Know Your 'Rafale'

[sgarg]

Honestly if I was handling procurements, I would INVITE the big industrial groups like Reliance, Tata and Mahindra and give them complete support and long term orders for fighters, transports and UAV systems which are needed by country so urgently.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Now that the MMRCA deal has been limited to a G 2 G deal there are lots of people raising questions about whether we should really have ordered the FlyAway Rafales coz the Indian order for 36 jets has provided Dassault the much needed capital injection otherwise it was tottering due to slashed orders from the French Air Force (AdA) So the Govt's decision has been under fire while not taking everything in account before passing judgement:

1) The French MoD and Dassault got out of the fix when they signed the deal with Egypt and that gave the French the much needed respite where the production lines could be kept busy for the next two years while the AdA orders could be readjusted towards Egyptian delivery schedule. The Egypt deal was what gave Dassault the OXYGEN and weakened our negotiation, had the Egypt deal not been signed Dassault could nt have played hardball too long.

2) the 36 Fly Away Rafales were a out come of that and the Plan B of the GoI where they could have either kept on pressing Dassault knowing no body else was going to order Rafales (AdA also slashing their deliveries) but once the Egypt deal was signed the GoI knew they had to order whatever minimum Rafales they needed.

3) The MoD knows HAL wont be able to deliver the Tejas on time and Mig 27's start retiring next year onwards so they had no choice but to meet the immediate shortfall IMMEDIATELY!!

4) The most important question is whether the Dassault's financial position is more important or the immediate requirement for the replacements of Mig 27?? In my opinion it does nt really matter whether Dassault is about to go bankrupt but what matters is that next year onwards about 8 Squads of Mig 27 will start getting retired.

5) The 36 Rafales are to SHORE UP the Squadrons strength while 2 Tejas Mk 1 Squads should start production and induction by the time the last 3 squads of Mig 27 start bowing out.

6) The DM's statement about Tejas or any other Light Fighter stepping in his a pointer as well as a veiled threat to HAL...either they deliver or they loose out but this Govt will not delay induction of necessary defense equipments like the UPA 1 & UPA 2

IF you join the dots you will see the above is the course of action taken by GoI keeping in mind the state of affairs. Now they really need to crack the whip on HAL as well like they did with DRDO... I am only waiting for more than a half dozen sackings in the next couple of months !! I would nt mind if the Govt sells half of its share and hands over the management to Pvt Cos' to ensure timely and quality deliveries!!

 

[Illusive]

@pmaitra has India really bought Rafale yet, cause whatever parikkar has said seems to imply that mmrca has be dropped for G2G contract, which hasn't been signed yet or being negotiated. So India is yet to buy rafale.

 

[ersakthivel]

All justifications in the favour of indigenous production are fine. However, the fact is that LCA Tejas received its IOC-2 on 20 December 2013. At the time of IOC-2, it had firm order for 20 aircraft and 16 trainers. An additional 20 aircraft were to be produced after the FOC. Now, it is April 2015 -- i.e. - 16-17 months after the IOC-2. But all I can see is one LCA SP-1 has been produced and handed over.

What is wrong with HAL then? It is one (1) aircraft produced in almost two years. Calling it incompetence and pure criminal behaviour will be actually complement to HAL here. Do they even want to be in indigenous production business or they are happy doing Russian license screwdriver production? What kind of people work there ? There is need for a major technical and personnel audit of that company with consequent massive retrenchment for bringing that company to 21st century.

Please read the last few pages of tejas thread here to know what is preventing HAL from investing enough into tejas line.

 

[ersakthivel]

Honestly if I was handling procurements, I would INVITE the big industrial groups like Reliance, Tata and Mahindra and give them complete support and long term orders for fighters, transports and UAV systems which are needed by country so urgently.

GIve them just 40 a piece order for each of them , They wont invest a penny,They are not HAL to sink in 1800 crores into tejas mk1 production line with just 40 confirmed orders and import lobbies breathing down the MOD neck , with the services saying "We want the global best"!!!

 

[Ray]

with the services saying "We want the global best"!!!

Not really.

