Know Your 'Rafale'

BON PLAN

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Lmao France didn't even agree to integrate meteor with mirage upgrade which cost as much as an lca mk1a and had a full French radar. You think they will give it up for lca??
Are you so sure? Maybe the bill was just too important for so few birds...
The integration of a weapon on a jet is not an easy task, and not without surprises ! last exemple on M2000 : french air forces wanted to equip its M2000 with Hammer bombs. The integration was ended before the end because the store separation was not healthy. Maybe the case of the Meteor?
Or just a french attempt to move India into a greater Rafale order ?
 

Flying Dagger

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The 5000 crore figure is here .
Well thanks I know ruble is down But even then How much for a Sukhoi.. 5000 crore is a throwaway if it is true since the article doesn't have mentioned clearly what it is worth.

30 mn for Sukhoi 20 for mig ?

360 + 420 780 mn that will be more that 5000 crore.

Damn buy more of them in that case or even Su 57. It's a throwaway.
 

WolfPack86

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Rafale to land in India on 27 July, will be combat-ready early as France diverts missiles
Rafale jets will take off from Istres and fly to French airbase in UAE before landing in Ambala. French air refuellers will carry out 2 mid-air refuelling of the fighters till UAE.

New Delhi: Amid India’s ongoing border standoff with China, at least four Rafale fighter jets are now scheduled to land in Ambala on 27 July, and will be ready for combat earlier than expected as the French have diverted an initial lot of cutting edge missiles meant for its own air force to India, ThePrint has learnt.


“The date worked out between India and France is July 27 for the delivery of the aircraft. Four aircraft will come for sure while an attempt is being made to ensure that a total of six jets come,” said a source.


According to sources, the jets can be deployed for combat quicker than anticipated as France has diverted some of the game-changing missiles — Meteor and SCALP — meant for its own air force to the Rafale jets for India. Originally, this was supposed to happen months after the delivery of the fighter jets.



ThePrint had first reported on 20 March that the delivery of the Rafale fighter jets could get delayed from its original May date due to the Covid-19 pandemic. On 14 April, ThePrint reported that the delivery will take place only in July.

Will fly via UAE, with two mid-air refuellers

According to the plan, the Rafale jets will take off from Istres in France and fly to the French airbase in Al Dhafra near Abu Dhabi in the UAE. After a night halt, the jets will fly to Ambala in Haryana, where the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s 17 Squadron ‘Golden Arrows’ is based.

“The fighters will be flown by Indian pilots and will fly straight for 10 hours (Al Dhafra). It will have a halt for the night and next day fly to Ambala,” another source told ThePrint.



The initial plan was that the aircraft would arrive after layovers in multiple countries. However, the Covid pandemic meant that the pilots would have to undergo quarantine at each base, said the sources.


It has now been decided that two French Airbus mid-air refuellers will fly with the jets. There would be at least two rounds of mid-air refuelling on the way to UAE, the sources said.


Indian mid-air refuellers will take charge the next day for the journey to Ambala. Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots are now getting trained in France for refuelling. This was not part of the original training, said the sources.

France diverts missiles to IAF

The contract India and France signed in September 2016 had said the Rafale delivery would take place in May 2020, and the main weapons package would arrive in October, said the sources.


However, following a request, France has diverted the missiles made for its air force to India. These have started arriving already.


These missiles include the beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile, Meteor, which has the capability to hit targets over 120 km away, and the long range air-to-ground stand-off cruise missile, SCALP, which can strike targets 600 km away.



“This means that the Rafale could be combat-ready much earlier than expected. The Meteor and SCALP have already been integrated with the Rafales which are coming in,” another source said.


The integration of Meteor into the Rafale weapons system means an Indian Rafale would be able to shoot down an enemy aircraft over 100 km away without even crossing the Indian air space.

The 5.1-metre-long SCALP can be carried in either one missile or two missiles configuration on the Rafale. Its inclusion means Indian Rafales would not have to cross the Indian airspace to hit a target that is about 600 km in enemy territory.
 

