Know Your 'Rafale'

[power_monger]

sin progressin progress

In progress is layman understanding. What is the percentage of completion? Most of them are on verge of Induction barring few. That does not make it look like average organisation.

 

[power_monger]

The Indian Navy has a Directorate of Indigenisation! Just read below and see how much more forward thinking the Navy is from the IAF!

Directorate of Indigenisation : Naval Commands : Indian Navy

Directorate of Indigenisation

INDIGENOUS PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT – A GUIDE

Product development is a highly technically challenging task and professional task. The multitude of agencies involved in development of equipment and systems for our Naval platforms not only within the Navy, but also outside the Navy, demands a very high degree of patience, perseverance and a deep understanding of all the processes involved. These processes range from financial, commercial, contractual as well as technical.

INTRODUCTION

Development in the field of Naval systems is inherently technology intensive and requires substantial investment of time, money and resources. Advancements in technology are no longer the preserve of defence and it is often the civil sector and the commercial concerns which drive the technology today. Industry, including the private sector and the academia can therefore play a vital role in meeting sophisticated needs of the armed forces through cost-effective utilisation of its know-how and existing infrastructure.

Naval equipment is designed to withstand very harsh marine environment and is generally built to NES/IN specific standards promulgated by professional dte/DME specs/EED Qs by DEE/NCDs by DNA. Some of the characteristics that differentiate Naval equipment from general purpose equipment are shock standards, Environmental testing as per JSS 55555 and EMI/EMC testing. The various standard to which an equipment is required to developed along with the testing procedure will be specified in SOTRs, which form part II of RFP.

The Navy as a customer and the industry as a supplier of the equipment and systems need to have a clear understanding of the requirements, and the plan for induction and Indigenous Development. Keeping this in focus and within the induction plan of new platforms, the '15 Year Indigenous Development Plan' was first prepared and promulgated in 2003. This plan was to be reviewed after every five years. The 15 Year Indigenous Development Plan has been revised based on requirements up to 2022 and formulated under the following major heads:-

(a) Marine Engineering

(b) Electrical Engineering

(c) Weapons and Sensors

(d) Submarine Equipment and Systems

(e) Project – 75 Equipment and Systems

This 15 Year Indigenous Development Plan can be accessed at ciidefence.com - ciidefence Resources and Information. This website is for sale!

VISION AND OBJECTIVES

Vision. To counter the problems of spiraling import costs of equipment and spares, and embargoes/ technology denial by foreign countries on a long term basis, the Navy aims to achieve Self-Reliance in maintaining and supporting its vital assets through Indigenous Development route within the ambit of Intellectual Property Rights (IPR).

To achieve the stated vision, a self-contained Indigenous Development Organisation capable of identifying needs, generating paper particulars and undertaking development of equipment and spares for all discipline has been created. This organisation is named Directorate of Indigenisation (DOI) at the IHQ MoD (N), which in the field/ Command level is assisted by Indigenisation Units (IUs) West and East under the administrative control of HQWNC and HQENC respectively.

post source : BRF

 

[Punya Pratap]

@ Pulkit & @ Powermonger the fact remains that even the IAF is on record as saying that Akash SAM is excellent and that was used as an argument against Maitri SAM JV with France.
You have to understand that there are various factors at work when it comes to indigenisation :

1) In critical tech like Ballistic missile, no one will give you the tech nor missiles over 300 kms range which is the reason why homegrown Prithvi/Agni series are our weapons of choice. But when it comes to fighter jets/tanks etc everyone will sell it to you for the simple reason of economies of scale where the more you export the cheaper it is for your OWN defense arms!

2) When the armed forces dont have a choice they back the projects such as Akash to the hilt but when they have choices they create hurdles even for domestic products such as Tejas and Arjun both of these can become world class systems if only the end user is willing to back it and help refine any flaws

3) On one hand we see ISRO taking India forward and setting benchmarks for the best Space Agencies of the world and on the other hand we see DRDO/HAL/ADA versus IAF/IA squabbling like fish mongers and buyers.

4) On one hand we see IN quietly and steadily building a World Class Blue Water Navy by taking ownership and investing in projects it wants completed and on the other hand IAF/IA are dead set against the same domestic policies adopted by IN and are trying their best to scuttle all indigenous products!!

5) Lastly there is something called ACCOUNTABILITY on part of the Designer/Manufacturer (DRDO/ADA/HAL) and End User (IAF/IA) I hope that a body like CAG constituted with experts and technocrats is formed to take unbiased decisions on feasibility and induction of weapon systems.

