Know Your 'Rafale'

[Flying Dagger]

Migs are dead platform for now....Russian Airforce has not purchased any mig in over a decade other than prototypes. Their only chance is to come up with new interceptor to replace 31's. If Indians are smart they would negotiate smartly to make them sell tech and purchase them in numbers to replace 21's, jags, 27s and mirages too over time. It is a fine aircraft.

The way I see it:

Light fighters: Tejas (there is no option for India other than getting our own aircraft industry in place)
Interceptors: Mig 29/35 (future highspeed mig-41) -- good road map in theory
Heavy fighters: Sukhoi/Rafale (we need western tech to keep edge in tactics vs Chinese who are also Russian tech consumers)

The post is related to cost of Mirage upgrade vs Mig 29 UPG cost .

 

[omaebakabaka]

The post is related to cost of Mirage upgrade vs Mig 29 UPG cost .

Ok, I thought IAF was told that Mirage airframes exceeded the rated hours already on avg, I doubt if they will do any major upgrades.

 

[BON PLAN]

Not true the costlier upgrade were approved due to kickbacks and milking the situation. We had this discussion earlier too and there is no point in going through it again.

As far as reliability is concerned the upgraded Mig 29s have almost same availability rate as Mirage 2k with lesser spending to maintain them annually one of the reason One additional Sqd will join in next year.

Even Taiwan confirm that Mirage are pretty costly to maintain in comparison to F-16s. Here you wish to apply the same 1 Mirage = 2F-16 logic?

While in A2A it outperforms Mirage , in strike role also it wasn't bad either in last year exercise by IAF.

Kickbacks.... prove it.

Almost the same.... ie always inferior.

Taiwan : The taiwanese didn't use the proper washing technic due to salt and high humidity according to DA process. It costs them some money, this is why they asserted, some long years ago that it is costlier to maintain.

Mig 29 outperforms M2000? Where? When? M2000-5 radar is superior to Mig29 ones. Why do you think india is keen to adapt MICA on SU30 ?
And about air to ground, you probably forget Kargil.....

 

[omaebakabaka]

Mig 29 outperforms M2000? Where? When? M2000-5 radar is superior to Mig29 ones. Why do you think india is keen to adapt MICA on SU30 ?

I would be careful in dissing SU-30's or even Migs, one of the reasons why India does that is due to China purchasing same equipment. They know all pros and cons about Russian planes hence puts us at a disadvantage in theory. Probably the main reason tbh....

 

[LDev]

Why do you think india is keen to adapt MICA on SU30 ?

It is Mica IR that the IAF wants on the SU-30, not Mica RF.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Kickbacks.... prove it.

Almost the same.... ie always inferior.

Taiwan : The taiwanese didn't use the proper washing technic due to salt and high humidity according to DA process. It costs them some money, this is why they asserted, some long years ago that it is costlier to maintain.

Mig 29 outperforms M2000? Where? When? M2000-5 radar is superior to Mig29 ones. Why do you think india is keen to adapt MICA on SU30 ?
And about air to ground, you probably forget Kargil.....

1. Both have 75-80% availability rate for IAF so nothing inferior abt it.

2. I remember Kargil where Mirage needed cover of Mig 29s to perform strike role with laser guided bombs for which Israel provided litening pod .

3. MICA IR just like ASRAAM or python was fired from Su to make sure interoperability of diff weapons.

but Mirage 2k had russian R-73s as it's main weapon in IAF.

in anycase have nothing do with the aircraft.

4. The humidity didn't effect F 16s just Mirage?

Even IAF didn't used good washing technique ?

5. Ex Air marshal Harish Masand shared his experience with Mig 29s and Mirage 2k (before the upgrade) when they were newly inducted. There are lots of int available where how easily Mirage were outperformed by Mig 29s and the planned induction of more Mirage was cancelled.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

