Know Your 'Rafale'

[Chandragupt Maurya]

The F-16 Block 70 is quite lethal albeit old but it's packed with very good 4.5 gen abilities. As per Rafale Pilot the F-16 is quite capable and the pilot should be vary. Not to mention, It can deploy the widest set of weapons known from (EU, US, Israeli, Japanese etc.) While it's not suited for India, it's a pretty good consideration for small/medium countries who want decent capability without breaking the bank.

Taiwan deal is a good example with 66 fighters for $8 Billion.

Taiwan secures bargain price for F-16Vs - Asia Times

Taiwan has officially appropriated NT$250 billion (US$8 billion) for buying 66 F-16V fighter jets from the US, and the money to pay for the single largest

asiatimes.com

it’s not as cheap as it should be given that it’s a 40 years old design, but it’s a simple aircraft and can be produced in huge numbers so it gives advantage in war of attrition

 

[Drsomnath999]

Two French Rafales land in the Greek Cypriot sector
According to information from the Politis newspaper, as part of the agreement concluded between France and the Greek Cypriot sector which entered into force on August 1, two Rafale and a C-130 arrived at the Andreas Papandreu air base in Paphos.
08/12/2020 ~ 08/12/2020

Two French Rafale type combat aircraft as well as a C-130 transport aircraft landed in the Greek Cypriot sector.
According to information from the Politis newspaper, under the agreement between France and the Greek Cypriot sector entered into force on 1 st August, two Rafale and a C-130 arrived at Andreas Papandreou airbase in Paphos.
The Rafales, which will stay in Paphos for a few days, will carry out patrols in the so-called exclusive economic zone unilaterally proclaimed by the Greek Cypriot sector in the Mediterranean and will cooperate with the French naval forces in the region.
In addition, a joint France-Greek Cypriot sector air exercise should take place in September. Other countries could also join the exercise.
According to news published in the Greek Cypriot press on August 6, the Defense Cooperation Agreement, which was signed in 2017, entered into force at the beginning of August.

TRT Francais

TRT Français - Infos et actualité internationale, politique, économie, culture, société, idées et multimédias.

www.trt.net.tr

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Gripen is a dead fighter for india as we have banned the import of aircrafts which are in LCA category.
And indo-Sweden relationship is not great they have been supplying awacs and multiple different system to porkis.

 

[Drsomnath999]

there is option for 36 more Rafales but we need to negotiate harder with Frenchies for integration of Meteor and Scalp on Mirage 2000s. Frenchies are sucking us dry with this current deal because they know their weapons systems are the USP.

Yes it is possible to integrate meteor with mirage 2000 .But french know very well if they do it then future rafale order might have an impact.Why i am telling this?

-Mirage 2000 H 's rdy 2 radar upgraded has better range r than rdy 1 around 160km approx slight higher than also.it may not be aesa radar like sophisticated .But it can work.

New Radar

-Plus meteor missile launched from mirage 2000H has better kinematic range theoritically than rafale due
to high ceiling height and top speed

-Cost of integration is deliberately increased to dissuade them to go for more additional rafales indirectly

IAF's Mirage 2000 jets unlikely to get Meteor missiles, makers cite high integration cost

The 36 Rafales that India has already bought from France will come equipped with the BVR Meteor missiles.

theprint.in

CHEERS



-

 

[LDev]

Yes it is possible to integrate meteor with mirage 2000 .But french know very well if they do it then future rafale order might have an impact.Why i am telling this?

-Mirage 2000 H 's rdy 2 radar upgraded has better range r than rdy 1 around 160km approx slight higher than also.it may not be aesa radar like sophisticated .But it can work.

New Radar

-Plus meteor missile launched from mirage 2000H has better kinematic range theoritically than rafale due
to high ceiling height and top speed

-Cost of integration is deliberately increased to dissuade them to go for more additional rafales indirectly

IAF's Mirage 2000 jets unlikely to get Meteor missiles, makers cite high integration cost

The 36 Rafales that India has already bought from France will come equipped with the BVR Meteor missiles.

theprint.in

CHEERS



-

If increasing Rafale sales was the reason for holding out on Meteor integration with the Mirage 2000, then MBDA would not have offered to integrate the Meteor with the LCA Mk1A provided HAL use any European radar which had already been integrated with the Meteor. As such when HAL asked for bids for supply of an AESA radar for the LCA Mk1A, Thales responded with a bid. That bid was with a variant of the RBE-2 AA Rafale radar. That bid was rejected by HAL supposedly on cost grounds as Elta had a lower bid with the EL-2052 which has ultimately been chosen. The Elta-2052 was also chosen by HAL to upgrade the Jaguars. If on the other hand the Thales radar had been chosen, the prospective 83 LCA Mk1As would have been armed with the Meteor.