The defence merely howls - give us what is our tactical and strategic requirement.

The DRDO says - no problem, we will give you world's best.

The Defence forces glow with great warmth.

After years a lemon is offered by the DRDO.

Read the news, Parrikar has put the heat under the DRDO posterior by obliquely warning that the Tejas is under the eagle eye - deliver or shut shop.

DRDO has been using the GOI as merely a cash cow for their comfort zone.

Presently my soul grew stronger; hesitating then no longer,
"Sir," said I, "or Madam, truly your forgiveness I implore;
But the fact is I was napping, and so gently you came rapping,
And so faintly you came tapping, tapping at my chamber door,
That I scarce was sure I heard you"—here I opened wide the door;—
Darkness there and nothing more.

 

[sgarg]

GIve them just 40 a piece order for each of them , They wont invest a penny,They are not HAL to sink in 1800 crores into tejas mk1 production line with just 40 confirmed orders and import lobbies breathing down the MOD neck , with the services saying "We want the global best"!!!

How do you know? Was any order of 40 was issued to any private company?
The transport tender was responded to Tata despite the low number. GOI has made a mistake by not awarding it to Tata. What was wrong if there was only one response.
HAL can be inserted into MMRCA tender but Tata wont get transport order. Is there some logic here?? The problem is archaic procurement policy which treats public sector like spoiled brats.

 

[ersakthivel]

How do you know? Was any order of 40 was issued to any private company?
The transport tender was responded to Tata despite the low number. GOI has made a mistake by not awarding it to Tata. What was wrong if there was only one response.
HAL can be inserted into MMRCA tender but Tata wont get transport order. Is there some logic here?? The problem is archaic procurement policy which treats public sector like spoiled brats.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618

This circular bullshit of HAL saying won't ramp up till we get more firm orders and IAF saying won't order more till MK-2 has to end.

The above is Saurav jha's tweet. Think about why he made such tweet?

 

[Ray]

I am convinced that India is a country with a huge bank of talent.

If Kurt Tank with a few German technicians and with a host of Indian engineers, technicians and scientists could design and build the most modern military aircraft of that time, the HF 24 in record time, I find no reason as to why we cannot do so now.

HAL's success stories are all crafted under Air Force heads. Actually, barring the last couple of heads of the HAL, it was the IAF that provided the talent for the top job. A measure of the importance of the position is that at least four of them- Aspy Engineer, P.C. Lal, OP Mehra and AM Katre subsequently went on to head the Indian Air Force itself.

HAL has been spoilt from the very outset when it received the production lines of the Mig-21, the Jaguar and the Sukhoi 30 MKI from abroad, and has basically gone on to make aircraft whose indigenous content is casually fudged, because it is well known that all important assemblies and sub- assemblies are imported.

The most telling compulsion for the government to go the air force way is the experience of the Indian Navy. Most of the naval shipyards in the country are run by serving or retired naval personnel. The Indian Navy is also the one service which, through effective coordination between its warship design centres and the dockyard, has indigenised India's surface warship production. All the stealth frigates, the aircraft carrier and the smaller craft with the Navy are Indian designed and manufactured.

Does speak of the work ethics of civilian heads.

 

[ersakthivel]

How Dassault Aviation killed the Golden Goose (MMRCA) | idrw.org

Dassault aviation was playing hardball from the very beginning said IAF source close to idrw.org, "Dassault aviation became too greedy on its margins" said French defence experts after India only placed orders for 36 jets. But it is not one instance but several instance which could question Dassault companies ethical business practices. let start from beginning, Dassault aviation as per request for proposal (RfP) in bidding process itself failed to provide full technical details of Rafale fighter jets and was close to being eliminated, when diplomatic intervention prevented its early exit of the biggest fighter jet competition in the world .

This was not the only instance of a lackluster attitude of Dassault aviation was also noticed In 2009 and 2011 edition of AeroIndia which is Asia's Premier Airshow and India's Biggest Aerospace exhibition . Dassault Aviation simply couldn't get Rafale fighter jets to the exhibitions even when other contenders in MMRCA tenders participated in full force . when idrw.org had questioned them in 2011 edition we were not able to get clear answers from their officials and it seemed like they were not interested in bringing the real thing to India to save few millions.

