Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Wow. Why such specific question ma man?

because the NEZ firing from a fighter at low speed and very low altitude against a target far higher and faster is totally different than in the other sens.

It's a good question, but very sensitive, for all AA weapons.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

because the NEZ firing from a fighter at low speed and very low altitude against a target far higher and faster is totally different than in the other sens.

It's a good question, but very sensitive, for all AA weapons.

Which is what I intended to ask him. Why such specific sensitive questions?

 

[south block]

Which is what I intended to ask him. Why such specific sensitive questions?

as @BON PLAN clarified all this range , NEZ is speculative & depend upon many factors & I also wanted to compare its performance specially that of claimed NEZ with other speculative performance of upcoming BVRAAM like SFDR , PL- 21 & others.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

This video show clearly how superior Meteor is against AIM 120D and Chinese PL-15.

 

[fire starter]

This video show clearly how superior Meteor is against AIM 120D and Chinese PL-15.

and sfdr will be superior of meteor:bounce:

 

[fire starter]

This video show clearly how superior Meteor is against AIM 120D and Chinese PL-15.

lol so called game changer pl 15 is inferior to meteor.no technical superiority will be attained by this dud missile. all the crying fan boys and lobbyists should die in hell after watching this video.

 

[Snowcat]

Some interesting points regarding the possible navy carrier fighter deal.
A pilot talks about the difference between a Block 2 Super hornet and Rafale M.

https://hushkit.net/2019/12/20/dass...hters-compared/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

[WolfPack86]

First four Rafale jets to arrive by May end: Rajnath Singh
The first four Rafale fighter jets are arriving in India by the last week of May, following which an aircraft will arrive every 45 days, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh disclosed at the Economic Times Global Business Summit, saying that the 36 on order are enough to take care of adversaries as of now.

Speaking at the annual summit, the minister shared the government’s plans for the defence sector and said that the plan is for the sector to grow to $ 26 billion by 2025, with the private sector being a key player to achieve the goal. The minister also said that India’s relations with China are on the upswing and that there is no threat perception on the border.

“The Defence sector has been identified as one of the key sectors that will help us in achieving the stated objectives. In our envisaged Defence Production Policy, we have clearly spelt out our goal to achieve a turnover of US$ 26 billion in aerospace and defence goods and services by 2025, involving an additional investment of nearly US$ 10 billion and creating employment for nearly 2-3 million people,” the minister said.


Taking a realistic view on the sector, the minister said that a lot more needs to be done to drive defence manufacturing to its true potential and that there is certain sense of underperformance at the moment where the private sector needs to step in.

“One of the main reasons for this was to retain the field of defence production within the confines of governmental control and ownership. Though, it was the necessity of the times and it did help provide a much-needed foundation to an industry that was not commercially competitive to begin with. However, the necessity of becoming internationally competitive, globally innovative and structurally efficient, demands that the private sector plays its long-awaited role in the defence industrial production,” he said.

Elaborating on steps taken to promote industry, the minister said that the government is going all out to meet demands. “We have opened opportunities through DRDO with a zero fee for Transfer of Technology (TOT), free access to over 450 patents, access to test facilities and an upfront funding of up to 10 crores. More than 900 licensing agreements for ToT have been signed with industries. This is a major step towards self-reliance in defence manufacturing sector,” the minister said.

Terming Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises as ‘silent performers’ who carry the ambition of achieving five trillion economy on their shoulders, the minister said that their role is being expanded. “More than 8000 MSMEs are currently engaged in Defence Production. Efforts are being made for doubling the active MSME base in Defence and Aerospace from 8000 to 16,000,” the minister said.

Singh said that export of defence products is a priority area and the private sector is being encouraged to reach out to global clients. “We would also be willing to extend Lines of Credit and grants for Friendly Foreign Countries over the next five years. The government aims to achieve exports of defence goods & services to the tune of USD 5 Bn in next 5 years,” he said.

The minster announced that the government’s aim is to double the size of Aeronautics Industry from Rs. 30,000 Cr to 60,000 Cr by 2024. “A number of major platforms are envisaged in defence Aerospace sector including India’s 90-seater civil aircraft, developing civil helicopter industry of USD 5 Bn in PPP model, and New Aero Engine Complex in Defence Corridor with industry participation,” he said.

