Know Your 'Rafale'

[WARREN SS]

India will not going to buy the F35 at any cost
If USA offer F35 for free then there is a little chance.
India might consider buying F22A (Alfa) Raptor if available or be part of F22B (Bravo) Raptor * development
(* After seeing the performance of F35
USAF wants F22B (Bravo) Raptor)

You Will See this happening Withing this decade
Arms Lobby Strong more On that USA Foreign Policy Is Stronger To Push strategic deals

 

[IndianHawk]

Navy Has Smoking ACE in there hands HAL Babus.They Will pave the For 57 F-18SH

Navy is already started carrier trials

Boeing to display F-18 compatibility with Indian aircraft carriers

Indian Navy team likely to visit U.S. to witness the demonstration from a land-based ski jump facility at Maryland

www.thehindu.com

That's not navy but boing . BTW f18 doesn't even fit the lifts of either vikad or vikrant.

Navy will stick with tedbf as navy forced ada to change nlca mk1 to tedbf. Navy chief along with iaf and defense minister approved tedbf program. F18 or rafale m are now backups in case tedbf fails but that seems highly unlikely.

 

[WARREN SS]

That's not navy but boing . BTW f18 doesn't even fit the lifts of either vikad or vikrant.

Navy will stick with tedbf as navy forced ada to change nlca mk1 to tedbf. Navy chief along with iaf and defense minister approved tedbf program. F18 or rafale m are now backups in case tedbf fails but that seems highly unlikely.

Lets See To that

 

[Flying Dagger]

Rumors are flying another 8 may be orders soon. And then another batch of 36. IDK how true they are.

I'm speaking about long term planning.

Now that peace with china is dead . India may keep 400-500 jets dedicated for deep strikes in tibet with precision weapons.

200 su30 + 150 rafale + 150 mwf maybe dedicated toward Chinese frontier in coming years as amca comes along .

150 is a huge number I doubt we will buy. Rafale will be our fall back option everytime Tejas gets delayed. For now. 18 -36 might be an immediate purchase. The contract have an option of 18 more if I am right here,which will be exercised.

After that mk1a and MWF performance will seal the fate of further Rafale.

To deal with China we need a gov willing to take china down first economically which we don't have at the moment or in last several decades.

And you are right we will definitely need to dedicate 20-25 for china and same for pak.

Problem is we are in a tricky situation we have to support indigenous product line which are actually good ones but we are too short when it comes to desired strength. So whatever the gov does I hope it is good

 

[doreamon]

meteor has no escape zone of 150km ... .

 

[BON PLAN]

We have enough Sukhois their upgrade is more important than increase in number now.

What we need is Tejas mk2 like platform in huge numbers to overwhelm the paki sky.

Mki with an AESA and long range AAM could be nice !

Tejas Mk2 is far from IOC ! More than 5 years, I expect for India less than 10.

 

[IndianHawk]

150 is a huge number I doubt we will buy. Rafale will be our fall back option everytime Tejas gets delayed. For now. 18 -36 might be an immediate purchase. The contract have an option of 18 more if I am right here,which will be exercised.

After that mk1a and MWF performance will seal the fate of further Rafale.

To deal with China we need a gov willing to take china down first economically which we don't have at the moment or in last several decades.

And you are right we will definitely need to dedicate 20-25 for china and same for pak.

Problem is we are in a tricky situation we have to support indigenous product line which are actually good ones but we are too short when it comes to desired strength. So whatever the gov does I hope it is good

We are also historically low as just 1.5 % of gdp is going to defense. Bringing it upto a healthy 2-2.5 % would add another 30 billion annual to defense budget.
Our airforce will have to swell to take on two front which is now real possibility.

Another 36 rafale are almost certain as infrastructure is already built for them. So 72 total are certain. From there it's just 70-80 more over the next decade.

At 2% of gdp our defense spending by 2030 maybe 200 billion usd annually ( 10 trillion gdp) .

