Know Your 'Rafale'

Assassin 2.0

New Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2019
Messages
6,087
Likes
30,705
Country flag
We wld have got the same weapon package with grippen at half the cost and local manufacturing in mmrca 1 . Same thing stands at mmrca 2 . Any idea why SAAB was rejected ?. We cld have 72 grippen with that price if this article is right .


Lesser amount of TOT Saab itself uses multiple components which belong to different OEMS and SAAB and they don't have any Engine tot to offer.
Gripen falls under Tejas category single engine aircraft will always find difficulty in every performing role of twin engine aircraft.
And overall Rafale is much better product and we have much closer defence ties with france compared to sweden GOI india is also not interested in sweden subs which are offered for p-75i project. Sweden also sold awacs and other equipments to Pakistan.
 
Last edited:

Kumata

New Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
8,941
Likes
34,605
We wld have got the same weapon package with grippen at half the cost and local manufacturing in mmrca 1 . Same thing stands at mmrca 2 . Any idea why SAAB was rejected ?. We cld have 72 grippen with that price if this article is right .


requirement was for a double engine fighter.. if i remember correctly..

Moreover india's relations with sweden is a mystery.. with french we have a proven track record of excellent relations..

it;s not just the weapon package but many other factors at play ... remember their awacs sales to porkis...
 

IndiaRising

New Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
2,788
Likes
9,593
Country flag
IAF prepares for PM Modi, French Defence Minister at Rafale induction ceremony Published August 21, 2020 | By admin SOURCE: ET The air force if planning for a high-profile Rafale induction ceremony which may include Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French defence minister Florence Parly at the air force station in Ambala where the first five aircraft have been stationed. Sources said that preparations are on for a formal ceremony that is likely to take place in the coming weeks though a final date has not been decided on. The five Rafale jets are being integrated into the air force ecosystem and have already proven their mettle with successful weapons firing at a test range after arrival. French defence minister Parly, who had earlier pledged support for India as the China crisis unfolded and had requested for a bilateral visit, is likely to be part of the formal ceremony at Ambala, sources said. While the first batch of Rafales arrived at Ambala on July 29, the air force had said that a final induction ceremony is planned in the second half of August and that efforts are focused on operationalisation of the aircraft at the earliest. The French side is also likely to raise the possibility of a larger order for the Rafale fighter jets under the Make in India initiative. Sources said that a proposal for creating a new production line for Rafale fighter jets in India could be on the table. Given new foreign direct investment (FDI) relaxations that will allow foreign companies to have 74% stake in defence entities, the French side is believed to have an interest in investing in setting up a new production line, if a sufficient order book is available. While India has ordered 36 Rafale jets as an off the shelf purchase, sources said that an economically viable production line could be set up if there is an assured order for at least 100 more aircraft, besides options to cater to the export market. As reported by ET earlier, the assessment is that additional orders for the Rafale jets could cost considerably lesser than the Euro 7.8 billion paid for the first batch of 36 aircraft as fixed costs for training, creating infrastructure and making India-specific enhancements have been taken care of. The air force is also progressing on a medium fighter jet acquisition programme under the strategic partnership (SP) model to acquire 114 aircraft. The competitive process—with suitors from the US, Russia, France and Sweden—is yet to fully kick off but the air force is keen to ensure that an entire transfer of technology takes place as part of the Make in India initiative

😲🤯🤯🤯
French DM won’t come to India during a pandemic unless they are ready to sign a new deal or atleast make an announcement that new deal for Rafales will be signed in future
 

Lancer

Bana
New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2019
Messages
1,447
Likes
5,876
Country flag
no local production unless we order a huge number. Dassault doesn’t trust HAL anyways. Most likely we will see another 2 squadrons being signed or atleast announcement for that
Yup, would require big numbers - which *was* the original plan. I don't blame Dassault for not trusting HAL/not guaranteeing their work - I wouldn't either. They can work with a private player of their choice.
 