After Rafale and Eurofighter jet were shortlisted and Rafale bid by Dassault Aviation was declared as L1 (lowest bidder). Dassault aviation immediately selected Mumbai-based Mukesh Ambani-led Indian conglomerate Reliance Industries Limited (RIL) as its private sector partner to manufacture the Rafale Combat jets in India. it was the first deviation from original contract clause since RFP had clearly mentioned that State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited company will be the one who will manufacture jets in India under Transfer of technology (TOT).

The Second deviation was when Dassault aviation refused to guarantee on work done by HAL of Rafale fighter jets produced in India. it also didn't want to be the one who will be liable for financial penalties if there are delays in delivery schedule, While HAL, and Dassault aviation at the final stage of negotiation agreed to a compromise but MOD and Defence minister Parrikar were not convinced about the compromise since it didn't clearly defined who could be liable for financial liabilities.

Modi in France placed an order for 36 Rafale fighter jet which will be a G2G deal and the French government will be discussing it with Dassault aviation and the Indian government will have direct talks with the French government . Such G2G deal shows how frustrated Indian negotiation committee were with Dassault aviation. Dassault aviations lackluster attitude and lazy response is quite legendary in France and a survey done by a French media house had said that many in France didn't believe that Dassault aviation ever be able to crack a deal with India .

Discussions with French counterpart can be frustrating not doubt about that said same source. remember GTRE-Snecma plans to develop a new engine from mating technology from the M88-Kaveri engine? Well, that discussion went on for 5 years without any results and India should be glad that capable leadership in India did not allow it to drag on for few more years.

 

[ersakthivel]

Rafale deal signifies a paradigm shift | idrw.org

Defence purchases have been bogged down by emphasis on procedure, as against strategic concerns. This could change

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's recent visit to France has resulted in an inter-governmental agreement to buy 36 Rafale fighters off the shelf. This brings down the curtains on a painfully long-drawn defence acquisition deal. Clearly, the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) case demonstrates the ills of India's defence acquisition process. In this context, Defence Minister Manohar Parikkar stated that "we kept going in circles", with no end in sight.

The requirement to replace ageing Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter aircraft began to be projected in the early 1990s. While the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was meant to replace the Ajeets and MiG-21s, the MMRCA was to plug the void created by other ageing fighter aircraft namely Mig-23s and MiG-27s. True to our style, two decades later neither the LCA nor the MMRCA has materialised. As a result, the IAF has undergone an alarming reduction in fighter aircraft force levels.

We have close to 200 su-30 MKI, which the author conveniently forgets, It is the fashion in IAF circles to completely forget and ignore 272 su-30 MKI and only 36 rafales matter.

Caught in a web

The revised MMRCA acquisition process began in 2004, with the stated intention to induct the first squadron by 2008-09. Touted as the biggest fighter acquisition tender, the procurement got stuck in the self-created intricate cobwebs of the acquisition process. What now stands out glaringly is the ineffectiveness of our process. It appears New Delhi was keener to demonstrate to the international community the fairness and professionalism of its acquisition system than to respond to the interests of national security.

As per the report above what is to be questioned is the fairness of Dasault's negotiating practice.

Evidently a major procurement like the MMRCA has strategic implications that deal with technology acquisition (not just licence production), joint ventures, and exports as part of a global supply chain and collaboration in R&D, which together nurture the fledgling defence industrial ecosystem. The user requirement of operational performance and life-cycle costs is just the first step.

Unfortunately, as it often happens, the user requirements take centrestage and national strategic requirements take backstage. As a result, the MMRCA tender process has got stuck in a conflict between the narrow tactical focus of user requirement and the larger national economic interests.

The user consistently stated that su-30 MKI is not good for strikes, Is it correct or wrong?

All-round impact

So what exactly is the impact of the Prime Minister's announcement to procure 36 Rafale aircraft through an inter-governmental agreement?