The defence minister assured the industry that the government is open to new ideas and is “committed to fully harness the energies, entrepreneurship spirit and enterprise of private sector in the area of defence.”
https://www.defencenews.in/article/First-four-Rafale-jets-to-arrive-by-May-end-Rajnath-Singh-809625

 

[Ultimatejuggernaut]

lol so called game changer pl 15 is inferior to meteor.no technical superiority will be attained by this dud missile. all the crying fan boys and lobbyists should die in hell after watching this video.

I'm not a military expert. I have the following silly question as described in this very simplistic (perhaps unrealistic) scenario:

Let's say 2 JF Bandars with each plane carrying 4 PL-15 missiles head towards Indian airspace.
IAF scrambles 2 Rafales with each of them carrying 4 meteors.

From 200 km, each of the JF bandars, fire all of their PL-15 missiles within few seconds and before coming in the range of meteors both head back towards their bases.

Now experts please help me understand what the Rafales will do?

Will Rafales continue to head towards PAF fighters assuming that PL-15 cannot touch them?
Or will they go for defensive measures?

If Rafales become defensive, will they be game changer?
Obviously, Rafales will not try to enter in Baki's airspace as their might be SAMs in that area and will head back to their bases.

In the end, Rafales will end up being teased in this simplistic scenario. As it happened to MKI(s) on Feb 27th.
I will be more than happy if some expert(s) answer here.

Add more fighters on both sides and make a realistic scenario for wins and losses.

So then what is the point in thinking of buying more Rafales or any other expensive jet when see first, shoot first and scoot first will be nature of skirmish. Why, because of these aspects:

1. Any type of skirmishes or short wars specially involving Air Force between us and Bakis will be fought reluctantly by both sides as it happened on February 27th.

2. When two mighty nations are fighting reluctantly or with the intention of pacifying common man, then the biggest fear or worry is the "EMBARRASSMENT". Why embarrassment, because there will be no skirmishes next day. So there will be no second chance.

 

[piKacHHu]

I'm not a military expert. I have the following silly question as described in this very simplistic (perhaps unrealistic) scenario:

Let's say 2 JF Bandars with each plane carrying 4 PL-15 missiles head towards Indian airspace.
IAF scrambles 2 Rafales with each of them carrying 4 meteors.

From 200 km, each of the JF bandars, fire all of their PL-15 missiles within few seconds and before coming in the range of meteors both head back towards their bases.

Now experts please help me understand what the Rafales will do?

Will Rafales continue to head towards PAF fighters assuming that PL-15 cannot touch them?
Or will they go for defensive measures?

If Rafales become defensive, will they be game changer?
Obviously, Rafales will not try to enter in Baki's airspace as their might be SAMs in that area and will head back to their bases.

In the end, Rafales will end up being teased in this simplistic scenario. As it happened to MKI(s) on Feb 27th.
I will be more than happy if some expert(s) answer here.

Add more fighters on both sides and make a realistic scenario for wins and losses.

So then what is the point in thinking of buying more Rafales or any other expensive jet when see first, shoot first and scoot first will be nature of skirmish. Why, because of these aspects:

1. Any type of skirmishes or short wars specially involving Air Force between us and Bakis will be fought reluctantly by both sides as it happened on February 27th.

2. When two mighty nations are fighting reluctantly or with the intention of pacifying common man, then the biggest fear or worry is the "EMBARRASSMENT". Why embarrassment, because there will be no skirmishes next day. So there will be no second chance.

The range of PL-15 is quite exaggerated so we can safely assume PL-15 and Meteor both have the same range & NEZ ; in that case following scenario could emerge:

1. Detection range of Rafale (RBE AESA) is superior to JF17 radars, over and above its RCS is also low. So even though the Rafales are detected by Paki AWACS earlier, JF 17 needs to come closer to Rafales to provide initial radar guidance to PL15 in which case the game changer Meteor will come into picture.Following which it may also be possible that JF17 doesn't get any firing solution till a point when their RWRs and MAWS start blaring.