Equipping the Tejas Mark 1A with Elta’s ELM-2052 radar will ensure the fighter never carries the world-beating Meteor “beyond visual range” (BVR) air-to-air missile. MBDA, the European consortium that builds the Meteor, has repeatedly told the IAF that it would only fit that missile onto a fighter with a European airborne radar. Choosing an Elta AESA radar for the Tejas Mark 1A, therefore, rules out the Meteor and, with it, any hope that the IAF with buy the Mark 1A in significant numbers.

Israeli radar means Tejas aircraft won't have world-class Meteor missile

 

[Drsomnath999]

If increasing Rafale sales was the reason for holding out on Meteor integration with the Mirage 2000, then MBDA would not have offered to integrate the Meteor with the LCA Mk1A provided HAL use any European radar which had already been integrated with the Meteor. As such when HAL asked for bids for supply of an AESA radar for the LCA Mk1A, Thales responded with a bid. That bid was with a variant of the RBE-2 AA Rafale radar. That bid was rejected by HAL supposedly on cost grounds as Elta had a lower bid with the EL-2052 which has ultimately been chosen. The Elta-2052 was also chosen by HAL to upgrade the Jaguars. If on the other hand the Thales radar had been chosen, the prospective 83 LCA Mk1As would have been armed with the Meteor.

Israeli radar means Tejas aircraft won't have world-class Meteor missile

This post makes no sense what I posted before.either you didn't understand my point or by posting this thing you are comparing apples with
orange.

Mirage 2000H upgrade with meteor is an add-on
feature which iaf insisted after balakot ,plus mirage 2000 H is already inducted thing with fully operational unit with nuclear warfare capability .
By 2021 end iaf plans to induct 2squadrons of rafale.we have around 50 mirage with nuclear capability with advanced ew suite .Theoritacally mirage 2000 can be integrated with meteor if it had been done ,then mirage 2000 could have been almost if not totally equal in terms of capabilty with rafale but not in terms of technology and sophistication.Iaf chosed mirage 2000 for balakot strike not su 30 mki for stealth and advanced ew capabilty only.so having meteor missile like capabilty will have increased mirage capabilty by leaps and bounds .


As rafale is very costly platform ,plus you never know other advanced platforms are in the making for IAF .so I don't feel the need for buying extra rafale by iaf if mirage 2000 integration with meteor would have happen.rather the French were insisting for mica Ng . upgradation in future.

LCA mark 1 and su 30 mki are both different class of planes one light and one super
heavy class.both were planned by iaf to be inducted with meteor.but the source you posted itself says only meteor will be integrated with European radar only.

So french won't share the source codes for security reasons.

CHEERS

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

This post makes no sense what I posted before.either you didn't understand my point or by posting this thing you are comparing apples with
orange.

Mirage 2000H upgrade with meteor is an add-on
feature which iaf insisted after balakot ,plus mirage 2000 H is already inducted thing with fully operational unit with nuclear warfare capability .
By 2021 end iaf plans to induct 2squadrons of rafale.we have around 50 mirage with nuclear capability with advanced ew suite .Theoritacally mirage 2000 can be integrated with meteor if it had been done ,then mirage 2000 could have been almost if not totally equal in terms of capabilty with rafale but not in terms of technology and sophistication.Iaf chosed mirage 2000 for balakot strike not su 30 mki for stealth and advanced ew capabilty only.so having meteor missile like capabilty will have increased mirage capabilty by leaps and bounds .


As rafale is very costly platform ,plus you never know other advanced platforms are in the making for IAF .so I don't feel the need for buying extra rafale by iaf if mirage 2000 integration would have happen.rather the French were insisting for mica Ng . upgradation in future.

LCA mark 1 and su 30 mki are both different class of planes one light and one super
heavy class.both were planned by iaf to be inducted with meteor.but the source you posted itself says only meteor will be integrated with European radar only.

So french won't share the source codes for security reasons.