The most important result is the liberating impact on the two governments. It frees the Indian government from a prison of its own making — the long delayed acquisition process that outlived its cost control, operational, and strategic utility. The decision has enabled the government to support the IAF in strengthening itself quickly.

This agreement will enable the IAF to have two fully operational Rafale squadrons in less than three years. Besides, the possibility of increasing this strength by another squadron is a distinct possibility at a later date, much like the Mirage 2000 procurement in the past. Moreover, it soothes the French government's sensitivities by putting our strategic partnership on an even keel, as there are bigger economic cooperation programmes to deal with. Having addressed the immediate issues through an inter-governmental procurement, the government now has time on its side to address larger strategic issues in a more carefully thought out manner.

What happens to the on-going MMRCA negotiations? The joint statement has made it clear that it will continue as a separate issue and that the 36 aircraft deal is not linked to it. To understand this one needs to read between the lines. By delaying it endlessly, the 126 aircraft deal has become a question mark on its financial viability. Besides, there have been serious questions on Dassault's willingness to comply with technology requirements and cost control. In the current context of 'Make in India', it may need to be dealt with outside the limits imposed by the Request for Proposal (RfP). In effect, this will mean scrapping the MMRCA RfP process so that the government is free to make a decision in light of larger national interests. Effectively, this inter-governmental agreement has sealed the fate of the RfP process.

Modi govt is not going for G to G in many other deals , which are all going to be open tender like subs and LUH. It was the UPA's corruption goose in MRCA that is being cooked into G to g deal.

Manufacturing possibility

Is there a case for MMRCA manufacture? Certainly! And this needs to be addressed in a manner that will meet the larger strategic interests of the country. By selecting an aircraft through an inter-governmental decision, the country could achieve its larger objective of 'Make in India' by ensuring the requisite technology acquisition, develop the aerospace industrial ecosystem to become part of the global supply chain, create collaborative joint ventures for future developmental projects, and build a strong defence export industry. This could be Rafale or any other aircraft as long as the government is able to address the core issues of technology transfer, joint production, and design collaboration in future projects.

With just one or at the most two raafale squadrons where is the MMRCA manufacturing opportunity?

That raises an important question with respect to our acquisition system. Is it wise to go for a competitive RfP process for high value defence procurements?

The MMRCA experience clearly indicates a big 'No'. It is better that such procurements are done through an inter-governmental process where strategic interests are unambiguously stated, negotiated without compromise, and rapidly set in motion without the threat of the Damocles swords of CVC and CAG that hang above the heads of decision-makers.

Modi govt is not going for G to G in many other deals , which are all going to be open tender like subs and LUH. It was the UPA's corruption goose in MRCA that is being cooked into G to g deal.

More importantly in such a decision-making process, professionals and technocrats rather than a generalist bureaucracy should aid the political leadership to integrate military and economic interests better.

All the makings of banana republic!!!!

The writer, a retired air marshal, was deputy chief of Integrated Defence Staff, and a test pilot. He is an advisor to HAL and the aerospace taskforce of Ficci

 

[akshay m]

shiv aroor author of ;livefist said this at BR

one of his better posts

even these journo's are getting things right about the IAF
they want the tastiest ,bestest food, spoon fed to them
but can't bother to find or even help cook a simple chapathi and dal or even maggi 2 minutes noodles

Ironically - in the height of desperate inter European wars - this was exactly the situation that many European air forces were in. Aircraft of varying standards of excellence/incompetence were being churned out and being flown and crashed at a faster rate that we like to talk about.

The IAF missed all this and has been fed with what has been tested by others - with foreign test pilots having died and half ready planes passed. If you look back at the history of the Gnat and MiG 21, each of those planes had some very good points and each had some hopeless fail issues that needed correction. Indians have gone and stayed in God Forsaken places and been instructed in Russian and still not found out everything and have found faults on their own. The IAF has taken excessive pride in finding faults that Russia or Britain corrected for us, and then claiming "Hey we fly better than them". It is OK to genuflect when we are getting Russia or some foreign company to do the job. It is Indians in front of whom the Lord God IAF must not genuflect

Your descriptive language about the IAF's inability to genuflect may be perfectly accurate and honest about a military force that acts cocky and arrogant Ultimately such arrogance is stupid and unnecessary. Few people make the case that Indian manufacturing agencies are good - -but the Air Force need a kick up its butt for things like
1. Being a users air force with no insight into being a builders force
2. Being cocky buggers with an elite fighter jocks club who simply do not "want to genuflect" in front of their own colleagues and coursemates and will never allow a non flying cadre, a transport pilot or a helo pilot to become Chief of Air staff.