2. 2 Jeff vs 2 Rafales scenario is unlikely to happen as they will be accompanied by package of aircrafts on both side aided by AWACS. Over and above if you consider superior ECM & ECCM, then also Rafale has edge over any Paki aircraft on stand-alone basis. SPECTRA or early warning sensors/counter measures on Rafale will increase its survivability in case of any ambush by F-16s or JF-17.

However, bottom line is this Rafale is not an infallible aircraft. Especially during incursion in enemy territory defended by SAMs and AMRAAM carrying F-16s, things may go wrong. But in case we are able to lure PAF aircrafts near our air space, it will be very difficult for them to escape from salvos of Meteors.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

The range of PL-15 is quite exaggerated so we can safely assume PL-15 and Meteor both have the same range & NEZ ; in that case following scenario could emerge:

1. Detection range of Rafale (RBE AESA) is superior to JF17 radars, over and above its RCS is also low. So even though the Rafales are detected by Paki AWACS earlier, JF 17 needs to come closer to Rafales to provide initial radar guidance to PL15 in which case the game changer Meteor will come into picture.Following which it may also be possible that JF17 doesn't get any firing solution till a point when their RWRs and MAWS start blaring.

2. 2 Jeff vs 2 Rafales scenario is unlikely to happen as they will be accompanied by package of aircrafts on both side aided by AWACS. Over and above if you consider superior ECM & ECCM, then also Rafale has edge over any Paki aircraft on stand-alone basis. SPECTRA or early warning sensors/counter measures on Rafale will increase its survivability in case of any ambush by F-16s or JF-17.

However, bottom line is this Rafale is not an infallible aircraft. Especially during incursion in enemy territory defended by SAMs and AMRAAM carrying F-16s, things may go wrong. But in case we are able to lure PAF aircrafts near our air space, it will be very difficult for them to escape from salvos of Meteors.

You’re both unaware of SPECTRA’s capabilities like most people are. SPECTRA alone can guarantee Rafale to go into highly contested airspace(aka enemy territory) and deliver ordinance at standoff ranges. This was done numerous times in the Libyan conflict, whereas US air assets could only enter Libyan airspace after heavy SEAD operations using tomahawks. SPECTRA’s capabilities are far far ahead of F16s, PLAAF assets or F18,15,16’s.

Rafales will guarantee a first shot firing solution before chinese or Pakistani fighters in their current inventorying in any air to air engagement. There’s a reason why the IAF is dead set in acquiring these beasts. Their EW capability is way closer to 5th generation than any other 4.5 gen aircraft.

 

[piKacHHu]

You’re both unaware of SPECTRA’s capabilities like most people are. SPECTRA alone can guarantee Rafale to go into highly contested airspace(aka enemy territory) and deliver ordinance at standoff ranges. This was done numerous times in the Libyan conflict, whereas US air assets could only enter Libyan airspace after heavy SEAD operations using tomahawks. SPECTRA’s capabilities are far far ahead of F16s, PLAAF assets or F18,15,16’s.

Rafales will guarantee a first shot firing solution before chinese or Pakistani fighters in their current inventorying in any air to air engagement. There’s a reason why the IAF is dead set in acquiring these beasts. Their EW capability is way closer to 5th generation than any other 4.5 gen aircraft.

If you have gone through my post, I have given due credit to capabilities of SPECTRA; however, bombing a nation like Libya which was under civil unrest at those time and presumably its armed forces were not that motivated is not much of a Gold standard to gauge any system's capabilities. It is not even a fraction of what USAF faced in IRAQ during First Gulf War. And do remember, Pakistan is no Libya as apart from SAMs it has a decent airforce with better BVR capabilities.

 

[BON PLAN]

Some interesting points regarding the possible navy carrier fighter deal.
A pilot talks about the difference between a Block 2 Super hornet and Rafale M.

https://hushkit.net/2019/12/20/dass...hters-compared/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Interesting !

"Therefore, it is probably reasonable to conclude that the Rafale M in F3R configuration has the superior radar in most multirole scenarios compared to the Block II Super Hornet."

"Within visual range, the Rafale M would be in a very dominant position against a Super Hornet in almost all circumstances... The Rafale M can best the Super Hornet in instantaneous and sustained turn rate at all comparable loadings at all altitudes."