We will spend almost 800billion -1000 billion on defence over next decade.
( Already 70 billion annual means 700 billion in 10 years accounted for modest growth could easily reach 800-1000 billion ).

How much 114 rafale ( 36 already bought)== 20 billion out of 1000.

Out of which most wil go to Desi systems ( so even bigger in terms of ppp Budget.)

On ppp our defense Budget is 250 billion already annual means 2500 -3000 billion ppp dollars over next decade very easily spent on defense.

This 3000 billion ppp will buy mwf / tedbf and amca simultaneously in hundreds along with much much more.

Our imports will be negligible by the end of decade as most major equipment is already changing to indian.

 

[BON PLAN]

The contract have an option of 18 more if I am right here

No. No option in the first contract.
But it's of no importance.

 

[IndianHawk]

Mki with an AESA and long range AAM could be nice !

Tejas Mk2 is far from IOC ! More than 5 years, I expect for India less than 10.

It's prototype components are already being procured. Radar already flight testing . Ew suite can be copied directly from mig29 d29 suite or mk1a uews suite.

Changes are minimal . Cockpit already displayed.

Don't let the past fool you otherwise you will become the past.

 

[BON PLAN]

True, F-21 is front runner "L1" candidate if it qualifies on all the technical parameters. assembly line.

Strange !
F16 was crushed from MMRCA1 because it wasn't efficient enough in some fields. F21 is a F16 with new (and probably heavier...) avionic.
I've read the MMRCA2 document : it is tailor made for Rafale. F21 is short.

 

[BON PLAN]

Nope F-35 Will come around 2024 Or 25

LOL. In 2024 or 2025 F35 will show how deep is the disaster.....

 

[piKacHHu]

Strange !
F16 was crushed from MMRCA1 because it wasn't efficient enough in some fields. F21 is a F16 with new (and probably heavier...) avionic.
I've read the MMRCA2 document : it is tailor made for Rafale. F21 is short.

That's exactly what I am saying.. As an open tender it will have two parts; Technical & Commercial. For which I suspect that all the candidates except Rafale and Typhoon will filter out in the Technical stage. My deduction is purely based on IAF chief's remark on "Rafale Class" fighter. All hinges on Dassault's willingness to invest in India for streamlining the Rafale production so that the cost of local assembly doesn't balloon its bid price against the Typhoon.

For Typhoon, they have plenty of orders in which they must have extracted the development costs, therefore they can go down a bit lower during the bidding.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

That's exactly what I am saying.. As an open tender it will have two parts; Technical & Commercial. For which I suspect that all the candidates except Rafale and Typhoon will filter out in the Technical stage. My deduction is purely based on IAF chief's remark on "Rafale Class" fighter. All hinges on Dassault's willingness to invest in India for streamlining the Rafale production so that the cost of local assembly doesn't balloon its bid price against the Typhoon.

For Typhoon, they have plenty of orders in which they must have extracted the development costs, therefore they can go down a bit lower during the bidding.

Typhoon is having involvement of multiple countries. And it also cannot carry N bombs. Germany is every time very keen to ban sales of arms to other countries they have already blacklisted turkey and saudi.
They have already denied access of heckler and Koch to sell equipment to india.
So I'm not sure that government of india will move ahead with typhoon.

Germany Extends Arms Embargo on Saudi Arabia - Defense Security Monitor

The German government has extended its arms embargo on Saudi Arabia. German media outlet DW reported on Monday that the German government had approved an extension of the arms embargo …

dsm.forecastinternational.com

 

[BON PLAN]

All hinges on Dassault's willingness to invest in India for streamlining the Rafale production so that the cost of local assembly doesn't balloon its bid price against the Typhoon.

For Typhoon, they have plenty of orders in which they must have extracted the development costs, therefore they can go down a bit lower during the bidding.

Dassault invests hard in India : there are differents warehouses in construction. It is rumored here in France that even for no more than 36 new jets, the assembly will take place in India (before the minimal request was for 80). And probably the sourcing in India for some components.
A Dassault asset is that, with the Reliance venture, they are in a situation to deliver before all the others biders.