Indrajit

New Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
4,242
Likes
16,090
Country flag
Yup, would require big numbers - which *was* the original plan. I don't blame Dassault for not trusting HAL/not guaranteeing their work - I wouldn't either. They can work with a private player of their choice.
Dassault has no interest in manufacturing in India. They picked Anil Ambani for a reason, the guy is short of money and would go along with their plan of essentially doing screwdrivergiri( if that) and allow the French to get their money and add a premium for local manufacturing of which Anil Ambani would get some. All the crap about HAL is just that. Crappy excuses. They don’t pick HAL, they don’t pick Tata, they don’t pick L&T, they don’t pick Mahindra. They pick a bankrupt guy. Go figure.
 

Lancer

Bana
New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2019
Messages
1,447
Likes
5,876
Country flag
Dassault has no interest in manufacturing in India. They picked Anil Ambani for a reason, the guy is short of money and would go along with their plan of essentially doing screwdrivergiri( if that) and allow the French to get their money and add a premium for local manufacturing of which Anil Ambani would get some. All the crap about HAL is just that. Crappy excuses. They don’t pick HAL, they don’t pick Tata, they don’t pick L&T, they don’t pick Mahindra. They pick a bankrupt guy. Go figure.
If it's really just a bluff, it's an easy bluff to call. Take HAL and Ambani off the table, let them take their pick of private partner 🤷‍♂️

Then up to them whether they want a big deal or not.
 

Drsomnath999

lord of 32 teeth
New Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2011
Messages
1,273
Likes
1,376
Country flag
Rafale: the F4 standard is revealed
June 2, 2020
10 min read

Page 1 of 2


In January 2019, when the first Rafale to the F3R standard arrived in the Air Force, the Minister of the Armed Forces took advantage of a visit to the Dassault Aviation plant in Mérignac to officially launch the development of a new standard. major, the F4. Enough to allow the aircraft to increase its operational performance, but also to remain competitive in the years to come, especially against the Lockheed Martin F ‑ 35.
On the F3R standard, the latest to date for the Rafale, efforts have mainly focused on updating the software and improving the sensors and armaments: AESA antenna for the RBE2 radar; integration of the Meteor long-range air-to-air missile; new TALIOS laser designation pod (Targeting Long-range Identification Optronic System); integration of GBU ‑ 16 and AASM Bk.3 bombs. With the F4 standard, the idea this time is to focus on issues of connectivity and network combat, which implies profound changes in both software and hardware. And, for the first time, the perfect technical interoperability of the Rafale fleet could well be undermined with an F4.1 standard for the existing Rafale and an F4.2 for the 58 aircraft still to be delivered to France. While all the devices will receive software updates and will be able to integrate the various modernized modular elements, such as the AESA radar or a new OSF (Frontal Sector Optronics), only F4.2 devices will receive all the hardware modifications of the standard. F4, especially in electronic warfare. A priori, these aircraft should also have precautionary measures for deeper modernizations in the context of subsequent standards, or a possible mid-life renovation of the Rafale.