Lastly I pray to God that our Country becomes strong and self reliant and all these endless squabbles make me sick !!

 

[power_monger]

4) On one hand we see IN quietly and steadily building a World Class Blue Water Navy by taking ownership and investing in projects it wants completed and on the other hand IAF/IA are dead set against the same domestic policies adopted by IN and are trying their best to scuttle all indigenous products!!

The attitude of IN wrt same LCA has been far more aggressive.Look at the amount of involvement by Indian navy in NLCA to get best out of it. They have gone for radical changes to suit their needs.LCA will be sucessfull because of navy.Have no doubt in it.

 

[Zebra]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618


The above is Saurav jha's tweet. Think about why he made such tweet?

--------------------------------------------------------------

Henry Kissinger said in November 1968, after Richard Nixon was elected U.S. president but before he took office: "Nixon should be told that it is probably an objective of Clifford to depose Thieu (South Vietnamese president Nguyen Van Thieu—ed.) before Nixon is inaugurated. Word should be gotten to Nixon that if Thieu meets the same fate as Diem, the word will go out to the nations of the world that it may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal."

The quotation referred to America's role in Vietnam. If America doesn't stand by its friends and allies, the quotation explains, then it might ultimately be less dangerous to be America's enemy.

The saying was re-used in the 2000s, during the war on terror, when some critics felt the United States might weaken its resolve to wage the war. Critics of the foreign policy of President Obama in 2009 used the saying about United States' seemingly wavering support for its allies in Israel, Honduras and Eastern Europe (Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic).

The Big Apple: "It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal"

 

[Khagesh]

Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm

NEW DELHI: The government could ask France's Dassault Aviation to rope in an Indian partner to jointly manufacture the next batch of its Rafale fighters in the country as a condition for landing the remainder of the contract, a move it hopes will fulfil the 'Make in India' dimension that could not be met in its off-the-shelf purchase of 36 planes last week.

Sources familiar with the matter said there were initial discussions in the government on whether to press the French firm to sign up an Indian partner and form a joint venture company in which the local firm could own up to 51 per cent stake and this firm could execute the contract to supply the remaining planes.

The sources insisted that these were initial discussions and there was no certainty a final plan would have these contours.

<snip>

However, the official announcement last week made no mention about what happens to the remaining planes, prompting speculation in some quarters whether the government could look at fresh competitive bidding.

<snip>

NUMBER COULD BE REVISITED

Sources said that while the original requirement of 126 fighters for the air force stands, this number could be revisited in the coming days after a reassessment. A higher number of planes could encourage the French side, which could otherwise have reservations on ceding the controlling stake in the Indian joint venture, to set up a production base for the jets. Such an approach could counter criticism that the new Rafale deal does not give much to India in terms of technology transfer and production capabilities. Going about the remainder of the contract though the joint venture route could give the Indian private sector a chance to partake of the government's defence spending and develop manufacturing expertise in an area that has largely been the preserve of staterun firms.

The scrapping of the old Rafale deal, along with the cancellations of similar projects, is an indication that the L1, or lowest bidder based competitive bidding process, which was initiated by the UPA regime is on the way out. Some defence experts say the lengthy process of global competition has led to the stalling of many critical military acquisitions after these got bogged down by accusations of manipulations in testing or discrepancies in commercial proposals.

<snip>

Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - The Economic Times

Reality is there is no such counter criticism that the new Rafale deal does not give much to India in terms of technology transfer.

Everybody is happy that there is an end to MMRCA nonsense.

India, France Discuss Purchase of 63 Rafales

India, France Discuss Purchase of 63 Rafales
By Pierre Tran 12:32 p.m. EDT April 10, 2015

PARIS — French and Indian officials are negotiating an off-the-shelf order worth €7.2 billion (US $7.6 billion) for 63 Rafale fighter jets to equip three Indian Air Force squadrons, during a visit by the Indian prime minister, daily Le Monde reported Friday.

"The discussions lasted all night, they are continuing this morning," a source close to the talks said, Le Monde reported. "The idea is to be able to announce this contract during the visit to Paris of Narendra Modi, the Indian prime minister, on Friday or Saturday."


The Elysée President's Office and Dassault were not immediately available for comment, and the French Ministry of Defense declined comment.


DEFENSE NEWS
Dassault: Work on India Rafale Sale 95% Done

While the number of aircraft has yet to be finalized, the order would be for Rafales built in France rather than assembled in India with technology transfer. This is available under an option agreed with Dassault in 2012 for an off-the-shelf purchase of 63 "supplementary" units, the afternoon daily reported.

