Know Your 'Rafale'

IndianHawk

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Yes, France does too much trade with China and would not like to annoy it. But the reality is China is the only alternative pole to the US in the economic field and emay possibly overtake the US in GDP numbers in the next 2 decades provided they grow faster than the US. Will France be comfortable with a world led by China as the dominant Superpower.

Hoping for too much from the French maybe. The lesson that all this teaches us is that self reliance is the only long-term panacea to our problems in defence. We need to redouble our efforts to achieve self sufficiency and technological independence. How much time it will take we don't know.

Yes, for the present the Israeli Derby-ER can be integrated with the Su30 mki. The Su30 mki has an good long range radar. What it lacks is a >150 km range BVR missile which will take advantage of the radar's capability. I don't think our Astra mk2 with dual pulse motor will be ready soon.

Anyway we will fight with what we have.
Self reliance is way forward that's why mwf tedbf and amca are moving ahead faster now.

Astra mk2 will come very soon. Dual pulse motor is already operational in our NGARM missile . Indigenous ku band seeker is already in Astra mk1 itself. So components are already here.

For now su30 has new Russian missiles rvv sd/ md and rvv BD and k100 for killing awacs and tankers.
Rvv sd is 110km++
Also have r27 varients with 130-140 km range with different seekers.
It also has Astra mk1 integrated which outranges everything in Pakistan arsenal and matched most of chini missiles barring PL15.

But pl15 is equivalent to Russian rvvBD . It's too bulky to be effective against fighter jets . So we are evenly stacked against china for air to air battle.

But yes all this has made it necessary to acquire even longer range missiles faster.
 

Tridev123

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Self reliance is way forward that's why mwf tedbf and amca are moving ahead faster now.

Astra mk2 will come very soon. Dual pulse motor is already operational in our NGARM missile . Indigenous ku band seeker is already in Astra mk1 itself. So components are already here.

For now su30 has new Russian missiles rvv sd/ md and rvv BD and k100 for killing awacs and tankers.
Rvv sd is 110km++
Also have r27 varients with 130-140 km range with different seekers.
It also has Astra mk1 integrated which outranges everything in Pakistan arsenal and matched most of chini missiles barring PL15.

But pl15 is equivalent to Russian rvvBD . It's too bulky to be effective against fighter jets . So we are evenly stacked against china for air to air battle.

But yes all this has made it necessary to acquire even longer range missiles faster.
Are you sure?. Validating Astra mk2 will take time. It has not yet been fired in the surface to air mode to validate the propulsion system. They tested Astra mk1 first from ground launchers. I feel Astra mk2 may take a couple of years to fructify. Of course wish them all success. We urgently need the mk2 to outrange the Aim120c with Pakistan and match latest Chinese BVR missiles.

A question. We know that Chinese BVR missiles are based on Russian equivalents. Many of Chinese missiles use the r77 data links. But are the new Chinese BVR and Wvr missiles better than their Russian parents. Have the Chinese made Russian missiles better by modifications.

Glad to hear that we have 130 - 140 km range Russian Bvr missiles. In a dogfight will the Russian missiles outperform Chinese missiles. Hope so. Astra mk1 is an very important addition to our arsenal. Its ours and we can produce any number and modify it if necessary. Our Asraam is supposed to be the best Wvr missile in the world. Electronic Warfare is a force multiplier. Is India better than China in EW?.

I want to see the so called reputation of Chinese weapons bite the dust. During the Balakot air strikes we could easily jam Chinese radars.
 

Karthi

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PAF may get J31 and Stealthy JF 17 . China will arm them against India .
 

Tridev123

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PAF may get J31 and Stealthy JF 17 . China will arm them against India .
The only area where China could have a clear lead over India is in stealth technologies and aircraft. But I believe considerable research on anti stealth technologies has been done in various countries including Russia. Extra low frequency radars and of course IRST systems can spot stealth aircraft. The range of IRST systems on board fighters is limited. IRST works by detecting the thermal or heat signature of aircraft and does not rely on radar waves which are deflected by stealth aircraft.

India needs to conduct research in both good IRST systems and anti stealth radars. Stealth technology as a force multiplier will not disappear for the near future. Stealth technology is being used to create nearly invisible cruise missiles which will fly low and succeed in hitting targets. Therefore it is even more important for India to invest in anti stealth technologies and not be left behind.

Though unrelated to the present discussion another area where focus is needed is
night vision capability. We are presently fully dependent on Western companies to supply us with the main components of Night Vision Devices. They give us only previous generation technology. Warfare on the ground involving troops will see the application of night vision to conduct operations at night. The side which can see the enemy first and see it better has the advantage. The US is working on invisible cloak technology the stuff of fairy tales. It can become technologically feasible in the future. So India needs to create indigenous capability.

If China delivers the J31 to Pakistan be assured the US will not sit idle. It is not in the interest of the US to see China 's main ally(leaving N Korea out) getting a technological lead over democratic India. What will they do?. But they will do something. Russia unfortunately even though being our friend has painted itself into a corner. Their dependence on China is too much to be useful to us.
 

