Know Your 'Rafale'

[sgarg]

Gripen is very very unlikely. But it makes sense for DM to keep the field open. A single phrase can cause so much buzz on the discussion forums.

People talk about Gripen but forget F-16. Why??

Since Navy is buying Mig-29K, there is always a possibility of Mig-35 finding its way to IAF despite its two engines. Who knows?

The dull discussion forums have suddenly become full of activity. The speculation will keep people busy.

 

[Lone Ranger]

@Lone Ranger, your 8-10 Rafale sq will not materialize suddenly by magic. If the process is started today, it will take 15 years.

Let us compare the situation today - how many 4th gen fighters China fields today compared to India??

China can build and induct 100+ fighters every year. See where that takes you after 15 years.

Dassault is capable of delivering 36 rafales per yr if they get enough order so for 8 squad 5-6 yrs is enough , their current production rate is related to lack of orders

 

[sgarg]

Dassault is capable of delivering 36 rafales per yr if they get enough order so for 8 squad 5-6 yrs is enough , their current production rate is related to lack of orders

Just refer to what the Frenchman said about capacity on another Rafale thread. Increasing capacity is not so easy.
Anyway your wish is highly theoretical. There is NO indication whatsoever of anybody going in that direction.

The 36 from France removes HAL from the picture which had become a bone of contention. So IAF knows that these planes can arrive on time, which helps IAF with its force planning at the close of this decade.

GOI is pushing HAL to deliver on Tejas. Hope HAL is streamlining its production processes. I hope that LCA Tejas will start arriving on IAF bases at a steady pace from later part of this year. With MKI production stabilized, this give IAF decent visibility.

 

[mayfair]

People talk about Gripen but forget F-16. Why??

The same reason people do not talk about Mirage2000 either- a totally different class of aircraft, albeit one that flies on a single engine.

Moreover, F-16 and Mirage2000 are older platforms nearing the end of their operational life- Block52s, Dash 5/9S not withstanding.

Gripen is the closest it comes to Tejas as Mig-21 replacement (Junk fighter Bandar does not count).

Mig 35 has not even been operationalised by RusAF and there are no inclinations that it will be. Mig29K was bundled with the Gorshkov deal- take it or leave it. And IN is having a few teething troubles with it.

If Mig-35 is a possibility, it's more likely we may see Rafale-M be clubbed with the Rafale deal.

Notable and knowledgeable journalists such as Saurav Jha have tweeted that some lobbyists are pushing for Gripen and CISMOA with great vigour. There have been attempts to get MoD, IAF and HAL to accept SAAB participation to "improve the aerodynamics of LCA Mk2".

 

[sgarg]

My estimate is that India needs to buy around 50 fighters every year to both replace old ones as well as move towards 60+ squadrons in 2032.

The 50 fighters can come from three lines - MKI/Super-MKI/FGFA (14-15 per year), LCA (24-30 per year), Rafale/AMCA (10-12 per year)

The push should be to increase numbers of fighters delivered to IAF BUT with the required ramp up in support and overhaul infrastructure.

We should see production rate of 16 LCA-Tejas per year achieved within 3 years.

 

[SajeevJino]

Gripen is very very unlikely. But it makes sense for DM to keep the field open. A single phrase can cause so much buzz on the discussion forums.

People talk about Gripen but forget F-16. Why??

Since Navy is buying Mig-29K, there is always a possibility of Mig-35 finding its way to IAF despite its two engines. Who knows?

The dull discussion forums have suddenly become full of activity. The speculation will keep people busy.

look like peoples will talk about Tejas when there is a way of coming western Fighters to IAF, the same forgets Tejas if they have a chance to bring MiG or Su 35

It's clear Alternate to LCA is an Single engine Light Aircraft, so all the Russian Western lobby should keep distance, otherwise link me a good light fighter from abroad

 

[sgarg]

@mayfair, a lot of possibilities exist.

Let us see which ones materialize. One thing is clear now that Rafale will be bought in tranches, and under G-to-G contracts. So future purchases get tied to performance on the contract which is very good.

I am very happy that HAL has been removed from this deal. HAL must focus on LCA-Tejas and helicopters. HAL is using GOI as a moneybag while its inefficiency is never addressed.

HAL has too much on its plate which it is struggling to deliver.

 

[sgarg]

look like peoples will talk about Tejas when there is a way of coming western Fighters to IAF, the same forgets Tejas if they have a chance to bring MiG or Su 35

It's clear Alternate to LCA is an Single engine Light Aircraft, so all the Russian Western lobby should keep distance, otherwise link me a good light fighter from abroad

I think it is a question of filling a need. The issue IS NOT eastern or western. Why should MOD give preference to Western??