CHEERS

Imagine if Su30mki gets the UTTAM AESA Radars as proposed by DRDO in Super sukhoi program

 

[BON PLAN]

there is option for 36 more Rafales but we need to negotiate harder with Frenchies for integration of Meteor and Scalp on Mirage 2000s. Frenchies are sucking us dry with this current deal because they know their weapons systems are the USP.

SCALP is already integrated on M2000.
It's not the case of Meteor, because this missile only fit under the 2 hard points of wings, ie only one space for a 1200 liters external tanks : Too few.
Add to that the lack of radar range versus RBE2 AESA... (ie the Gripen C, with Meteor, can(t exploit it fully....)

 

[BON PLAN]

The output of an F35 engine is very different than the output of the lca engine( aka F16s engine).

LCA uses a F18 engine. Not a F16 one.

 

[BON PLAN]

Taiwan deal is a good example with 66 fighters for $8 Billion.

Why a so low cost? Because few newer spare parts, no training, no new weapons (because legacy F16 is already in the force) and no base accomodation.

It will be thee same thing with a new batch of Rafale for India (as the 12 in option to Qatar,1.1 billion for 12 birds).

 

[BON PLAN]

if mirage 2000 integration with meteor would have happen

Nearly no way. Too costly for just one customer (India).
The integration of such a high ranged wapon and multi target capacity, with data link is complex... It takes years for Gripen, EF and Rafale to do so.

 

[BON PLAN]

Imagine if Su30mki gets the UTTAM AESA Radars as proposed by DRDO in Super sukhoi program

A very good isea.
But are the russians OK for that? not so sure. And you need their agreement.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes it is possible to integrate meteor with mirage 2000 .But french know very well if they do it then future rafale order might have an impact.Why i am telling this?

-Mirage 2000 H 's rdy 2 radar upgraded has better range r than rdy 1 around 160km approx slight higher than also.it may not be aesa radar like sophisticated .But it can work.

New Radar

-Plus meteor missile launched from mirage 2000H has better kinematic range theoritically than rafale due
to high ceiling height and top speed

-Cost of integration is deliberately increased to dissuade them to go for more additional rafales indirectly

IAF's Mirage 2000 jets unlikely to get Meteor missiles, makers cite high integration cost

The 36 Rafales that India has already bought from France will come equipped with the BVR Meteor missiles.

theprint.in

CHEERS



-

The Indian M2000-5 don't use RDY2.... but RDY3.

RDY - Radartutorial

www.radartutorial.eu

 

[scatterStorm]

Bon Plan - Why didnt French go for 2 way data link with Meteor ? Surely it isnt technical - it might be more philosphical.

It could be that it can be jammed to deviate the missile to other path.

Example, the US drone which the Iranian brought down to scavenge its tech to Russians used 2 way datalink.

1. The datalink was snooped on.
2. It was jammed so that the drone couldn't communicate with the handlers.
3. New Gps coordinates were uploaded to it, to override the default Gps coordinates.
4. Jet simply used its onboard computers to chart the course to default flight path if its being attacked i.e. its home base.
5. Since, defaults were overridden, it came down to a location of there choosing.

Could be because jamming is used to do other attacks to the missile such as new course guidance, possibly opening doors to such kind of situation like the example presented above.

 

[scatterStorm]

To be honnest, these battlefields were low intensity : no or low potent opponent air force, low to medium SAM threat.
A fight against India and Pak or mainly China will be another history...

Solid copy, true test of times for Rafael ahead.

 

[BON PLAN]

-Cost of integration is deliberately increased to dissuade them to go for more additional rafales indirectly

Don't forget the HAMMER case : the integration was ordered on M2000. It fails due to aerodynamical issues causing too high costs.

 

[fire starter]

 

[Drsomnath999]

Nearly no way. Too costly for just one customer (India).
The integration of such a high ranged wapon and multi target capacity, with data link is complex... It takes years for Gripen, EF and Rafale to do so.

where there is will there is a way .Beleive it or not IAF was always given hope before hand that mirage 2000H upgradaton,if india opted for french upgrade compare to israel then integration of future french weapons will be easier and cheaper . that means Meteor was a just like carrot tied to a stick infront of IAF.Even if the french wont admit that they have said to integrate it with Mirage 2000 in future but if they had tried they could have achieved it.

yes definetly meteor effectiveness on mirage 2000 wont be the same like rafale .But metoer itself is very potent missile .