Immanuel

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As I thought, IAF will use terrain to fly as low as possible, possible the lowest flight in IAF history. Hemraj, Samyukta systems will provide cover, 2 Rafaels for EW to cover the Jags, Mirage and MKIs at full radar silence.

Might also be the case that we never fire up our radars, to give returns. That why IAF is practicing at AP. :daru:
Easiest way to kill the S-400 would be the Brahmos, why risk hundreds of million worth of aircraft, ammo fuel. Each Rafale costs 90 million, IAF's Brahmos-A cost 840 million for 200 missiles i.e $4.2 million per piece. You could fire 20 missiles and still be cheaper, safer and not put aircraft for which we already have a shortage in harms way.

I would estimate that 15-20 Brahmos missiles along with some other missiles like Prahaar, Pinaka MK-2 (if the S-400 Fire unit is within range) would allow for the S-400 Battalion to be saturated and destroyed. Brahmos can cruise at 10m in LO-LO-LO trajectory out to a distance of 120km+ Take out the FCRs, Big Bird radar and Ground control system and S-400 is done for.

Of course the IAF should be able to use aircraft too for such mission, no harm practice till you bleed but in a real scenario we shouldn't be risk our aircraft and let the various missiles do the talking.
 

IndianHawk

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I am not saying what I think.. I am telling what they discussed with IAF.

You can have your hypothesis but a statement is a statement whether they back out in future is a different thing.

Tejas with 300+ jets eventually and other Indian jets like AMCA ORCA etc is billions of dollar deal for Meteor if it gets in. They aren't going to lose it. Infact UK is quite willing to do it.

For Mirage , it might have reduced the Rafale order perhaps or not make much economic sense as they said.

Mirage doesn't have a Radar to do full justice to Meteor either these were the concern raised.

But with Tejas it may get it if we need and have an indian radar. They infact offered to buy an European radar but we chose the Elta. That is the reason Tejas didn't got it. But at the time IAF didn't intervene and HAL goes with L1 bidder.
Meteor equipped lca mk1a and mwf also hurt sale of European jets. They will do it when they have no other option as sfdr comes closer to maturity in next 4-5 years not before that.

Who would buy a gripen NG at 150 million dollars when lca mk1a with meteor could do the same job at 50-60 million dollars.

Whatever rafale number we have planned would go down surely if mk1a gets meteor . And mwf will eat rafales pie too if it gets meteor from day one.
 

IndianHawk

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Are you so sure? Maybe the bill was just too important for so few birds...
The integration of a weapon on a jet is not an easy task, and not without surprises ! last exemple on M2000 : french air forces wanted to equip its M2000 with Hammer bombs. The integration was ended before the end because the store separation was not healthy. Maybe the case of the Meteor?
Or just a french attempt to move India into a greater Rafale order ?
Meteor is a key capability . We would have gladly paid for it.

We already paid 50 million of each mirage upgrade .
Even if meteor integration costed 200 Million that's still just 4 million more to each jet but the capability is too deadly for next twenty years . Plus both rafale and mirage could use same missile saving costs on inventory , maintainance.

The argument that mirage radar can't utilise full potential of mirage is more fitting . But still mirage upg could have used meteor well within it's nez and that's still more deadly than anything Pakistan or china has.

All in all it was to save market for french jets. As sfdr nears completion we will see all those conditions melt away.
 

IndianHawk

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Easiest way to kill the S-400 would be the Brahmos, why risk hundreds of million worth of aircraft, ammo fuel. Each Rafale costs 90 million, IAF's Brahmos-A cost 840 million for 200 missiles i.e $4.2 million per piece. You could fire 20 missiles and still be cheaper, safer and not put aircraft for which we already have a shortage in harms way.