Connectivity, engagement and availability
The first risk-lifting studies on the Rafale F4 standard began in 2017, the scope of the standard being determined the following year for a development launch in January 2019. At present, if the ambitions of the DGA and the GIE Rafale International on this new standard are clearly defined, all the details of the configuration would not have been fixed. As always, compromises will have to be made between operational needs, respect for the budgetary envelope and industrial imperatives. The open architecture of the Rafale should allow an incremental implementation of the new standard, with certain functionalities available from 2022, the validation of the complete standard not taking place until 2024 for delivery to the forces in 2025.
• interconnectivity;
• device support and availability;
• improvement of sensors;
• modernization of armaments.
In these different fields, many innovations have appeared in recent years. Thus, the computer components of modern weapon systems today increasingly rely on artificial intelligence for massive data processing, which has become essential for managing the complexity of the battlefield, but also for improving tools. predictive maintenance. Likewise, advances in applied chemistry have made it possible to improve missile propulsion, or to make the use of gallium nitride (GaN) affordable, which improves the performance of the AESA antennas of the Rafale's self-protection system. , the famous SPECTRA.
Communication and connectivity
If the Rafale were to have only one flaw, it would probably be its radio. Without being catastrophic, it seems quite far from current standards in terms of signal strength and clarity. With the F4 standard, the Rafale will finally be equipped with a brand new digital communication system which should improve pilots' situational awareness, including in electronically contested environments:
• the devices will thus receive CONTACT software radio, the new standard of the French armies allowing the various actors present in the theater to share a common operational image;
• a new intra-patrol tactical data link, discreet and directional, should also integrate the Rafale, alongside the current L-16. This link will be based on three-dimensional waveforms (FO3D) generated by digital synthesis;
• the Rafales should be equipped, at the bottom of the drift, with a military-grade, encrypted, discreet and SYRACUSE IV compatible SATCOM, which could be derived from the SAKaR unveiled by Thales in November 2018;
• the management of these communication sets, in addition to the existing data links, should be entrusted to a new generation of communication servers, possibly derived from Thales NEXENs, making it possible to simplify the task of the crew while ensuring encryption and cyber data protection.
All of this equipment should make it possible to create real communication networks within a Rafale patrol, but also, via SATCOM and CONTACT, throughout an entire theater of operations. Each pilot will thus have access to an extended tactical situation allowing long-range network combat, even in complex environments. The Rafale can also serve as a radio relay between ground troops and metropolitan decision-making centers, or follow the evolution of a tactical situation live from the start of their transit phase. In many respects, this is the real raison d'être of the F4 standard, which allows the Rafale to catch up with its connectivity delay on the F-35, mentioned in 2017 by the chief of staff of the Air Force in front of the National Assembly.
Sensors and interface
In line with the F3R standard, the F4 should bring improvements in terms of detection. For the AESA RBE2 radar, the modifications will mainly be software with the addition of a GMTI (Ground Moving Target Indicator) mode for the detection and tracking of mobile land targets, as well as an ultra-HD mode for imaging. long range radar. Mode interleaving should be further improved, in part thanks to the continued increase in computing power offered by the Rafale's open architecture, which should be completely modernized and made more resistant to cyber attacks. If the GaN-based AESA technology today seems too expensive to be applied to the antenna of an RBE2, it should be applied to those of the SPECTRA system, responsible in particular for wiretapping and jamming. SPECTRA should thus gain in frequency agility, angular precision, detection speed and transmission power, while operating over a wider range of frequencies, against aerial or surface contact. In terms of sensors, the great "novelty" should relate to the return of an IR channel on board the OSF, a capability abandoned a few years ago, but which was requested in particular by the French army. Indian air.
In terms of interface, the choice was made not to upset the existing ergonomics. In the cockpit, the side screens have been slightly enlarged and equipped with a new touch interface. The great ergonomic novelty should therefore be a helmet display, planned at the start of the program, but canceled twice in the past. Although the system is eagerly awaited by the pilots, all the obstacles have not yet been overcome. Indeed, the financial and operational logic pushes towards the choice of an Israeli solution already integrated on the Rafale export, while Thales logically militates for a national solution.
Armaments
After the integration of the Meteor into the F3R, the Rafale F4 armaments panel should expand further:
• the SCALP EG missile should be reconditioned by MBDA in order to deal with obsolescence and cell aging. The first refurbished SCALPs will be delivered next year and will serve until the early 2030s;
• AASM armament should evolve further, with the appearance of a simplified Bk.4, devoid of propulsion and optimized for close air support. A 1000 kg version of the AASM should also be integrated into the Rafale in the coming years, replacing the GBU ‑ 24;
• but the great innovation in terms of armament will be the MICA ‑ NG which will complete the Meteor on the medium range. If it maintains the aerodynamics, mass and balance of the MICA, the MICA ‑ NG will be a highly efficient missile. The radar-guided version will have a more powerful AESA antenna, but also more resistant to jamming. The MICA ‑ IR infrared seeker will be entitled to a new matrix sensor that is more sensitive and capable of better discriminating against adverse decoys. Finally, the miniaturization of the electronic compartment allows the transport of more propellant for the engine, which has a double impulse capacity. Enough to increase the MICA's range by 30%, while allowing it to keep energy in reserve to maneuver during the interception phase.
It should be noted that the integration of laser-guided rockets and the development of a new nuclear missile are the subject of separate programs and are therefore not taken into account in the context of the F4 standard.