"If in a guns-only situation, with both aircraft slicked off; the Rafale M will eat the Super Hornet at any altitude. A head-on would be the Bug’s only chance assuming a 1v1 with reasonably comparable pilot skill."

"With a slight advantage in general radar detection range for the APG-79 on the Super Hornet over the RBE but a significantly lower frontal radar cross section and better ECM capabilities on the Rafale, the Rafale will probably get the first look"

"the Rafale M would detect the Super Hornet in time to launch Meteor with a good Pk from significantly futher out. First shot and first kill are likely to go to the Rafale M"

"with a significantly greater payload capacity, less draggy airframe and ability to fly higher and faster especially in dry power, it is safe to say that the Rafale M has a significantly greater overall combat radius for most missions than the F/A-18E."

"The Super Hornet is the winner on most counts on weapons options. "

 

[Hydra3]

The range of PL-15 is quite exaggerated so we can safely assume PL-15 and Meteor both have the same range & NEZ ; in that case following scenario could emerge:

1. Detection range of Rafale (RBE AESA) is superior to JF17 radars, over and above its RCS is also low. So even though the Rafales are detected by Paki AWACS earlier, JF 17 needs to come closer to Rafales to provide initial radar guidance to PL15 in which case the game changer Meteor will come into picture.Following which it may also be possible that JF17 doesn't get any firing solution till a point when their RWRs and MAWS start blaring.

2. 2 Jeff vs 2 Rafales scenario is unlikely to happen as they will be accompanied by package of aircrafts on both side aided by AWACS. Over and above if you consider superior ECM & ECCM, then also Rafale has edge over any Paki aircraft on stand-alone basis. SPECTRA or early warning sensors/counter measures on Rafale will increase its survivability in case of any ambush by F-16s or JF-17.

However, bottom line is this Rafale is not an infallible aircraft. Especially during incursion in enemy territory defended by SAMs and AMRAAM carrying F-16s, things may go wrong. But in case we are able to lure PAF aircrafts near our air space, it will be very difficult for them to escape from salvos of Meteors.

1. Jf17 is chinese made fighter with chinese missiles, and paf do operates chinese awacs too. They can fire pl15 missile form jf17 without using jf17 radar, all they need is a data link from their chinese awacs. So its highly likely that jf17 will fire its first shot with pl15 before we fire our meteor from rafale ( if pl15 is having the advertised range).
And if they fired their missile in air skirmish scenario like feb27-2019, definitely our fighter pilots will back of. But in an all out war, thing will be different.

 

[Hydra3]

The most worry some development is happening in USA, AIM260 development. If AIM260 happened to reach in PAF hands....

 

[fire starter]

1. Jf17 is chinese made fighter with chinese missiles, and paf do operates chinese awacs too. They can fire pl15 missile form jf17 without using jf17 radar, all they need is a data link from their chinese awacs. So its highly likely that jf17 will fire its first shot with pl15 before we fire our meteor from rafale ( if pl15 is having the advertised range).
And if they fired their missile in air skirmish scenario like feb27-2019, definitely our fighter pilots will back of. But in an all out war, thing will be different.

well our awacs also have L band data link we can also take first shot. Rafael will be the only net centric aircraft. before mk1a comes in.

 

[Hydra3]

well our awacs also have L band data link we can also take first shot. Rafael is also a net centric aircraft.........

AFAIK, the one with longer range missile will fire first. Let's assume both side is fighting under awacs umbrella with data link, pl15's range will enable jf17 to fire missile first i think.

 

[fire starter]

AFAIK, the one with longer range missile will fire first. Let's assume both side is fighting under awacs umbrella with data link, pl15's range will enable jf17 to fire missile first i think.

pl15 is having dual pulse solid rocket motor so if they fire it from max range it will miss it's target whereas meteor is having ramjet engine and data link and it's kill probability when fired from max range is 60% as compared to 30% of pl15

 

[fire starter]

AFAIK, the one with longer range missile will fire first. Let's assume both side is fighting under awacs umbrella with data link, pl15's range will enable jf17 to fire missile first i think.

watch this ......................

 

[Hydra3]

watch this ......................

I say this the same day when it was posted. Question is weather IAF will take a chance? I do beleive that they will not if they are not in a full scalw war.