Thanks for showing up that cocky attitude in a beautifully illustraive post.

i am quoting another post of his

Is the IAF involved in the AMCA program at all? Does anyone know? Does IAF have a specific set of demands for a future aircraft? Or are the dsign agencies going it alone making wild guesses about what the IAF may need or simply making wild guesses.

At all Aero india exhibitions for the last 6 or more years the AMCA model is in the HAL (or is it ADA?) stall. There is no Air Force person anywhere in sight other than Garuds looking after security.

Even when it comes to LCA - I have consistently met Navy people but no one from the Air Force.

Are we setting ourselves up for another long darwn out "Make in India" farce while the Air Force has already decided on and paid for PAKFA where Russia is in the drivers seat telling IAF, "No you won't get a two seater. You can manage with a single seater" and the IAF is ready to accept that?

 

[power_monger]

Not really.

The defence merely howls - give us what is our tactical and strategic requirement.

The DRDO says - no problem, we will give you world's best.

The Defence forces glow with great warmth.

After years a lemon is offered by the DRDO.

Read the news, Parrikar has put the heat under the DRDO posterior by obliquely warning that the Tejas is under the eagle eye - deliver or shut shop.

DRDO has been using the GOI as merely a cash cow for their comfort zone.

DRDO is a world class organization when it comes to missiles and radars.Why dont you accept its success in that area?Only a handfull of countries have developed missiles crossing 5k Ballistic missile?We have a potential world class system like Astra missile which is almost near induction. How many countries around world have this tech? only Few handfull. We are ahead to even say china when it comes to BMD tech development.

Appreciate and criticize an organisation in same vein.

 

[power_monger]

Saw a tweet which says,

"Here's Navy team (DND) that designed P15B Destroyer.Show me an IAF team that designed anything for a fighter plane? "

 

[Pulkit]

DRDO is a world class organization when it comes to missiles and radars.Why dont you accept its success in that area?Only a handfull of countries have developed missiles crossing 5k Ballistic missile?We have a potential world class system like Astra missile which is almost near induction. How many countries around world have this tech? only Few handfull. We are ahead to even say china when it comes to BMD tech development.

Appreciate and criticize an organisation in same vein.

No body ignores that point.
DRDO succeeded in missile tech only and only because there was no body actually selling us missiles, So they had to develop them.

IAF IA didnt bother them to develop Tanks and A/C hence they did not ... But the missiles were required so we did have some success there.


In Missiles also we do not have large variety or If have to say a huge scope. We still are planning various JV for missiles only which tells that we still lack some where.

 

[power_monger]

No body ignores that point.
DRDO succeeded in missile tech only and only because there was no body actually selling us missiles, So they had to develop them.

IAF IA didnt bother them to develop Tanks and A/C hence they did not ... But the missiles were required so we did have some success there.


In Missiles also we do not have large variety or If have to say a huge scope. We still are planning various JV for missiles only which tells that we still lack some where.

Pulkit - apart from barak 8 which is the joint venture planned?
In case of maitri,DRDO is already in advanced stage of Inhouse QRSAM which you will hear soon.