French defence minister likely to visit India next month to attend Rafale induction ceremony Published August 29, 2020 | By admin SOURCE: PTI French Defence Minister Florence Parly is likely to visit India around September 10 to attend a ceremony to formally induct five Rafale fighter jets into the Indian Air Force (IAF) and hold talks with her Indian counterpart Rajnath Singh to further boost strategic ties, people familiar with the development said on Friday. They said the IAF has proposed September 10 to hold the ceremony, adding both the Indian and French sides are in touch with each other for the possible visit by Parly. The first batch of five Rafale combat jets, manufactured by French aerospace major Dassault Aviation, arrived at the Ambala air base on July 29. The jets are yet to be formally inducted into the IAF. Sources said the Defence Minister, Chief of Defence Staff Gen Bipin Rawat and the entire top military brass of the country will attend the event at the Ambala air base. In a telephonic conversation with Singh on June 2, Parly had conveyed her readiness to visit India to further explore ways to enhance bilateral defence ties. India had signed an inter-governmental agreement with France in September 2016 for procurement of 36 Rafale fighter jets at a cost of around Rs 58,000 crore. The Rafale jet is capable of carrying a range of potent weapons. European missile maker MBDA’s Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile and Scalp cruise missile will be the mainstay of the weapons package of the Rafale jets. Meteor is a next generation beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) designed to revolutionise air-to-air combat. The weapon has been developed by MBDA to combat common threats facing the UK, Germany, Italy, France, Spain and Sweden. Out of the 36 Rafale jets, 30 will be fighter jets and six will be trainers. The trainer jets will be twin-seater and they will have almost all the features of the fighter jets. While the first squadron of the Rafale jets will be stationed at the Ambala air base, the second one will be based at the Hasimara base in West Bengal

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/french-defence-min...xt-month-to-attend-rafale-induction-ceremony/ .

 

[omaebakabaka]

Read somewhere that French DM will visit only if a deal for more birds is going to be signed?

 

[BON PLAN]

It is Mica IR that the IAF wants on the SU-30, not Mica RF.

Russian are the specialist of IR seeker medium range AAM......

 

[omaebakabaka]

Russian are the specialist of IR seeker medium range AAM......

Even then.....I can think of two reasons and risk of repeating myself on one....

1. Russia supplies 2nd grade seekers for exports vs their domestic.....so inferior to some other weaponry sported by our foes
2. IAF assumes that China has all the codes to jam the Russian exported weaponry and by transitive Pakis too....so the effort to reduce risk of that proactively and preemptively

 

[BON PLAN]

1. Both have 75-80% availability rate for IAF so nothing inferior abt it.

2. I remember Kargil where Mirage needed cover of Mig 29s to perform strike role with laser guided bombs for which Israel provided litening pod .

3. MICA IR just like ASRAAM or python was fired from Su to make sure interoperability of diff weapons.

but Mirage 2k had russian R-73s as it's main weapon in IAF.

in anycase have nothing do with the aircraft.

4. The humidity didn't effect F 16s just Mirage?

Even IAF didn't used good washing technique ?

5. Ex Air marshal Harish Masand shared his experience with Mig 29s and Mirage 2k (before the upgrade) when they were newly inducted. There are lots of int available where how easily Mirage were outperformed by Mig 29s and the planned induction of more Mirage was cancelled.

Mig 29 with 75% availaibility.......... a russian wet dream.

Kargil : M2000 of these time (ie not "-5") can't drop LGB and medium range AAM simultaeously.... but mig29 were not able to drop LGB... the sole solution was M2000, a plane not made to do so.

Taiwanese ground people didn't use the modus operandi requested by Dassault.... but may be respect the one of LM. It is to note that the first Rafale M suffered from the same problem at the beginning in the french navy.

They canceled M2000 purchase (to not ordered far more Mig29) and regret it now.... Just imagine the IAF state with 150 M2000-5...

 

[BON PLAN]

Read somewhere that French DM will visit only if a deal for more birds is going to be signed?

NO. No link. It's an friendly visit.

 

[omaebakabaka]

NO. No link. It's an friendly visit.

A bit unusual and unnecessary for an induction ceremony, am suspecting at least some discussions towards next batch of purchase on the table if not signed, may be am being too optimistic

 

[Sridhar_TN]

1. Both have 75-80% availability rate for IAF so nothing inferior abt it.

2. I remember Kargil where Mirage needed cover of Mig 29s to perform strike role with laser guided bombs for which Israel provided litening pod .

3. MICA IR just like ASRAAM or python was fired from Su to make sure interoperability of diff weapons.

but Mirage 2k had russian R-73s as it's main weapon in IAF.

in anycase have nothing do with the aircraft.

