Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Well the Rafale in India brings ability to deploy Meteor, Mica RF/IR, Hammers, Paveways in existing stock, Stormshadow. ISE version is not ready yet to eventually the Rafale in India will carry Spice Family.

Technically till ISE version arrives, the current MKI outguns the Rafale in terms of weapons flexibility, Brahmos being the centre piece. Meteor gives Rafale an edge in BVR and Hammer, Storm shadow provides some decent abilities but Rafale still has a long way to go in order to make it really effective in the Indian context. Ideally we need Garuda, Garuthma, Nirbhay, Guided HSLD, Astra, ARM to be fully operational in the Indian context.

Su30 MKI don't gave full satisfaction in february last year....
It seems that they were unable to find a fire solution to counter the pak fighters. The problem may not be the range of the AA missiles, but at the radar level. Some even say there was a centric network problem betwwen the different Su30 in the air at this special time. I have no more detail.

 

[Arbit]

Gents,

Can we please stop dissing the french here. Disagreement and factual rebuttals are alright, but insulting a partner country which has stood by us during sanctions and is providing us with important stuff without strings does not do.

 

[LDev]

Su30 MKI don't gave full satisfaction in february last year....
It seems that they were unable to find a fire solution to counter the pak fighters. The problem may not be the range of the AA missiles, but at the radar level. Some even say there was a centric network problem betwwen the different Su30 in the air at this special time. I have no more detail.

From what I can figure out, the PAF F-16s climbed to ~40,000 feet, went supersonic and then launched their AIM-120C5s without getting a target lock but with the IAF SU-30 position provided by a PAF AEWC and INS inputted into the missiles. The SU-30s were at about 20,000 feet. Because the missiles were launched at high altitude and at supersonic speed they could travel their maximum distance of 90km-105km. The SU-30s probably got their RWR warnings when the AMRAAM seekers went active, 20-25 km away, and took evasive measure.

As far as the SU-30s inability to fire, it could be the radar or the missiles or both. All open literature sources talk about how powerful the Bars radar is and that it has a huge range of 300 km. But it is also acknowledged by a lot of people that the RVV-AE missiles on the SU-30 did not have the same range as the AMRAAM, maybe the same in marketing brochures but less in real life. And you are correct, I also read about there being a problem in the data links between the different SU-30s in the air at that time. So who knows what the real limitation/problem was.

 

[Shiv sagar]

Well the Rafale in India brings ability to deploy Meteor, Mica RF/IR, Hammers, Paveways in existing stock, Stormshadow. ISE version is not ready yet to eventually the Rafale in India will carry Spice Family.

Technically till ISE version arrives, the current MKI outguns the Rafale in terms of weapons flexibility, Brahmos being the centre piece. Meteor gives Rafale an edge in BVR and Hammer, Storm shadow provides some decent abilities but Rafale still has a long way to go in order to make it really effective in the Indian context. Ideally we need Garuda, Garuthma, Nirbhay, Guided HSLD, Astra, ARM to be fully operational in the Indian context.

There is a reason behind Rafale purchase, MKI will do the duties it's assigned for and Rafale is not there to do it, we were in need of a platform which can get through enemy air defense and do the dirty work without letting them know we are infact behind the enemy lines. But on the other hand MKI is to intimidate, prevent other coming in and to Dogfight...that's my two cents

 

[Tang]

People don't realize why Rafale is better, It packs a punch(around 9000KG payload) of Su30MKI with RCS which is in fraction of Su's RCS. It has all the latest tech, be it AESA radar, IRST, HMDS, SPECTRA EW,Meteor etc.
So in a 1-1 scenario the other party such as J16 or Su35 or F16 won't be able to see it, while Rafale will see them first and shoot first.

Our Tejas varaint(MWF) with all this tech, will give very tough competition to Rafale F3R.

 

[Swiftfarts]

Ok man. Surely the rafales ew suite is bs. Nothing compared to the great and venerable F18 that only the usnavy apparently wants. F15EX more advanced than rafale?
I’m sure you know what you’re talking about. The fart in your name says it all. Lol.
For you ma man, case definitely closed.

I never said rafale EW suite or Rafale to be inferior, only inferior to American one. It's probably the best thing we bought and yes active cancellation against modern AESA having a very wide bandwidth is a myth , whether you like it or not. Law of physics work same everywhere.

 

[Haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars tried to read the last fifteen pages but

 

[Flying Dagger]

It had more to do with its huge RCS which made it easier to get a lock on for F-16 and they launched AIM 120 C5 at max range.

This disadvantage will remain unless Sukhoi gets powerful radar better ew suite and an engine upgrade to supply enough power. And a much needed SFDR. Then it can act as force mutliplier.