Negotiations have been conducted for three years for a purchase of 126 Rafales, of which 18 would be built in France and 108 in India. If agreed, this off-the-shelf deal would speed up acquisition for the Indian Air Force, the report said, while talks on the larger buy continued.

"The Rafale question is still under discussion and we should be able to move ahead on a mutually agreed basis," Modi told Le Figaro, the daily owned by the Dassault family.

Email: [email protected]

Our real requirement being 60 plus for an average 30 year inventory of 3 squads we hear the above report of the order of 36 being bumped up to 63 eventually and simultaneously we hear that LCA is only about a few months from here on.

Juxtapose that info with the known info that HAL has asked for a price revision upwards for the LCA Mk-1. If we hear something about the price revision - a confirmation then we can be sure to have an expanded LCA Mk-1 production plan which on the current line can, I think, produce with 16 an year.

The SAAB talks for a Make in Maharashtra say with Bharat Forge, would likely be for the LCA Mk-2. Which also makes sense.

I think people just need to relax a bit.

 

[ersakthivel]

I dont care about SJha's tweet. The view here is that HAL is NOT SERIOUS about local designs itself. It is happier building foreign designs as importing parts saves HAL from its own shortcomings, and probably stuffs the pockets of its senior management.

HAL has no shortage of money. HAL has very good balance-sheet. HAL asking money from GOI is foolish.

The facilities needed for building Tejas parts are MOSTLY GENERIC and are needed for any fighter aircraft, not only Tejas.

Not building contemporary facilities for building planes shows that HAL is not a serious aviation company.

" The view here is that HAL is NOT SERIOUS about local designs itself", here means?

"The facilities needed for building Tejas parts are MOSTLY GENERIC"- DO you have any proof, Please tell me how many high tech production lines are at present idling in HAL.Dont cite jag lines, High tech production lines fit for tejas .

"HAL has no shortage of money. HAL has very good balance-sheet. HAL asking money from GOI is foolish. ", Same applies to Dassault, then why was 18000 crore advance with in three months of selection was built into MMRCA deal? Doesn't the GOI know MNC fighter makers are full of money and , they will accept payment for each fighter as they roll out?

Just answer this one question. Indian navy has advance 900 crores first to ADA for designing tejas mk2. Till that day IAf did not advance any amount to either tejas mk1 or mk2 program.

Why did navy advance such an amount ? Didn't it know that HAl is full of funds?

 

[ersakthivel]

Impatience Seals Worst Possible Defence Deal | idrw.org

hen again, French fighter planes have proved inordinately expensive to maintain. How expensive? According to a recent report by the Comptroller and Accountant General, in 2012-2013, for example, the total cost of upkeep of all 51 Mirage 2000 aircraft in the IAF inventory was Rs 486.85 crore compared to Rs 877.84 crore for 170 Su-30MKIs—meaning, the annual unit cost of maintaining a Mirage was Rs 9.5 crore versus Rs 5.2 crore for the more capable Su-30MKI. Now ponder over this: The cost of upkeep of a Rafale is authoritatively estimated at twice the cost of the Mirage and, hence, four times that of Su-30!

The "Super Sukhoi" avatar of the air dominance-capable Su-30 entering IAF is equipped with the latest AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar permitting the switching between air-to-air and air-to-ground roles in flight, and which radar will be retrofitted on the older versions of this plane in service. In the event, in what combat profile exactly is the Rafale superior?

The defence minister Manohar Parrikar was partial to the Su-30 option, having publicly stated that it was more affordable—its procurement price half that of a Rafale, and that owing to improved spares supply condition, its serviceability rate would rise to 75 per cent by year-end, exceeding that of the Mirage, incidentally. Even so, the loyal Parrikar praised Modi's Rafale initiative as providing "minimum oxygen" for the IAF without letting on that it will maximally oxygenate French interests and industry!

While Modi talked of a low G2G price for the Rafale, he said nothing about its servicing bill. According to a former Vice Chief of the Air Staff, the total life-cycle costs (LCC) for a fleet of 126 Rafales calculated by Air Headquarters is over $40 billion. How will the LCC be downscaled if only 36 or 66 Rafales are eventually bought? If the real acquisition price of the ordnance-loaded Rafales is added to the LCC the total outgo will be upwards of $50billion-$55 billion, a figure this analyst had mentioned many moons ago.