WolfPack86

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Ladakh standoff: India's allies pitching in with weapons, ammunition
New Delhi: As Indian troops remain dug in at Ladakh in a prolonged standoff with China, allies are pitching in with commitments to deliver urgently needed weapons and ammunition for the armed forces. France has promised to deliver additional Rafale jets next month, an in-service Israeli air defence system is expected soon, precision artillery rounds will be sent by the US, and Russia will make early deliveries of ammunition and weapons worth $1 billion.

The commitments have been made after top-level bilateral talks and a key meeting in the capital at which it was decided that emergency financial powers will be given to the armed forces to prepare for a prolonged standoff in eastern Ladakh.

The first set of cutting-edge Rafale fighter jets – equipped with perhaps the world’s best long-range air-to-air missiles – is expected to reach India by July 27. As per the initial plan, four fighters were to reach the home base at Ambala next month but sources said that France has now made a commitment to send additional Rafales in the first batch. A total of eight aircraft are nearing certification but it is unclear how many additional fighters could be delivered early.


Ferried by Indian Pilots
The planes will be ferried by Indian pilots who have been trained in France and will be fully combat ready when they arrive at Ambala. Sources said that in support of early delivery, France has committed that it will deploy its aerial refuelers to ensure that the jets make it to India with just a single hop.

Key defence supplier Israel – which showed its commitment as a reliable partner during the Kargil war too – is expected to deliver a much-needed air defence system that will be deployed along the border. Sources said that the unnamed air defence system is likely to come from the current holdings of the Israeli defence forces and would supplement the Ladakh sector. This would be useful as the Chinese side is said to have deployed its newly acquired S-400 air defence system in the sector as well.

India’s largest defence supplier Russia has pledged urgent delivery of weapons, ammunition and missiles that India asked for during the recent visit to Moscow by defence minister Rajnath Singh. A detailed list has been shared by India for several dozen requirements that would cost in excess of $1 billion and a commitment has been received from Russia of delivery within weeks.

Given that most land-based systems such as tanks and armoured carriers are of Russian origin, India is looking for a variety of ammunition that will be required in the event of a larger conflict. The air force is looking for urgent supply of air-dropped bombs and missiles while the army requires anti-tank missiles and man-portable air defence systems for the border.

India’s newest strategic partner – the US – has already been helping out with vital intelligence and satellite imagery that give military planners clarity on the border situation. Sources said that the US has invited India to share a list of all requirements with a commitment to be of assistance at the earliest.

In particular, additional Excalibur artillery rounds have been ordered on an emergency basis. The precision attack rounds with a range of over 40 km are used in a variety of artillery guns in the Indian inventory, including the M 777s that are designed for mountain warfare. These rounds are known for their accuracy and damage potential and have been tried and tested by the army.
 

BON PLAN

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44 -62 More Rafales are the best option for us. Then Induct MK1A , MWF, ORCA .


I am very interested in buying a small amount of Su 57 for deep strike and can be used for countering Chinese in IOR and beyond , Su 57 is the most advanced Anti stealth avionics 😊. Chinese may get Su 57 , so getting our hands into Su 57 will be helpful to counter them.
Su57 is not made for deep strike.
I doubt China will purchase it, as they already have J20.
 

WolfPack86

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Ladakh standoff: India's allies pitching in with weapons, ammunition. Additional Rafales from France next month $ 1 billion worth emergency ammo, ATGMs, MANPADs from Russia In service SAM system from Israel Excalibur, intelligence from the US
 

BON PLAN

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Dassault have lost the golden opportunity
What Golden opportunity? MMRCA1? It was a trap, because no one would have agree to give a full warranty to HAL without the permission to manage the HAL process. HAL was the pain in the ass of the MMRCA1, whether for SAAB, LM, EF, Boeing or Dassault.
 

WolfPack86

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IAF Rafales Land July 27, ‘Gamechanger’ Weaponry To Arrive Ahead
When the first Indian Air Force Rafale jets land in Ambala on July 27, their weaponry will have already been delivered and stored, ready for operations with the inaugural squadron, ‘Golden Arrows’. Livefist can confirm that key weapon stocks, including the SCALP cruise missile and Meteor beyond visual air to air missile, have already begun arriving in consignments, with the first lot to be completed by the first week of July.


At least six Rafales will take off from Istres, France and make a single stopover at the UAE’s Al Dhafra air force base near Abu Dhabi. The jets, to be ferried by Indian pilots, will be accompanied by a French Air Force tanker, possible one of the two new A330 MRTT tankers. While the initial plan was to deliver four Rafales, Livefist can confirm that the IAF and Dassault Aviation are working to ensure at least six airframes arrive in one go, with the possibility of that number increasing by a couple of airframes.