4. The humidity didn't effect F 16s just Mirage?

Even IAF didn't used good washing technique ?

5. Ex Air marshal Harish Masand shared his experience with Mig 29s and Mirage 2k (before the upgrade) when they were newly inducted. There are lots of int available where how easily Mirage were outperformed by Mig 29s and the planned induction of more Mirage was cancelled.

For all it’s pros and cons, the sad reality is Russian aircraft availability is always piss poor. Only because they short India on everything. From engine spares to ammo spares.
It is high time, India move away from Russian products. Upgrade the su30 to super standards, induct large amount of rafales with guaranteed technology transfer, and use the tech transfer to deploy tejas and amca as mainstay fighters.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Mig 29 with 75% availaibility.......... a russian wet dream.

Kargil : M2000 of these time (ie not "-5") can't drop LGB and medium range AAM simultaeously.... but mig29 were not able to drop LGB... the sole solution was M2000, a plane not made to do so.

Taiwanese ground people didn't use the modus operandi requested by Dassault.... but may be respect the one of LM. It is to note that the first Rafale M suffered from the same problem at the beginning in the french navy.

They canceled M2000 purchase (to not ordered far more Mig29) and regret it now.... Just imagine the IAF state with 150 M2000-5...

Even Su have 50-60% availability and Mig 29s of IAF have 75-80% in IAF. May be a wet dream for French.

Kargil They didn't had to do that simultaneously there were other Mirages available too but not used as they were incapable to do so.

And the solution was provided by Israel on a plane meant for strike role in IAF.

Mirage 2k were cancelled for more Mig 29s , 78 were bought plus later 45 more for IN overall100 of these will serve in IAF and 45 for IN.

For price of 150 Mirages I can also see 300+ Mig 29s too.

So back to the fact Mirage upgrade was over priced and that is the case with every french product.

It's not just Taiwan but India too. No one used the right washing technique ?

 

[omaebakabaka]

Even Su have 50-60% availability and Mig 29s of IAF have 75-80% in IAF. May be a wet dream for French.

Kargil They didn't had to do that simultaneously there were other Mirages available too but not used as they were incapable to do so.

And the solution was provided by Israel on a plane meant for strike role in IAF.

Mirage 2k were cancelled for more Mig 29s , 78 were bought plus later 45 more for IN overall100 of these will serve in IAF and 45 for IN.

For price of 150 Mirages I can also see 300+ Mig 29s too.

So back to the fact Mirage upgrade was over priced and that is the case with every french product.

It's not just Taiwan but India too. No one used the right washing technique ?

Even the US availability is not close to 80% with all homegrown fleet, unless its war time 80% is too high for any fleet. It is true from 90's till 2010, Russian supply chain was disastrous, only since their modernization post Georgia conflict in 2008 and their rearmament program dealt with the problems but they lost lot of business from their biggest and time tested client. As of now, mig is not worth to invest in unless no other option.

IAF underperformed in Kargil conflict and repeated again in post Balakot....how come we never hear about IAF exercises involving bombing runs at heights? IAF need to get off the mindset that country will accept initial loses....especially fighting a foe that is tiny in every aspect vs India.

Modern Russian equipment is as good or even exceeds western stuff in some respects but Russia is selling it to our foe China and therefore India will and should hedge even at cost premium.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Even then.....I can think of two reasons and risk of repeating myself on one....

1. Russia supplies 2nd grade seekers for exports vs their domestic.....so inferior to some other weaponry sported by our foes
2. IAF assumes that China has all the codes to jam the Russian exported weaponry and by transitive Pakis too....so the effort to reduce risk of that proactively and preemptively

The one we use are outdated ones as Russia has moved on to R-74 and K-74 mk2. Ours is an old stock mostly procured through Ukraine route just like spare parts etc as they cost lesser than russian.

2nd point somewhat true.

We have used their IR missiles like R-73 as standard weapon for Mirage 2k for which they did objected may be that's why latest aren't being offered. Not sure what's going on behind the curtains.

Even the US availability is not close to 80% with all homegrown fleet, unless its war time 80% is too high for any fleet. It is true from 90's till 2010, Russian supply chain was disastrous, only since their modernization post Georgia conflict in 2008 and their rearmament program dealt with the problems but they lost lot of business from their biggest and time tested client. As of now, mig is not worth to invest in unless no other option.