Missile Series

Agni Series - All Agni series Ballistic missiles will be inducted by year end(Agni 6 with MIRV is about to be tested,you will hear on it soon)
Akash missiles - Great sucess and inducted by IAF and Army(shortly)
Astra missile - On the verge of Induction.A truly world class system
Nirbhay cruise missile - Will be inducted soon,DRDO is currently building a family of cruise missiles with different ranges and for different usages. 3 years and you will be seeing a complete set of Cruise missile family
helina - Near Induction
CLGM - Good progress is there(Israel is supporting us here)
Nag - Not near completing(Compelty redesigned and is starting to be tested again).
QRSAM - DRDO is in advanced stages of this missile with testing planned year end.This is a Astra bassed missile with vertical launch and canister based suited for all three forces and urgently navy
AAd/PDV - Has shown excellent results there
Anti radiation missile - First test expected around 2016
200 Km LRSAM(not barak 8) - a cost effective air defense missile around 2016
ATGM - Sorry, I dont know anything on this.

You see in couple of years we will be possesing every missile in our armoury.What else do you want? By 2018 we will have virtually every missile underour skin. Isn't that good enough? Isn't that world class?For a country which lacks testing facilities and funds,isnt this good achievment in this particular area?

Please do tell me what are the options lacking here?

 

[Pulkit]

DRDO has a long way to go in terms of satisfying all needs of Defense forces in terms of Missile systems.
Just going by your comments only you can see that we are still to meet the basic needs of defense forces.
We have seen good results and progress in major projects but they are yet to be completed just like u said.

We are still importing or planning JV means we lack confidence in ourselves or there is something we dont hve but we need desperately that was my whole point.

thanks for putting examples to support my argument.

Pulkit - apart from barak 8 which is the joint venture planned?

I was basically pointing towards Brahmos. What I meant is that we still seek help in terms of technology from outside to develop a desi missile system

In case of maitri,DRDO is already in advanced stage of Inhouse QRSAM which you will hear soon.

Yet to be completed

Missile Series

Agni Series - All Agni series Ballistic missiles will be inducted by year end(Agni 6 with MIRV is about to be tested,you will hear on it soon)
Akash missiles - Great sucess and inducted by IAF and Army(shortly)

Not sufficient for Indian Navy hence a JV or another program planned. IA and IAF planning for more batteries even

Astra missile - On the verge of Induction.A truly world class system

No doubt it is a great system but again In progress. Still trials are going on .. I have not heard of it being ordered yet ..

Nirbhay cruise missile - Will be inducted soon,DRDO is currently building a family of cruise missiles with different ranges and for different usages. 3 years and you will be seeing a complete set of Cruise missile family

In Progress

helina - Near Induction

in progress

CLGM - Good progress is there(Israel is supporting us here)

work in progress

Nag - Not near completing(Compelty redesigned and is starting to be tested again).

in progress

QRSAM - DRDO is in advanced stages of this missile with testing planned year end.This is a Astra bassed missile with vertical launch and canister based suited for all three forces and urgently navy

in progress

AAd/PDV - Has shown excellent results there

in progress

Anti radiation missile - First test expected around 2016

in progress

200 Km LRSAM(not barak 8) - a cost effective air defense missile around 2016

in progress

ATGM - Sorry, I dont know anything on this.

You see in couple of years we will be possesing every missile in our armoury.What else do you want? By 2018 we will have virtually every missile underour skin. Isn't that good enough? Isn't that world class?For a country which lacks testing facilities and funds,isnt this good achievment in this particular area?

Please do tell me what are the options lacking here?

 

[pmaitra]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618


The above is Saurav jha's tweet. Think about why he made such tweet?

Here is the correct link: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/588281602083397632

 

[sgarg]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618


The above is Saurav jha's tweet. Think about why he made such tweet?

I dont care about SJha's tweet. The view here is that HAL is NOT SERIOUS about local designs itself. It is happier building foreign designs as importing parts saves HAL from its own shortcomings, and probably stuffs the pockets of its senior management.

HAL has no shortage of money. HAL has very good balance-sheet. HAL asking money from GOI is foolish.

The facilities needed for building Tejas parts are MOSTLY GENERIC and are needed for any fighter aircraft, not only Tejas.

Not building contemporary facilities for building planes shows that HAL is not a serious aviation company.

 

[sgarg]

HAL MUST lose this attitude of a government department and start behaving like a commercial enterprise. Otherwise HAL will be relegated to insignificance in due time.

I fully support GOI's initiative to support private sector aircraft manufacturing.