Indeed, the odds actually are that India will end up buying the entire MMRCA requirement from France. Why? With 36 aircraft slotted in the direct sales category, it is already cost-prohibitive for any Indian private sector company to invest in a production line valued at $5billion-$6 billion to produce the remaining 60 or even 90 aircraft. In other words, by pledging to buy enhanced numbers of Rafales from Dassault the Narendra Modi government will be constrained by economic logic to buy the rest from this source as well, a denouement the IAF had always desired. Why else was the IAF Chief Arup Raha so desperate to get the PM to commit to buying significant numbers of this aircraft outright on the pretext of "critical" need when the Rafales will come in only by 2018 at the earliest but importing Su-30s from Russia would have beefed up the force by this year-end?

Previous prime ministers have been victimised by bad advice, and paid the political price, for instance, Rajiv Gandhi with regard to the Bofors gun. Modi will have to carry the can for this Rafale transaction—a boondoggle in the making. With the opposition parties and Dr Subramaniam Swamy waking up to its potential to politically hamstring the BJP government and mar Modi's prospects, anything can happen.

 

[Khagesh]

How Dassault Aviation killed the Golden Goose (MMRCA) | idrw.org

Bharat Karnad is a bit of a maverick.

Dassault did not kill the golden goose. It is perhaps the only party that benefited the best. From being a party that was about to get kicked out for not providing enough details to finally reach a point where they get to keep their own assembly line humming for long long after the Absolutely Essential French Air Force requirements are met completely smacks of politico-corporate espionage and tag teem fighting. Personally I am already beginning to look at the Cobham LCA nose cone delay as a planned thing with many people involved. Though I admit it is a CT even for me. But we must remember this CT has the backing of precedence. Even the French betrayed the Argentines some decades back with the Exocets.

From an Indian citizen's point of view we just got saved say about 30-60% of the total estimated tag had we kept going on in the MMRCA route of total imandari and above board verifiable legally spik and span RFP-competition route.

For the IAF - well I think we need a deep-deep overhaul of this system that affects deeply the life of everybody above flying duty. I mean every single one of them above flying duty needs to be re-assessed for his loyalty first and foremost. Off course done discretely. I am only a chirkut citizen aam admi and can afford to be lose tongued but obviously the Indian defence establishment and its leaders need to be more understated.

For HAL - Give them a price jump and a bigger order. And tell them to fcuk off if they try to get their hands on LCA Mk-2.

For ADA - Good job. A one time sabashi increment and back to the drawing boards.

For DRDO - Get a full timer in and get them to work on blisks while scouting for some help internationally to get their SC blades into production and updation.

For GoI - Cut the losses of a bad decision and create FUD all round for others. No point trying to look for friends anywhere. Start creating new business opportunities in cooperative mode with strict secrecy for the products and clear contracts for the participants.

For us Fanboys and self learners - just keep the fingers crossed or kiss the wood or whatever, to calm the nerves. Modi ain't going to listen to anybody at all and he can keep doing that for next 4 years. So buckle up.

 

[Armand2REP]

Considering Rafale has a 93% serviceability rate compared to 48% for the MKI, it's a no-brainer.

 

[SajeevJino]

Considering Rafale has a 93% serviceability rate compared to 48% for the MKI, it's a no-brainer.

same for Mirages too.!!

 

[Khagesh]

Serveability was a propaganda for both Su30 and Rafale.

Apples to Donkeys comparison.

Its a no-brainer.

 

[Khagesh]

Even for Mirage. It was the ultimate ass that got compared.

Again a no brainer.

 

[sgarg]

Considering Rafale has a 93% serviceability rate compared to 48% for the MKI, it's a no-brainer.

That may be in French service, not in Indian service. Wait until you get figures from Indian service.
The service-ability will be much higher in France due to far better spares support and technical support.

 

[sgarg]

Just to put all parties on the ground again - the contract for 36 has not been signed. So the party should wait.

Let us see how it goes. My prediction about Rafale is NOT GOOD. The very fact that negotiation under MMRCA dragged so much puts French intentions in doubt.

 

[Ray]

DRDO is a world class organization when it comes to missiles and radars.Why dont you accept its success in that area?Only a handfull of countries have developed missiles crossing 5k Ballistic missile?We have a potential world class system like Astra missile which is almost near induction. How many countries around world have this tech? only Few handfull. We are ahead to even say china when it comes to BMD tech development.

Appreciate and criticize an organisation in same vein.

it is only if you knew what and which country was behind the success.

 

[power_monger]

it is only if you knew what and which country was behind the success.

Oh yeah!!! Why would russia part away its technology in say a money spinning missile like Astra? When they did not do a technology transfer for T-90 how can i believe that they did for Astra?