India will always be constrained by the money. Money is NOT INFINITE. India has often dealt with Russia despite Russia's financial problems, as Russia provided price points which India could afford.

 

[SajeevJino]

I think it is a question of filling a need. The issue IS NOT eastern or western. Why should MOD give preference to Western??

After the Vikramaditya deal, The Russians seems Indians as a Golden egg, not look as a Good partner

Should we buy Mig 35, when we have the same capability of MiG 29 UPG, (Except AESA ), Should we buy the Su 35 S when we have Su 30 MKI and Super Sukhoi MLU in pipeline, the same also ready to supplied to the Chinese Air force

The T 50 project again Jumped to 5-10 years, should we trust them anymore, even I sure There is no hope of our Money which we invested in FGFA project,

India will always be constrained by the money. Money is NOT INFINITE. India has often dealt with Russia despite Russia's financial problems, as Russia provided price points which India could afford.

Read the expert opinion, what they say from Tanks to Aircraft's, they were all against the Russian junks, once the generation was teaches the Youth Russia is everything for India, the statement still continues without analyzing the latest events

 

[sgarg]

After the Vikramaditya deal, The Russians seems Indians as a Golden egg, not look as a Good partner

Should we buy Mig 35, when we have the same capability of MiG 29 UPG, (Except AESA ), Should we buy the Su 35 S when we have Su 30 MKI and Super Sukhoi MLU in pipeline, the same also ready to supplied to the Chinese Air force

The T 50 project again Jumped to 5-10 years, should we trust them anymore, even I sure There is no hope of our Money which we invested in FGFA project,



Read the expert opinion, what they say from Tanks to Aircraft's, they were all against the Russian junks, once the generation was teaches the Youth Russia is everything for India, the statement still continues without analyzing the latest events

1. Why did IAF upgrade Mig-29 to UPG? Remember these are frontline squadrons, means IAF thinks that Mig-29UPG can withstand best that PAF can throw. So why not Mig-35 if Mig-29UPG is adequate. Mig-35 uses composites in body and better radar.

2. Su-35 has much lower RCS compared to Su-30. Plus it has a lot of commonality with Su-30, so it can be built on the Su-30 line at Nasik. The logic is self-evident.

3. T50 jumped 5-10 years?? Sources please.

 

[sgarg]

The expert opinion on Western fighters is built on massive propaganda in the Indian media. I have seen those full page newspaper ads for Gripen. Who are you fooling @SajeevJino. The Western dalals are visible to even blind.

 

[SajeevJino]

1. Why did IAF upgrade Mig-29 to UPG? Remember these are frontline squadrons, means IAF thinks that Mig-29UPG can withstand best that PAF can throw. So why not Mig-35 if Mig-29UPG is adequate. Mig-35 uses composites in body and better radar.

oh.. please MLU applied each and every aircraft whether it's on front line or Last line

we have enough number of MiG 29 in our Fleet, no need of Mig 35 and No space for them in IAF, lets keep the Aircraft in RuAF Hangers, no single IAF personnel shown interests in Mig 35

2. Su-35 has much lower RCS compared to Su-30. Plus it has a lot of commonality with Su-30, so it can be built on the Su-30 line at Nasik. The logic is self-evident.

so can we withdraw the Super sukhoi upgrade program .!! and buy another fresh Flanker from Russia for nothing .., why no words about Chini Su 35 deal

3. T50 jumped 5-10 years?? Sources please.

from here

DM Manohar parrikar exact quote with time:

2.28 fifth generation of-course we are working on but that may take another 10 -15 years to come through.(fgfa)

[video]https://youtu.be/kbLJcQltaE0?t=92[/video]

 

[SajeevJino]

The expert opinion on Western fighters is built on massive propaganda in the Indian media. I have seen those full page newspaper ads for Gripen. Who are you fooling @SajeevJino. The Western dalals are visible to even blind.

my opinions based on real combat situation, compared to Russian Fighters Western and Americans fighter scored higher kill and Air superiority

this is not from advertisement this is from Facts

 

[SajeevJino]

Air-to-air kills - Air-to-air losses - Losses to ground fire

F-16 Falcon 76-1-5
F-15A/C/I/S Eagle 102-0-0
F-15E Strike Eage 1-0-3
F/A-18 Hornet 2-1-1
F/A-18E/F/G Super Hornet 0-0-0
F-14 Tomcat 135-4-4
F-4 Phantom 306-106-545
F-5 Freedom Fighter/Tiger 25-23-30
Mirage 2000 1-0-1
Sea Harrier 21-0-3
Mirage F.1 24-43-20


MiG-21 240-501
MiG-23 25-102
MiG-25 8-8-1
MiG-29 6-18-1
Su-27 6-0-2


America - west - Russia

Air to Air Kill - 647 - 46 - 285
Air to Air Loses - 135 - 629 - 43
AD Loses - 587- 24 - no information

Thanks [WDW]Megaraptor - mp.net

 

[Punya Pratap]

Original numbers of mig 23/27 in IAF was more than 150 so 126 number was justifiable and required.
Buying 8 squadrons of these is enough to give 24X7 headaches to PLAF and PAF .