By August, the Indian Rafales will be operationally ready. Apart from the inauguration of the Golden Arrows squadron in August-September, the Rafales will likely make their first public appearance at the October 8 Air Force Day flypast over Delhi. The MBDA Scalp is a 560+ km range air to ground cruise missile, while the Meteor is currently the longest range air to air missile in operations. Both weapons outclass anything the Indian Air Force has in its arsenal currently, and are unanimously seen as a major evolutionary step in combat capability. A naval version of the SCALP is incidentally on offer to the Indian Navy too for its to-be-selected P75I submarines.


IAF pilots in France have had extensive interactions and briefings from the French Navy and Air Force on Rafale combat deployments over Libya and elsewhere. In this 2017 post, Livefist detailed the Rafale experience in combat theatres.

Weaponry arriving ahead of new jets is routine. Weapons storage facilities at Ambala have been ready since late last year, with safety certification complete. The IAF Rafale’s weapons will be combat deployable soon after the jets arrive. Training in France, both with the jets and on simulators, has included combat simulations with both weapon types. That training will continue in Ambala.


At the heart of the training ecosystem coming with India’s Rafales is a set of room-sized computers built by Sogitec, a fully owned subsidiary of Dassault Aviation. Termed synthetic collective training, two Sogitec training centres are being installed at Ambala and Hasimara (Hasimara will house the second Rafale squadron), each equipped with two Rafale simulators for initial and hands on training, flight and Weapon Delivery and Navigation System (WDNS) procedure learning including repetition of complete missions with complex tactical environments, two Unit Level Instruction System (ULIS) self-service trainers and one Part Task Trainer (PTT) for guided or free-access training on a restricted number of key procedures. The Ambala training centre will additionally have Rafale Maintenance Trainer and Computer-based Trainer rooms.



While the Ambala and Hasimara bases will be the IAF’s principal Rafale centres, the Gwalior Mirage 2000 station will be fully integrated right from the start for operations and cooperative training. The collective training and synthetic learning architecture being installed at Ambala and Hasimara will be linked directly to a similar module in Gwalior, being set up for the IAF’s upgraded Mirage 2000-5 fleet (several have been upgraded so far out of 51). This will allow pilots at the three bases to fly cooperative simulated missions using both aircraft types on a long list of existing and fresh combat scenarios. These will, of course, include area denial combat air patrol operations on the Chinese front and northern sectors, close air support and interdiction missions in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, precision strike missions along the Line of Control and cooperative reconnaissance missions/anti-surface missions on both of India’s seaboards. The experience of the Gwalior squadrons, coupled with the new tools coming with the Rafale will be a huge mutual boost to both bases, types and fleets. The upgraded Mirage 2000 jets also share key weapons coming with the Rafales — the MICA air to air missile.
 

BON PLAN

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Can Rafale supply to other countries like Qatar, Egypt etc be deferred and the planes diverted to India?. I am talking about accelerated supply of our already contracted 36 Rafales.

I am sure France does not want an hegemonic aggressive China to succeed in threatening its neighbours. China is a long term threat to the West.

I know France has ruled out integrating the Meteor Bvr missile with the Su30 mki but will it reconsider if an Indo - China war breaks out.

Nobody wants war but one can never predict with 100% certainty.
Egypt order is already all delivered.
Qatar : 1/month. Qatar itself is in a unconfortable situation with AS and UAE....
Sole proper solution : using some of the 28 remaining of the last french order.

Meteor : India lost an opportunity in chosing the Israeli radar for Tejas. India was keen about that security issue : we would not accept to integrate this very sensible weapon on a non west weapon system... And specially not on a russian (or chinese) one. So it's now over.
 

Flying Dagger

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France doesn't care for Chinese expansion. It's safe in Europe . And fighter jets delivery is not just french decision it's subject to agreement signed with relevant countries.

Who will buy rafale once su30 has meteor ranged missile?? So it won't come . Meteor is usp for European jets sale . That's why sfdr with Russia is so important . That's also why Russia will remain our prime defense partner for longtime.

Israel is ready to provide derby ER which we should integrate with su30 even if Russia objects.
Rafale is more than Just Meteor.

India could have it on Tejas if we had chosen Saab or Thales radar instead of Israeli Elta.

And No we aren't or can't integrate without Russia knowing it.
 

IndianHawk

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Rafale is more than Just Meteor.

India could have it on Tejas if we had chosen Saab or Thales radar instead of Israeli Elta.

And No we aren't or can't integrate without Russia knowing it.
We have integrated Astra and bramhos on bars without Russian help. If we are going into war we won't care about Russian objection to integrate derby ER. Meteor is not available anyway
 

Flying Dagger

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An assembly line is in the package of the next Rafale order. Why do you think DA&Reliance is building so many warehouses in India?
1. Yes but the order will decrease significantly even if Rafale is selected for 114 jets. If they had concluded it early on they might have had 200 around Rafales here.

Right now Additional Mig 29 UPG / Sukhoi are eating it's pie

2. Agree No one will guarantee without being involved in the process but it was more than that. There were issues related to what they bid and what they asked later.
 

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