Support and availability

As with every standard change, significant efforts have been made in terms of Maintenance in Operational Condition (MCO) and use costs, this time with a more extensive integration of the latest digital technologies. Today, the Harpagon technical restitution and logistics management system already makes it possible to do without a large part of periodic inspections on the Rafale, in particular by improving the remedial treatment of breakdowns and by making it possible to better anticipate preventive maintenance. The F3R standard already integrates diagnostic assistance functions using the data collected by the hundreds of sensors distributed throughout the cell of the device.
However, improving algorithms and computing power will make it possible to multiply the collection and use of massive data after each Rafale flight. Enough to set up, in the years to come, a real forecast maintenance which will further reduce the cost of operational support and improve availability ... if all the spare parts are not monopolized in OPEX, which is another thing. problem.

With the F4 standard, the entire logistics chain will therefore be updated in order to prepare for the gradual generalization of forecast maintenance methods. The Harpagon system will undergo a new development, miniaturized sensors will be integrated into the MICA ‑ NGs and the M88 reactor will receive a modernization of its FADECs, with new computers providing more data processing power. For Safran Aircraft Engines, massive collection of technical data is essential to improve engine efficiency, reduce maintenance costs, but also prepare for the future, in this case the motorization of the Franco-German SCAF.



As we can see, the successive standards of the Rafale bring their share of incremental modernizations, and the F4 is no exception to this rule. If, externally, the new standard does not seem to induce such significant changes as the F3R which saw the arrival of the RBE2 AESA and the Meteor, the evolution is nevertheless much more impressive on the numerical level, promising a major operational breakthrough in terms of tactical situational awareness, network-centric combat, electronic warfare, cyber protection and passive detection. Better still, the F4 is now preparing for the future evolutions of the Rafale, whether it concerns predictive maintenance, multistatic detection, precautionary measures for future plate radars distributed over the airframe of the aircraft or the improvement of electronic warfare capabilities, including offensives. Enough to allow the Rafale to remain a formidable adversary in the decades to come, even in the face of stealth planes.

 

The Maverick

New Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2020
Messages
99
Likes
221
Country flag
Pakistanis CLAIMNG including former ACM sohail in vedio interview
That PAF will always have look first , Shoot first GAP over IAF
i think they mean block 3 Thunder with PL12 /15 have 200km BVR range thus out ranging in theory the meteore missles on a rafale
They simply dont rate russian BVRS ( i dont either)
 

LDev

New Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
410
Likes
1,577
Country flag
If it's really just a bluff, it's an easy bluff to call. Take HAL and Ambani off the table, let them take their pick of private partner 🤷‍♂️

Then up to them whether they want a big deal or not.
The only thing that will motivate Dassault to manufacture locally is if the number of
 

LDev

New Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
410
Likes
1,577
Country flag
Pakistanis CLAIMNG including former ACM sohail in vedio interview
That PAF will always have look first , Shoot first GAP over IAF
i think they mean block 3 Thunder with PL12 /15 have 200km BVR range thus out ranging in theory the meteore missles on a rafale
They simply dont rate russian BVRS ( i dont either)
I think that it is reasonably certain that China has supplied the PL-15 to the PAF integrated with the JF-17 which has a Chinese AESA radar in it's Block 3 configuration. Also the PAF alongwith the PLAAF are likely to have a common tactical data link enabling the open architecture Saab Erieye or the PLAAF KJ-200/2000 provide guidance to the PL-15 until it acquires the target.

While the display of the PL-15 by the the PLAAF has worried the USAF enough to spur the development of longer range AAMs such as the AIM-260 and LREW, it is entirely possible that the IAF will be the first air force to actually face the PL-15 in a war scenario.
 

LDev

New Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
410
Likes
1,577
Country flag
The only thing that will motivate Dassault to manufacture locally is if the number of
The only thing that will motivate Dassault to manufacture locally in India is numbers. A minimum of 114 or thereabouts i.e. they will manufacture locally if they are the winners of the MMRCA 2.0 competition.
 