IAF underperformed in Kargil conflict and repeated again in post Balakot....how come we never hear about IAF exercises involving bombing runs at heights? IAF need to get off the mindset that country will accept initial loses....especially fighting a foe that is tiny in every aspect vs India.

Modern Russian equipment is as good or even exceeds western stuff in some respects but Russia is selling it to our foe China and therefore India will and should hedge even at cost premium.

1. USAF has a huge fleet to maintain consisting of stealth jets F-15s etc and they have 70+ availability rate. In that availability rate if light fighters like F-16s remain high. Same with IAF mig 29 / Mirage have high availability rate 75-80% around. While Sukhoi have 50-60% around.

Due to small size of IAF we keep availability rate as high as possible. Infact there is an agreement in between Dassault and IAF where they will make sure the availability rate of Rafale remains high 75-80% a maintenance contract was also inserted in the deal for 5 yrs .

Rest we were still on price of Mig 29 (15mn) and Mirage (45 mn around with no engine replacement) upgrades.

Regarding IAF in Kargil they did well. Mig 29 s armed with BVR missiles kept the whole PAF inside their line and let Mirage to do the strike in comfort using laser guided bombs.

Balakot: They did well .

Aerial fights aren't computer game in real and there will be ups and downs.

Bison taking down F-16 s is actually a good performance. Rest is part and parcel of a war.

 

[fire starter]

 

[Flying Dagger]

Good for them

Hopefully they'll take down some Turkish jets to send a stern msg to Erdogan's Caliphate now.

 

[omaebakabaka]

The one we use are outdated ones as Russia has moved on to R-74 and K-74 mk2. Ours is an old stock mostly procured through Ukraine route just like spare parts etc as they cost lesser than russian.

Sounds like a corruption scheme or acting when ass is on fire like buying all we can as of now (like more migs)....where are forecasts and projections....looks like no Operations Research in IAF.....also Russia has vast stocks and still use R-73's

We have used their IR missiles like R-73 as standard weapon for Mirage 2k for which they did objected may be that's why latest aren't being offered. Not sure what's going on behind the curtains.

Beggars can't be choosers, replacing Russia with Israel is no better. Only homegrown is the option.

1. USAF has a huge fleet to maintain consisting of stealth jets F-15s etc and they have 70+ availability rate. In that availability rate if light fighters like F-16s remain high. Same with IAF mig 29 / Mirage have high availability rate 75-80% around. While Sukhoi have 50-60% around.

If someone quotes 70% in peacetime then its certainly 20% less than that at a minimum....actually recent US fleet readiness is appaling whether its navy or airforce and accidents are happening ever more frequently. So many just occured in Japan recently.....

Due to small size of IAF we keep availability rate as high as possible. Infact there is an agreement in between Dassault and IAF where they will make sure the availability rate of Rafale remains high 75-80% a maintenance contract was also inserted in the deal for 5 yrs .

Irrelevant, avg french made aircraft in Indian fleet is over 5 years apart from Rafale. Russian jets are even worse. Actually India's fleet is not small. We are like 4th largest airforce.

Rest we were still on price of Mig 29 (15mn) and Mirage (45 mn around with no engine replacement) upgrades

Does the migs include new engines?

Regarding IAF in Kargil they did well. Mig 29 s armed with BVR missiles kept the whole PAF inside their line and let Mirage to do the strike in comfort using laser guided bombs.

No, we lost a pilot and couple of planes if I remember and if IAF was so successful it would not have been so brutal for the ARMY to lose so many brave young soldiers. IAF could not even do a proper job in Pathankot insurgency episode....am sorry I am being critical

Balakot: They did well .

Only partially, lost a pilot, a heli and PR. I do not think this is a successful operation but not a complete failure in the context of PAF to IAF and not the actual terrorist camps which is a success on many respects. IAF needs to be on offence.....same nonsense for decades. India is not Russia to sit with defence strategy.

Aerial fights aren't computer game in real and there will be ups and downs.
Bison taking down F-16 s is actually a good performance. Rest is part and parcel of a war.

I am on the fence on the F-16, we will know in a decade I guess but even if it did....post strike should have been planned better with offensive posture and unfortunate heli loss