120 jets but pakistan will use this time frame as an opportunity.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Pakistan understands current situation and iaf already said that they are waiting for rafale.iaf also knows that paf will not sit silent and will do something to counter meteor missile.we have pl-15 and we might also use other missiles.jf-17 block 3 will surely have aesa and in this modern warfare age,most missiles use mid course update and both countries have awacs so it's very easy to guide very very long range bvr towards it's target.india will buy more rafales soon.they will probably buy 100 to 120 jets but pakistan will use this time frame as an opportunity.

And what is the official detail that you have the much touted pl15 which with the graphics seem a very heavy missile powered by the rocket motor that shows it will be used against awacs and tankers, will be an idiotic move to compare a Chinese light fighter with the Rafale ,you simply can't guide the missiles with an awacs,rather you can get the coordinates and let you X band radar focus on those coordinates to find the target and hit a missile via a datalink or a friendly fighter with buddy guidance does the job if that option is avialble. In between their are things called ,front end area,density of the trms, max power output ,radar gain and others ,how Chinese radar perform is only known to Chinese and their customers,and last I checked PAF prefered Swedish awacs over Chinese in the operations against India only supports the claim that Chinese radars are untested and severely short of the performance they claim. Pakistan has no rnd ,so they do use the time frame by watching others with a bowl,forget rafale ,pray the Jf17 block 3 even matches the Tejas mk1a which will also be packing an advance radar and ew suite with various other sensors and not just that ,their will be the data fusion which will collect all the information from all available sensors and present a common threat picture thereby reducing pilot work load and multiplying the situational awareness. It still will be third tier aircraft of the Indian airforce.

 

[IndianHawk]

If you don't get an exemption under CAATSA, they will automatically do it. That is their law. Doing business with them means not doing any new business with Russia.

S400 is coming soon. We will find out how effective CAATSA is. Giving exception only shows weakness on part of USA.

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[IndianHawk]

And what is the official detail that you have the much touted pl15 which with the graphics seem a very heavy missile powered by the rocket motor that shows it will be used against awacs and tankers, will be an idiotic move to compare a Chinese light fighter with the Rafale ,you simply can't guide the missiles with an awacs,rather you can get the coordinates and let you X band radar focus on those coordinates to find the target and hit a missile via a datalink or a friendly fighter with buddy guidance does the job if that option is avialble. In between their are things called ,front end area,density of the trms, max power output ,radar gain and others ,how Chinese radar perform is only known to Chinese and their customers,and last I checked PAF prefered Swedish awacs over Chinese in the operations against India only supports the claim that Chinese radars are untested and severely short of the performance they claim. Pakistan has no rnd ,so they do use the time frame by watching others with a bowl,forget rafale ,pray the Jf17 block 3 even matches the Tejas mk1a which will also be packing an advance radar and ew suite with various other sensors and not just that ,their will be the data fusion which will collect all the information from all available sensors and present a common threat picture thereby reducing pilot work load and multiplying the situational awareness. It still will be third tier aircraft of the Indian airforce.

Not just Chinese radar. Pakistan tried to replace most of Chinese avionics and weaponry from jf 17 with French systems. Indian mirage upgrade deal cancelled Pakistani dream . Pakistan air chief was crying bullets over this incident.

Goes to show Chinese avionics and weaponry is decades behind Western systems still.
Chinese themselves are relying on su35 as their premium fighter.

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[Advaidhya Tiwari]

And it's fine. Mwf won't have to flow with mtow for operational mission. Rather than 6.5 ton carrying 4.5 or 5 ton will be a very offensive payload.

K10 will have to go through development and testing phase on ground then flying test bed then integration with amca and testing
It might come after 2030. Till then we can't sit empty.

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How absurd! What is the point of eveloping MWF if it does not have to carry higher payload? Compromising on the payload is the last thing one can do. Don't simply argue for the sake or arguing.

S400 is coming soon. We will find out how effective CAATSA is. Giving exception only shows weakness on part of USA.

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None cares about CAATSA. It is simple logic that India has to make its own weapons, not get it from others. It is foolish to assume that you can buy a sword from someone to use it on the seller's friend! If you can't undertand the concept of war, please keep quiet

 

[IndianHawk]

How absurd! What is the point of eveloping MWF if it does not have to carry higher payload? Compromising on the payload is the last thing one can do. Don't simply argue for the sake or arguing.



None cares about CAATSA. It is simple logic that India has to make its own weapons, not get it from others. It is foolish to assume that you can buy a sword from someone to use it on the seller's friend! If you can't undertand the concept of war, please keep quiet

Again where is the higher thrust engine??
You can only use what you got . K9 and K10 are more like rumours. What funds have been sanctioned for their development , what is the timeline ? You think we will fight with imaginary engines !! Talk about stupidity.

Mwf will lift as much as mirage and more and that's good enough for a single engine fighter.

None is stopping indigenous development other then iaf obsession with foreign fighters.
Iaf has still not ordered lca mk1a and is salivating over rafale.



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[gryphus-scarface]

Again where is the higher thrust engine??
You can only use what you got . K9 and K10 are more like rumours. What funds have been sanctioned for their development , what is the timeline ? You think we will fight with imaginary engines !! Talk about stupidity.

Mwf will lift as much as mirage and more and that's good enough for a single engine fighter.

None is stopping indigenous development other then iaf obsession with foreign fighters.
Iaf has still not ordered lca mk1a and is salivating over rafale.



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Don't bother. He still thinks that we will use Kaveri and Uttam for Rafale.