I would estimate that 15-20 Brahmos missiles along with some other missiles like Prahaar, Pinaka MK-2 (if the S-400 Fire unit is within range) would allow for the S-400 Battalion to be saturated and destroyed. Brahmos can cruise at 10m in LO-LO-LO trajectory out to a distance of 120km+ Take out the FCRs, Big Bird radar and Ground control system and S-400 is done for.

Of course the IAF should be able to use aircraft too for such mission, no harm practice till you bleed but in a real scenario we shouldn't be risk our aircraft and let the various missiles do the talking.
Scalp and bramhos air combo should be unstoppable for any air defense on this planet.

Also ground based bramhos can be launched now from 450 km away at the least and maybe 600km.
 

BON PLAN

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Easiest way to kill the S-400 would be the Brahmos, why risk hundreds of million worth of aircraft, ammo fuel. Each Rafale costs 90 million, IAF's Brahmos-A cost 840 million for 200 missiles i.e $4.2 million per piece. You could fire 20 missiles and still be cheaper, safer and not put aircraft for which we already have a shortage in harms way.

I would estimate that 15-20 Brahmos missiles along with some other missiles like Prahaar, Pinaka MK-2 (if the S-400 Fire unit is within range) would allow for the S-400 Battalion to be saturated and destroyed. Brahmos can cruise at 10m in LO-LO-LO trajectory out to a distance of 120km+ Take out the FCRs, Big Bird radar and Ground control system and S-400 is done for.

Of course the IAF should be able to use aircraft too for such mission, no harm practice till you bleed but in a real scenario we shouldn't be risk our aircraft and let the various missiles do the talking.
You're right but ....
But you need to have a very precise information of the location of the differents pieces of the S400 battery. It's not so easy. Specially with a missile without air to ground seeker.
 

BON PLAN

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Meteor is a key capability . We would have gladly paid for it.

We already paid 50 million of each mirage upgrade .
Even if meteor integration costed 200 Million that's still just 4 million more to each jet but the capability is too deadly for next twenty years . Plus both rafale and mirage could use same missile saving costs on inventory , maintainance.

The argument that mirage radar can't utilise full potential of mirage is more fitting . But still mirage upg could have used meteor well within it's nez and that's still more deadly than anything Pakistan or china has.

All in all it was to save market for french jets. As sfdr nears completion we will see all those conditions melt away.
Agree.
Same with AASM Hammer bomb : dedicated to Rafale....
 

Flying Dagger

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Meteor equipped lca mk1a and mwf also hurt sale of European jets. They will do it when they have no other option as sfdr comes closer to maturity in next 4-5 years not before that.

Who would buy a gripen NG at 150 million dollars when lca mk1a with meteor could do the same job at 50-60 million dollars.

Whatever rafale number we have planned would go down surely if mk1a gets meteor . And mwf will eat rafales pie too if it gets meteor from day one.
Gripen NG with GaNS based AESA radar for 150 mn dollar where did you get that? do share here.

Tejas with UTTAM AESA will touch 60+ around and will definitely give bangs for its bucks. But I won't be surprised if cost goes higher in 2027-28 period than projected now.


Also who do you think will buy Tejas from HAL India other than IAF who is already committed ? Their sale will hardly affected by Tejas.

We had the option to buy European radar and get meteor but we ourselves turned it down first. So better ask HAL and IAF abt it.

You must know the French have great standards for production and quality. It's small in size due to lower defence budget and political clout to sell , but still they are able to compete with likes of American aerospace industry. If we had the production here there is lot to learn and might be a missed opportunity.

The no. of Rafale we will buy have already come down due to delay and cost. Their no. won't be affected by Tejas as in next 15 years we will need more than 20 Sqd to keep 35 Sqd strength so there is 3-4 Sqd worth need for Rafale.
 

Tactical Frog

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Rafale boost for IAF! Fighter jets to land in India on July 27; to join Golden Arrows


Confirms that an undisclosed number of Scalp cruise missiles and Meteor missiles have been delivered at the Ambala Base storage facility. At least three twin-seaters incoming.
 