Tang

New Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
551
Likes
1,357
Country flag
Pakistanis CLAIMNG including former ACM sohail in vedio interview
That PAF will always have look first , Shoot first GAP over IAF
i think they mean block 3 Thunder with PL12 /15 have 200km BVR range thus out ranging in theory the meteore missles on a rafale
They simply dont rate russian BVRS ( i dont either)
Nice joke by ACM,
Like the bluff that they shot a Su30mki down or like how no starfighter was down in 1965 or 1971
Don't believe these jokers
 

The Maverick

New Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2020
Messages
99
Likes
221
Country flag
Nice joke by ACM,
Like the bluff that they shot a Su30mki down or like how no starfighter was down in 1965 or 1971
Don't believe these jokers
Listen I can only go by what happened in feb 2019
Ie their amraam s outranged all we had
The pl15 is 50% greater in range
We are seriously lacking in bvr range data linking not to mention awacs
They feel they are overall better networked better prepared then we are
And I believe it's not all bravado we are lacking in some areas even against Pakistan
Highly embarrassing we have 5 fold their resources
Our air force is not well.run compared to our navy I have known this for some time
 

Rohan Naik

New Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2015
Messages
445
Likes
1,162
Country flag
Listen I can only go by what happened in feb 2019
Ie their amraam s outranged all we had
The pl15 is 50% greater in range
We are seriously lacking in bvr range data linking not to mention awacs
They feel they are overall better networked better prepared then we are
And I believe it's not all bravado we are lacking in some areas even against Pakistan
Highly embarrassing we have 5 fold their resources
Our air force is not well.run compared to our navy I have known this for some time
Classic answer
 

Neptune

New Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2019
Messages
1,188
Likes
6,171
Country flag
Listen I can only go by what happened in feb 2019
Ie their amraam s outranged all we had
The pl15 is 50% greater in range
We are seriously lacking in bvr range data linking not to mention awacs
They feel they are overall better networked better prepared then we are
And I believe it's not all bravado we are lacking in some areas even against Pakistan
Highly embarrassing we have 5 fold their resources
Our air force is not well.run compared to our navy I have known this for some time

“Pl-15 is 50% greater in range” and then everyone woke up from their dreams. The Chinese make moronic claims about the WS-13, WS-15, PL-15 and so on. The missile does not have the dimensions or engines to achieve those ranges.

In February the PAF assigned F-16’s (8 of them) to take on two SU-30MKIs knowing one was low on fuel. If the JF-17 was as effective as the Pakistanis claim then why did the PAF not assign them to challenge MKIs? Why did JF-17s and their touted missiles not engage any Mirages or MiG-21s? Instead the PAF were using F-16s to fire missiles at MKIs and drop bombs on Indian soil where as JF-17s did nothing.

Pakistanis and Chinese act like JF-17s operated under different rules of engagement or that they simply chose not to engage the IAF. The reality is that if F-16 were firing missiles and dropping bombs then the JF-17s would naturally do the same thing. If nothing else then at least the PAF could use the opportunity to engage the IAF and claim the JF-17 was battle proven but that did not happen. Pakistanis were so desperate to prove JF-17 prowess that they claimed a JF-17 (which wasn’t even in the area) shot down an MKI which never happened. The PAF further risked embargoes by using F-16s offensively when they could have just used JF-17 if they were as effective or better.

The JF-17 was worthless despite what the PAF and China claims. Their missile probably didn’t have the range and it’s not crazy to think that the JF-17s radars were jammed. Either way things didn’t work out for the JF-17 despite having AWACS and a large numerical advantage.
 

fire starter

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
9,609
Likes
84,139
Country flag
Listen I can only go by what happened in feb 2019
Ie their amraam s outranged all we had
The pl15 is 50% greater in range
We are seriously lacking in bvr range data linking not to mention awacs
They feel they are overall better networked better prepared then we are
And I believe it's not all bravado we are lacking in some areas even against Pakistan
Highly embarrassing we have 5 fold their resources
Our air force is not well.run compared to our navy I have known this for some time
Have you ever heard of IACCS.
 

Articles

Top