Because chance are porks will employ the same strategy to keep Su at bay by firing non sense and run like rats.

While IAF will try do that within 60--80 km NEZ of Meteor.

Tejas will have advantage due to its low RCS but it needs to have atleast Derby ER to use it at 50-70 km range. While a Meteor/SFDR like ability will be key.

Apart from that a potent GaN based ew suite and radar for electronic warfare and keeping it from being detected will also be needed .

From what I can figure out, the PAF F-16s climbed to ~40,000 feet, went supersonic and then launched their AIM-120C5s without getting a target lock but with the IAF SU-30 position provided by a PAF AEWC and INS inputted into the missiles. The SU-30s were at about 20,000 feet. Because the missiles were launched at high altitude and at supersonic speed they could travel their maximum distance of 90km-105km. The SU-30s probably got their RWR warnings when the AMRAAM seekers went active, 20-25 km away, and took evasive measure.

As far as the SU-30s inability to fire, it could be the radar or the missiles or both. All open literature sources talk about how powerful the Bars radar is and that it has a huge range of 300 km. But it is also acknowledged by a lot of people that the RVV-AE missiles on the SU-30 did not have the same range as the AMRAAM, maybe the same in marketing brochures but less in real life. And you are correct, I also read about there being a problem in the data links between the different SU-30s in the air at that time. So who knows what the real limitation/problem was.

 

[Swiftfarts]

It had more to do with its huge RCS which made it easier to get a lock on for F-16 and they launched AIM 120 C5 at max range.

This disadvantage will remain unless Sukhoi gets powerful radar better ew suite and an engine upgrade to supply enough power. And a much needed SFDR. Then it can act as force mutliplier.

Because chance are porks will employ the same strategy to keep Su at bay by firing non sense and run like rats.

While IAF will try do that within 60--80 km NEZ of Meteor.

Tejas will have advantage due to its low RCS but it needs to have atleast Derby ER to use it at 50-70 km range. While a Meteor/SFDR like ability will be key.

Apart from that a potent GaN based ew suite and radar for electronic warfare and keeping it from being detected will also be needed .

SU 30 need a french upgrade. Russian upgrade should be a no go , If they do not provide there top of the line product. Rafale is the best leverage we have.

 

[Flying Dagger]

SU 30 need a french upgrade. Russian upgrade should be a no go , If they do not provide there top of the line product. Rafale is the best leverage we have.

What French upgrade for Su ?

bhaiya chill. Russia is working on Su 57 once their radar and engine issue is sorted out. Sukhoi will be upgraded.

 

[Dessert Storm]

Well the Rafale in India brings ability to deploy Meteor, Mica RF/IR, Hammers, Paveways in existing stock, Stormshadow. ISE version is not ready yet to eventually the Rafale in India will carry Spice Family.

Technically till ISE version arrives, the current MKI outguns the Rafale in terms of weapons flexibility, Brahmos being the centre piece. Meteor gives Rafale an edge in BVR and Hammer, Storm shadow provides some decent abilities but Rafale still has a long way to go in order to make it really effective in the Indian context. Ideally we need Garuda, Garuthma, Nirbhay, Guided HSLD, Astra, ARM to be fully operational in the Indian context.

The IAF would not purchase a platform on some hunch. They would have studied its capabilities in the context of the mix it already operates or plans to operate with. No platform is a means to all ends in itself. Do look at what the platform would bring to the mix. If it maximises the potency of the mix, even though average standalone, I would go for it. Not for a moment saying Rafale is average. It definitely isn't. Cost-benefit obviously plays a role too.

 

[Spindrift]

What French upgrade for Su ?

chocolate croissant?

 

[Swiftfarts]

What French upgrade for Su ?

bhaiya chill. Russia is working on Su 57 once their radar and engine issue is sorted out. Sukhoi will be upgraded.

SU 57 is inferior to rafale on optronics, EW, radar front and even sensor fusion.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

SU 57 is inferior to rafale on optronics, EW, radar front and even sensor fusion.

Rightfully said. Su57 would be no close to rafale than the jf17 would be to F16’s.

What French upgrade for Su ?

bhaiya chill. Russia is working on Su 57 once their radar and engine issue is sorted out. Sukhoi will be upgraded.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Active cNc

I never said rafale EW suite or Rafale to be inferior, only inferior to American one. It's probably the best thing we bought and yes active cancellation against modern AESA having a very wide bandwidth is a myth , whether you like it or not. Law of physics work same everywhere.