IndianHawk

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Gripen NG with GaNS based AESA radar for 150 mn dollar where did you get that? do share here.

Tejas with UTTAM AESA will touch 60+ around and will definitely give bangs for its bucks. But I won't be surprised if cost goes higher in 2027-28 period than projected now.


Also who do you think will buy Tejas from HAL India other than IAF who is already committed ? Their sale will hardly affected by Tejas.

We had the option to buy European radar and get meteor but we ourselves turned it down first. So better ask HAL and IAF abt it.

You must know the French have great standards for production and quality. It's small in size due to lower defence budget and political clout to sell , but still they are able to compete with likes of American aerospace industry. If we had the production here there is lot to learn and might be a missed opportunity.

The no. of Rafale we will buy have already come down due to delay and cost. Their no. won't be affected by Tejas as in next 15 years we will need more than 20 Sqd to keep 35 Sqd strength so there is 3-4 Sqd worth need for Rafale.

Brazil gripen E/ng deal .

4.68 B for 36 jets=== 130 million. Now add inflation.

GaN based ew suit is not a big deal really it's being added to our su30mki already and will definitely be in mwf.

Tejas /mwf Maybe more costly by 2027 but gripen / rafale would be even more costlier. Inflation works for both.

If Tejas gets meteor it will have long list of clients world over. No other jet can provide such a lethal capability that cheap and reliably. That's why it won't get meteor anytime soon.

Mbda never promised to integrate meteor to lca no matter what radar is chosen.

Rafale numbers will go down if mwf gets meteor or sfdr comes faster.
 

no smoking

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Brahmos can cruise at 10m in LO-LO-LO trajectory out to a distance of 120km+ Take out the FCRs, Big Bird radar and Ground control system and S-400 is done for.
Unfortunately, on our planet, currently there is no such technology to allow any machine to fly 10m above the ground at 3 Mach speed. The minimum 10m height for Russian supersonic cruise missile is only working in the most ideal environment: most peaceful ocean surface. Even American tomahawk with around 0.8 Mach has to keep the altitude above 50m (often over 100m).

By the way: S-400 is not for front line defense, so you won't even see their radars/sensors within 400-600km. And most of the radars are set on the truck and are able to run off within 3-5 minutes.
 

Kumata

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By the way: S-400 is not for front line defense, so you won't even see their radars/sensors within 400-600km. And most of the radars are set on the truck and are able to run off within 3-5 minutes.
S-400 would be typically deployed on front end to scan whole enemy sky... if they are kept 400-600 km away from border.. whats the use of it ... U Need it to see incoming hostile jets not your own jets...

and for a missile about to hit you at Mach 2.5 to 2.8 , 3-5 minutes is a long time...remember we have SU integrated with it already so it will be delivered as near to S 400's as possible...
 

Kumata

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Rafale to land in India on 27 July, will be combat-ready early as France diverts missiles
Rafale jets will take off from Istres and fly to French airbase in UAE before landing in Ambala. French air refuellers will carry out 2 mid-air refuelling of the fighters till UAE.

New Delhi: Amid India’s ongoing border standoff with China, at least four Rafale fighter jets are now scheduled to land in Ambala on 27 July, and will be ready for combat earlier than expected as the French have diverted an initial lot of cutting edge missiles meant for its own air force to India, ThePrint has learnt.


“The date worked out between India and France is July 27 for the delivery of the aircraft. Four aircraft will come for sure while an attempt is being made to ensure that a total of six jets come,” said a source.


According to sources, the jets can be deployed for combat quicker than anticipated as France has diverted some of the game-changing missiles — Meteor and SCALP — meant for its own air force to the Rafale jets for India. Originally, this was supposed to happen months after the delivery of the fighter jets.



ThePrint had first reported on 20 March that the delivery of the Rafale fighter jets could get delayed from its original May date due to the Covid-19 pandemic. On 14 April, ThePrint reported that the delivery will take place only in July.