Typhoon plenty of orders? not really. A new german order is not inked.
The EF AESA radar is 10 years late on Rafale one, and at least 6 years late on their own shedule. The range of EF is shorter than Rafale one. The evolution of EF is in doubt : 2 of the 4 originales customers are today investing in the costly F35, so EF is only the present and even the past for them. So EF can't be seen as an evolutive platform.

EF price will remain higher : the production is shared between 4 country, so it's not optimized.

 

[Karthi]

44 -62 More Rafales are the best option for us. Then Induct MK1A , MWF, ORCA .


I am very interested in buying a small amount of Su 57 for deep strike and can be used for countering Chinese in IOR and beyond , Su 57 is the most advanced Anti stealth avionics . Chinese may get Su 57 , so getting our hands into Su 57 will be helpful to counter them.

 

[IndianHawk]

44 -62 More Rafales are the best option for us. Then Induct MK1A , MWF, ORCA .


I am very interested in buying a small amount of Su 57 for deep strike and can be used for countering Chinese in IOR and beyond , Su 57 is the most advanced Anti stealth avionics . Chinese may get Su 57 , so getting our hands into Su 57 will be helpful to counter them.

Depends if Russian could deliver su57 with new engine by 2025. And very doubtful that Russian will sold that to Chinese now given Chinese copy pasting.

Also china buying su57 will be admission that j20 project has completely failed .

 

[Flying Dagger]

Tejas Mk 1 and 85 Mig 29upg's plus 35 naval mig 29k are more than enough for Pak airforce. If ASRAAM, ASTRA and i Derby is standardised in Mig 29's and Tejas, we will finish off Pak airforce in a day. 

84 Mig UPG includes the upcoming 21 ? Is the deal signed yet ?

We have 49 upgraded Mirage 2k too

PAF isn't so easy to take out dude nor aerial warfare a game of this and that missile. We will have to pull a lot more than that anyway.

 

[Flying Dagger]

No. No option in the first contract.
But it's of no importance.

I did heard in a discussion that there is an option of increasing the original number to 18 more without increase in cost.

The importance is there ... If there is such a clause in it. Then IAF can get additional 18 without much issue.

If Rafale had an assembly line here in India IAF would have got more of them without much fuss from the ministry just like Sukhoi.

Leaders are ready for IAF to take more delivery of Su as they are built in here. It is IAF who wants a different platform.

Dassault have lost the golden opportunity I doubt it's coming back to them again. The orders would have easily crossed 200 for sure then.

 

[IndianHawk]

84 Mig UPG includes the upcoming 21 ? Is the deal signed yet ?

We have 49 upgraded Mirage 2k too

PAF isn't so easy to take out dude nor aerial warfare a game of this and that missile. We will have to pull a lot more than that anyway.

While we should not take paf lightly it is still woefully obsolete. There are 75 f16 ( even most of them are pretty old. ) And 100 jf17 block 1 and 2 could use medium range bvr .

Other all are f7 ( being replaced with jf17) and mirage 3 and 5 all of which are more obsolete than our mig21 and no replacement in sight anytime soon.

So they basically have 200 jets capable of air to air fight rest are pure strike.

Looking at that 84 mig 29 upg + 50 mileage upg + 123 lca mk1a ( total==250) could actually overwhelm them combined with s400 , mrsam and Akash ng / qrsam playing defensive role we could actually wipe out most of paf.

Now even our Jaguars with aesa and derby can fire as much as jf17 block 1 or 2 though that is purely defensive Manuever but still it shows that their most numerous air to air fighter can't out range our old strike fighter in bvr fight as of now.

 

[IndianHawk]

I did heard in a discussion that there is an option of increasing the original number to 18 more without increase in cost.

The importance is there ... If there is such a clause in it. Then IAF can get additional 18 without much issue.

There was a clause but iaf declined it iirc.