Why would Russia help India in developing BMD when it is trying hard to sell S-300/S-400?

Why would Russia help DRDO to build Akash when it has similar systems to offer for India?

Russians did not give Brahmos for Free. They have extracted each and every penny from it.

And why is DRDO inspite of receiving all blueprints from Russia(as per you) are still taking years to go from Agni - 1 to Agni - 5? Do you understand the technological challenges which DRDO faced to develop while going from say agni -3 to agni -5?

Russia has co-operated in certain areas. That Does not make it IP owner of the Missile technology which DRDO scientist have worked hard to reach at.Respect the scientist who have given us strategic arms to defend against.

 

[Pulkit]

In progress is layman understanding. What is the percentage of completion? Most of them are on verge of Induction barring few. That does not make it look like average organisation.

who said it is an average organisation it is a below average one.


What you need to ask is how long has it been In Progress?

It is not only about Missiles but various other factors in which DRDO has not given any outcome.

Percentage of completion is known to nobody but how many deadlines have been missed is know to all.


I am a Layman Having some information about DRDO and defense.
I do give due credit to DRDO but cannot give them undue credit....

 

[power_monger]

who said it is an average organisation it is a below average one.


What you need to ask is how long has it been In Progress?

It is not only about Missiles but various other factors in which DRDO has not given any outcome.

I am a Layman Having some information about DRDO and defense.
I do give due credit to DRDO but cannot give them undue credit....

I was talking about Missiles and radars only.To Reach to the place occupied by very few countries even without sufficient funds and testing facilities,it takes time and effort.

Let me give you a small example.In ballistic missile defense, there is a important parameter called proxmity fuze. An interceptor which is travelling at 2-3 km per second must blast itself when it comes into the near proximity of a incomming ballistic missile which is moving at speed of 5-8 km per seconds. DRDO did not had any such facility to perform such test until they in 2014 when they made Rail track Rocket sled.Yes,only in 2014.We do not even have all facilities for basic testing,yet we have come so far.

I can keep saying 1000 such examples where lack of testing facilities did not stop DRDO's advance in missile.And keeping the funds shortage and lack of such facilities DRDO has come very far.And if you do not know the progress of various missiles in DRDO do not assume that others do not have much info.Nirbhay cruise missile development was carried out in just 90 crores. go figure how much america spent on it.

Take my point,by 2018-2019 all the missiles which i have mentioned will be inducted(except for Anti radiation missile) which will prove that DRDO is a world class organization when it comes to Radars and missiles.

Some of you guys make perfect example of saying 'ghar ki murgi dal barabar'

 

[Pulkit]

I was talking about Missiles and radars only.To Reach to the place occupied by very few countries even without sufficient funds and testing facilities,it takes time and effort.

Let me give you a small example.In ballistic missile defense, there is a important parameter called proxmity fuze. An interceptor which is travelling at 2-3 km per second must blast itself when it comes into the near proximity of a incomming ballistic missile which is moving at speed of 5-8 km per seconds. DRDO did not had any such facility to perform such test until they in 2014 when they made Rail track Rocket sled.Yes,only in 2014.We do not even have all facilities for basic testing,yet we have come so far.

I can keep saying 1000 such examples where lack of testing facilities did not stop DRDO's advance in missile.And keeping the funds shortage and lack of such facilities DRDO has come very far.And if you do not know the progress of various missiles in DRDO do not assume that others do not have much info.Nirbhay cruise missile development was carried out in just 90 crores. go figure how much america spent on it.

Take my point,by 2018-2019 all the missiles which i have mentioned will be inducted(except for Anti radiation missile) which will prove that DRDO is a world class organization when it comes to Radars and missiles.

Some of you guys make perfect example of saying 'ghar ki murgi dal barabar'

Haha .... how fast you all generalize people....

I am one of those who have at every stage backed home made weaponary, but this is reality that everything is not ok with DRDO.

About In-progress I will wait for 100% completion everything in between is not valid.
Once the product is out tested and inducted we will talk and given by the history of DRDO few more delays can be expected.



i THINK YOU JUST READ BUT DIDNOT UNDERSTAND MY POINT THEREFORE HERE IT IS AGAIN:


who said it is an average organisation it is a below average one.


What you need to ask is how long has it been In Progress?----> How much delayed are each and every one of these projects is?

It is not only about Missiles but various other factors in which DRDO has not given any outcome.

I am a Layman Having some information about DRDO and defense.

I do give due credit to DRDO but cannot give them undue credit...


I do not say they have done nothing ,, but not what was expected from them....