EW suite is no way inferior to American F18s or F15EX. That’s a guarantee.
active canceling Is only a myth to an unlearned/untrained system. Active canceling is not and will not be a myth to a system that is exposed to emissions of a certain radar class. There are a variety of ways a radar can be tricked. When the source radar is commanded to maintain line of sight to target and store a track file of it, it does so if the target does not mess with the return signals. Modern radars can find out and know if the returned signals are messed with. Once you know all possible radar track emissions coming out of the source radar, you can actively transmit and spoof the original wavelength. This is why the rafales/mirages are known for snooping on all kinds of aircraft for decades to maintain extensive libraries for different class of radars. In fact there is a theory floating around that the only reason rafales participate in red flag exercises with the USAF is to snoop and suck up all electronic emissions in the air.
USAF did not even have a single aircraft close to the capability shown by rafale until the F35(potentially) was on the scene.

 

[Neptune]

SU 57 is inferior to rafale on optronics, EW, radar front and even sensor fusion.

SU 57 is inferior to rafale on optronics, EW, radar front and even sensor fusion.

How did you come to this conclusion when Sukhoi published zero details about all of the things you mentioned?

As for EW, the SU-57 EW suit is only equivalent to the F-35 in terms of sensor types. The Rafale lacks many of the those sensors. Russia has jammed various US aircraft over Syria including electronic warfare aircraft and India seems to have been replacing some Israeli jammers with Russian ones.

In terms of sensor fusion the SU-57 will be the first operational aircraft in the world to have an unanimous wingman or a type of artificial intelligence aircraft linked with the S-70. This aircraft will be able to push forward and hit targets and aircraft while the SU-57 stays out of harms way.

SU 30 need a french upgrade. Russian upgrade should be a no go , If they do not provide there top of the line product. Rafale is the best leverage we have.

Good luck with that, the French would have to newly develop and or modify dozens of avionics such as radar, mission computers, EW suit, engines ect. It would take billions of dollars and probably a decade or so. In other words completely unrealistic.

Su30 MKI don't gave full satisfaction in february last year....
It seems that they were unable to find a fire solution to counter the pak fighters. The problem may not be the range of the AA missiles, but at the radar level. Some even say there was a centric network problem betwwen the different Su30 in the air at this special time. I have no more detail.

This is because the F-16s had a numerical advantage, AWACS and altitude advantage where their AMRAAMs could exploit their full range while the SU-30mki operating at 15,000 feet could not. Russian SU-30s had a lock on Turkish F-16s over Syria for 5 minutes, so the entire argument about radars not locking is Pakistani propaganda and miss information.

 

[omaebakabaka]

This is because the F-16s had a numerical advantage, AWACS and altitude advantage where their AMRAAMs could exploit their full range while the SU-30mki operating at 15,000 feet could not. Russian SU-30s had a lock on Turkish F-16s over Syria for 5 minutes, so the entire argument about radars not locking is Pakistani propaganda and miss information.

This whole claim about f-16 and su-30mki sounds like bs....only source of this is paki claims

 

[Rohan Naik]

From what I can figure out, the PAF F-16s climbed to ~40,000 feet, went supersonic and then launched their AIM-120C5s without getting a target lock but with the IAF SU-30 position provided by a PAF AEWC and INS inputted into the missiles. The SU-30s were at about 20,000 feet. Because the missiles were launched at high altitude and at supersonic speed they could travel their maximum distance of 90km-105km. The SU-30s probably got their RWR warnings when the AMRAAM seekers went active, 20-25 km away, and took evasive measure.

As far as the SU-30s inability to fire, it could be the radar or the missiles or both. All open literature sources talk about how powerful the Bars radar is and that it has a huge range of 300 km. But it is also acknowledged by a lot of people that the RVV-AE missiles on the SU-30 did not have the same range as the AMRAAM, maybe the same in marketing brochures but less in real life. And you are correct, I also read about there being a problem in the data links between the different SU-30s in the air at that time. So who knows what the real limitation/problem was.

The AWACS should have been downed first place

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Gents,

Can we please stop dissing the french here. Disagreement and factual rebuttals are alright, but insulting a partner country which has stood by us during sanctions and is providing us with important stuff without strings does not do.

Finally. Hope some of the idiots in this forum can think that way.

 

[Arbit]

Finally. Hope some of the idiots in this forum can think that way.

It has become fashionable to diss the french on this forum and elsewhere as well. Rafale is more than the sum of its parts and is the pinnacle of french know-how in aviation.

Su or F 35 or Eurofighter could be better (arguably) than rafale but we don't know for sure. However, IAF bought it after due consideration and from all accounts, seem to be quite satisfied.
So what's the problem here I don't understand.

Anyway, lets focus on the topic at hand.