Will fly via UAE, with two mid-air refuellers

According to the plan, the Rafale jets will take off from Istres in France and fly to the French airbase in Al Dhafra near Abu Dhabi in the UAE. After a night halt, the jets will fly to Ambala in Haryana, where the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s 17 Squadron ‘Golden Arrows’ is based.

“The fighters will be flown by Indian pilots and will fly straight for 10 hours (Al Dhafra). It will have a halt for the night and next day fly to Ambala,” another source told ThePrint.



The initial plan was that the aircraft would arrive after layovers in multiple countries. However, the Covid pandemic meant that the pilots would have to undergo quarantine at each base, said the sources.


It has now been decided that two French Airbus mid-air refuellers will fly with the jets. There would be at least two rounds of mid-air refuelling on the way to UAE, the sources said.


Indian mid-air refuellers will take charge the next day for the journey to Ambala. Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots are now getting trained in France for refuelling. This was not part of the original training, said the sources.

France diverts missiles to IAF

The contract India and France signed in September 2016 had said the Rafale delivery would take place in May 2020, and the main weapons package would arrive in October, said the sources.


However, following a request, France has diverted the missiles made for its air force to India. These have started arriving already.


These missiles include the beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile, Meteor, which has the capability to hit targets over 120 km away, and the long range air-to-ground stand-off cruise missile, SCALP, which can strike targets 600 km away.



“This means that the Rafale could be combat-ready much earlier than expected. The Meteor and SCALP have already been integrated with the Rafales which are coming in,” another source said.


The integration of Meteor into the Rafale weapons system means an Indian Rafale would be able to shoot down an enemy aircraft over 100 km away without even crossing the Indian air space.

The 5.1-metre-long SCALP can be carried in either one missile or two missiles configuration on the Rafale. Its inclusion means Indian Rafales would not have to cross the Indian airspace to hit a target that is about 600 km in enemy territory.
I have a problem with stop over at UAE . they have huge porki piltos populace there who can eve drop on our jets...call me paranoid but i can trust a snake but not any muzzies nation with anything...
 

Flying Dagger

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Brazil gripen E/ng deal .

4.68 B for 36 jets=== 130 million. Now add inflation.

GaN based ew suit is not a big deal really it's being added to our su30mki already and will definitely be in mwf.

Tejas /mwf Maybe more costly by 2027 but gripen / rafale would be even more costlier. Inflation works for both.

If Tejas gets meteor it will have long list of clients world over. No other jet can provide such a lethal capability that cheap and reliably. That's why it won't get meteor anytime soon.

Mbda never promised to integrate meteor to lca no matter what radar is chosen.

Rafale numbers will go down if mwf gets meteor or sfdr comes faster.
1. 4.68 bn dollar includes not just jets that is not how price of jet is calculated.

For e.g. a Rafale cost 91 mn Euro to India but if you divide the cost of the deal by 36 it will be over 200 mn

Gripen probably cost around 70-75 mn .

And why would I add inflation to the cost of Gripen NG now on its current cost.

Tejas mk2 isn't in production yet nor have a prototype. It's cost is an estimate right now.

2. Now PLEASE READ abt GaNS vs GaS based AESA radar then make silly statement.

Sukhoi doesn't have an AESA radar, the whole point of Sukhoi upgrade is to get it along with Improved ew and engine.



3. Soon USA will retire it's F-16s creating a market of second hand capable aircraft and nation looking for cheap jet will flock them or buy migs and su35 like jet . Gripen itself if highly cost efficient.

4. You have been repeating same line like crazy.. get a break

IAF and HAL refused the European radar and meteor in the first place.




But later they had a change of heart and went to MBDA who reiterated their stand weapon system will be integrated with only European radar.


Later when IAF discussed again with a potential for billions of dollar arms deal they said they'll consider if the radar is Indian.
 

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