Ranger, In IAF ORBAT Rafale would have taken over the Strike role in place of Mig 27 where as Mig 23 are already replaced by MKI. We have plenty of Air Superiority fighters and the only Roles that are up for grabs in future are Strike (Mig 27 replacement) and Interceptor/Point Defense (Mig 21 replacement - Tejas)

I know there are lots of fancy OmniRole / MultiRole terms flying around but IAF doesnt actually believe in it ---- if it did then Su 30 MKI are Multirole enough to take on the role of Bombtrucks with minor upgrades to their Ground Attack capabilities. This again would raise the question >>> Why is there a need for an MMRCA when you can tweak the MKI's to play that role?? Why is the IAF insisting on a Light/Medium & Heavy Aircraft mix when no other nation has that and we are talking of nations who have fought more Air battles than IAF... the other IAF (Israel Air Force) with a higher threat perception has thrashed all oponents very well with a Light/Heavy mix only

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

MMRCA Comparison graphics from ToI . Brilliant and Informative .

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCmhCaHWEAI19YN.jpg

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/588178292596965376?utm_source=fb&fb_ref=Default&utm_content=588178292596965376&utm_campaign=writetake&utm_medium=fb

 

[Zebra]

The expert opinion on Western fighters is built on massive propaganda in the Indian media. I have seen those full page newspaper ads for Gripen. Who are you fooling @SajeevJino. The Western dalals are visible to even blind.

Sir, you are one of the pro Russian propagandist here on DFI. And you yourself being a propagandist, started to cry against India media now.

Anyway, let us see what deputy head of the military aviation programmes department at UAC have to say about US / Western military aircrafts........

http://theaviationist.com/2014/12/17/russia-produces-more-combat-planes/

As reported by Russian media outlets, in an interview with Ekho Moskvy radio station, Vladislav Goncharenko, deputy head of the military aviation programmes department at UAC (the a Russian holding which encompasses Irkut, Mikoyan, Sukhoi, Ilyushin, Tupolev, Beriev and Yakovlev), Moscow has surpassed the U.S. in the number of produced combat aircraft.

Whilst in 2013, UAC companies delivered 68 planes, 100 aircraft, 95 of those are combat planes for the Russian Air Force were produced and delivered in 2014.

Along with the production of more planes, UAC subsidiaries have carried out the modernization of existing aircraft and the development of new weapons systems, Goncharenko said.

Even though we don't know the corresponding U.S. figures, the number of new aircraft delivered to the front-line units of the Russian Air Force is a clear sign Moscow is strongly supporting its renascent military power.

For sure "quantity" does not always come with "quality" and, most probably, U.S. technology will still be ahead of Russian (or Chinese) one for several decades. However, it's impossible to foresee the outcome of a dogfight in which few, advanced American 6th Generation fighter jets, face outnumbering Russian 5th Generation warplanes...

 

[mayfair]

my opinions based on real combat situation, compared to Russian Fighters Western and Americans fighter scored higher kill and Air superiority

this is not from advertisement this is from Facts

That does not tell the complete picture. You must take into account factors such as
1. Who was flying those planes?
2. What were the ground level and other defenses available to the warring sides.
3. The quality and the training of the pilots involved.

I believe the major scenarios where we would find the Western and Soviet aircraft pitted against each other were

a. Vietnam war
b. The six-day-war and the Yom-Kippur war.
c. Gulf war 1991 and 2003.
d. Indo-Pak war 1971.

I think you may find that Indian Airforce flying the Soviet craft stuck many fingers up the ----- arses.

The Israeli's overwhelmed the Arab air forces flying Soviet MiGs and Sukhois

The coalition forces with their vastly superior arsenal, completely decimated the Iraqi airforce.

The USAF suffered heavy attrition against North Vietnamese in the Vietnam war.

 

[sgarg]

my opinions based on real combat situation, compared to Russian Fighters Western and Americans fighter scored higher kill and Air superiority

this is not from advertisement this is from Facts

You cannot apply gross numbers. You take examples of specific engagements where battle situation is similar to what can be obtained in South Asia.
And do not take individual plane but overall situation.

 

[SajeevJino]

You cannot apply gross numbers. You take examples of specific engagements where battle situation is similar to what can be obtained in South Asia.
And do not take individual plane but overall situation.

I don't know what you are trying to prove here, Just what I said Compared to Russian Planes, American and Westerns were better .

and @Casper says about you, and I know that from your first post here in DFI