The Indian M2000-5 don't use RDY2.... but RDY3.

RDY - Radartutorial

www.radartutorial.eu

you are horribly wrong on that

Mirage 2000 used due to high success rate against long-range targets

News:Mirage 2000 used due to high success rate against long-range targets

www.thehindubusinessline.com

Heart of the IAF Mirage-2000 Upgrade - Livefist

At the heart of theRs 9,640 crore upgrade of 51 IAF Mirages-2000s by a consortium of Dassault, Thales and HAL, is the Thales RDY-2 advanced multimode pulse doppler radar. Will be posting much more details and specifications on the Mirage-2000 upgrade that is about to be signed. Stay tuned.

www.livefistdefence.com

The Mirage 2000 Upgrade: What Makes India's Fighter Jet Better

16 years ago, I flew onboard Mirage 2000s of the Indian Air Force over Tiger Hill within days of India handing Pakistan a humiliating defeat in the Kargil war. It remains, what I consider, the biggest exclusive in my career as a journalist.

www.ndtv.com

Don't forget the HAMMER case : the integration was ordered on M2000. It fails due to aerodynamical issues causing too high costs.

But capabillity of metoer and difference it would make in aerial warfare cant it compared with cost of integration of hammer on mirage 2000 . Plus hammer role can be subsituted by cheaper variants.
Metoer has no substitute at the moment

CHEERS

 

[LDev]

where there is will there is a way .Beleive it or not IAF was always given hope before hand that mirage 2000H upgradaton,if india opted for french upgrade compare to israel then integration of future french weapons will be easier and cheaper . that means Meteor was a just like carrot tied to a stick infront of IAF.Even if the french wont admit that they have said to integrate it with Mirage 2000 in future but if they had tried they could have achieved it.

yes definetly meteor effectiveness on mirage 2000 wont be the same like rafale .But metoer itself is very potent missile .



you are horribly wrong on that

Mirage 2000 used due to high success rate against long-range targets

News:Mirage 2000 used due to high success rate against long-range targets

www.thehindubusinessline.com

Heart of the IAF Mirage-2000 Upgrade - Livefist

At the heart of theRs 9,640 crore upgrade of 51 IAF Mirages-2000s by a consortium of Dassault, Thales and HAL, is the Thales RDY-2 advanced multimode pulse doppler radar. Will be posting much more details and specifications on the Mirage-2000 upgrade that is about to be signed. Stay tuned.

www.livefistdefence.com

The Mirage 2000 Upgrade: What Makes India's Fighter Jet Better

16 years ago, I flew onboard Mirage 2000s of the Indian Air Force over Tiger Hill within days of India handing Pakistan a humiliating defeat in the Kargil war. It remains, what I consider, the biggest exclusive in my career as a journalist.

www.ndtv.com

But capabillity of metoer and difference it would make in aerial warfare cant it compared with cost of integration of hammer on mirage 2000 . Plus hammer role can be subsituted by cheaper variants.
Metoer has no substitute at the moment

CHEERS

Does it really make economic sense to do a one off integration of the Meteor on the RDY-3 of the Mirage 2000 when HAL was not willing to do it on new build LCA Mk1A aircraft? The Mirage 2000 airframe is 35 years old, the RDY-3 willl not enable the Meteor to be used to it's full potential, no other airforce which flies the Mirage 2000 is integrating the Meteor which means that the IAF will have to bear the full cost of integration which will take years. For pointers on cost, just look at the cost of integrating the ELBIT HMD&C on the Rafale, which is an IAF exclusive. For a hint on the time that could be taken, consider that even for integrating the Meteor with the APG-81 F-35 radar will take a total of 5 years, the program started last year and the first RAF F-35Bs will be operational with the Meteor in 2024. So, all in all, it made no sense to integrate the Meteor. What the IAF sensibly did was upgrade to the Mica which is being done by other airforces including the French Air Force and the UAE Air Force. By 2026 when the Mica NG is likely to be operational it may make sense to figure out whether to try and integrate that AAM with the Mirage 2000. The NG will have a dual radar homing/IIR seeker and have the same form factor as the existing Mica.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Tejas MK2 or maybe the later batches of MK1A with indigenous UTTAM AESA Radars won’t even need meteor if meteor range doesn’t improve to 200+ km because by that time our own Astra MK2 and maybe sfdr will come