Know Your 'Rafale'

[abhay rajput]

So what the French pilot is actually saying is that Rafale is on equal footing against F-16C and it's toast against SH in 1-on-1 WVR fight.

What he did not mention are their capabilities in BVR. But I would say that on BVR the SH and Rafale are on equal footing but F-16C will be slightly at a disadvantage. And the F-16V should narrow any advantages the Rafale and SH have in BVR.

However, on acquisition cost and sustainment cost, the Rafale is at a severe disadvantage against both F-16 and SH.

Quite wrong in BVR typhoon will beat f18, Rafale, and all other aircrafts. Except ofcourse stealth ones

 

[aditya10r]

Try making these configurations of Rafale LO....

Plus the drag penalty...

Ah.

Try making this LO.

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[Armand2REP]

Rafale is not a LO aircraft, add a couple of stores and it will light up like a Christmas tree.

Rafale is always LO from the top down where you can't see the stores. That is why it uses low level strike to penetrate enemy air defences and pop up tactics to kill aggressor aircraft.

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale is always LO from the top down where you can't see the stores. That is why it uses low level strike to penetrate enemy air defences and pop up tactics to kill aggressor aircraft.

A terrain hugging Jag is quite LO by low flying standards. Rafale takes Jag ability to next gen. Sorry but you can't call a thing LO with IFR sticking out like a mini penis. Low flying is great but there are many things that can pop up on you including IR seeking AA missile crews, short range defenses. A well trained defender with a decent AA ability will run circles around low flying aircraft. Not to mention such gold plated aircraft are easy targets for cheap man portable AA crews.

 

[Armand2REP]

A terrain hugging Jag is quite LO by low flying standards. Rafale takes Jag ability to next gen. Sorry but you can't call a thing LO with IFR sticking out like a mini penis. Low flying is great but there are many things that can pop up on you including IR seeking AA missile crews, short range defenses. A well trained defender with a decent AA ability will run circles around low flying aircraft. Not to mention such gold plated aircraft are easy targets for cheap man portable AA crews.

Would you rather face S-400 at high altitude where you are showing your stores and IFR against the cold back drop of space or would you rather fly low and blend into the ground clutter? When you are hitting the deck at super sonic speeds there is not much reaction time for an Igla to take a shot at you. By the time an Igla gets up to speed you would already be out of range.

 

[Bhurki]

Ah.

Try making this LO.

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This part will not come until all enemy defenses have undergone a heavy SEAD/DEAD dose.
After that you can fly a mig 21 there and it wont matter.
In all stealth critical missions, F35 will use its huge internal bays capable of lugging >5000 lbs of stores.

 

[Bhurki]

Would you rather face S-400 at high altitude where you are showing your stores and IFR against the cold back drop of space or would you rather fly low and blend into the ground clutter? When you are hitting the deck at super sonic speeds there is not much reaction time for an Igla to take a shot at you. By the time an Igla gets up to speed you would already be out of range.

Thats all well and fine, a jet can still perform its missions if its detected.
But if the main mission parameter is execution without detection, then i'm afraid rafale will have a low success rates.

 

[Armand2REP]

This part will not come until all enemy defenses have undergone a heavy SEAD/DEAD dose.
After that you can fly a mig 21 there and it wont matter.
In all stealth critical missions, F35 will use its huge internal bays capable of lugging >5000 lbs of stores.

You just made the case for Rafale. When it conducts SEAD it uses SCALP for LRSAMs, AASM for MRSAM/SHORAD and Paveways for anything less. As it degrades the enemy IADs threat level, it would open it up to safer operations as it goes down the target list. It would never be within range of enemy defences until after it destroyed them with stand-off weapons.

 

[Bhurki]

You just made the case for Rafale. When it conducts SEAD it uses SCALP for LRSAMs, AASM for MRSAM/SHORAD

Detection from SAM aka 'radiating target' will need to happen for that,
The only way a rafale will employ those Anti rad missiles is if it first detects that it has been 'seen'.
This is the event in the SAM operators kill chain that F35 tries to avoid entirely, it will employ the weapons outside the envelope of SAM targeting capability, severely handicapping it.

 

[Armand2REP]

Detection from SAM aka 'radiating target' will need to happen for that,
The only way a rafale will employ those Anti rad missiles is if it first detects that it has been 'seen'.
This is the event in the SAM operators kill chain that F35 tries to avoid entirely, it will employ the weapons outside the envelope of SAM targeting capability, severely handicapping it.

The way Rafale does SEAD is using Spectra to triangulate locations with a flight of three or more Rafale. Once it has finished mapping the enemy radars it will begin the systematic destruction of them. France also has a satellite constellation that can map enemy air defences from space. It is a completely passive process that requires no emissions from Rafale.

 

[Bhurki]

It is a completely passive process that requires no emissions from Rafale

I wasnt talking about emissions from rafale.
Any radiation from a SAM hitting rafale for it to detect that SAM battery will unavoidably reflect back to the recieving sensor on that SAM radar, exposing rafale's location.
Its that supression( non reflection due to RAM coatings) that doesnt happen incase of rafale and does incase of F35 that i was emphasizing on.

 

[Gaurav Rai]

Baaki mmrca deal me bhi Rafale choose karke jaldi khareedein ye. Saale aalsi sarkari babu.

 

[Armand2REP]

I wasnt talking about emissions from rafale.
Any radiation from a SAM hitting rafale for it to detect that SAM battery will unavoidably reflect back to the recieving sensor on that SAM radar, exposing rafale's location.
Its that supression( non reflection due to RAM coatings) that doesnt happen incase of rafale and does incase of F35 that i was emphasizing on.

Spectra can analyse radar returns well outside the range of those missile systems. They are analysing them from space.

 

[Bhurki]

. They are analysing them from space.

O K

 

[asianobserve]

Ah.

Try making this LO.

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LOL! That's Beast Mode when full stealth is not required.

 

[Armand2REP]

O K

https://elisa.cnes.fr/fr/

 

[Bhurki]

If you think

https://elisa.cnes.fr/fr/

Its a poor attempt to copy the US NOSS satellites.
The small size of about 120 kg means they are unlikely to detect low energy radars common on S/MRSAM batteries.( atm scatter)

Besides, you need several triangulating quartets/ triplets to have any sensible probability of being overhead of the target to do detection. (60° to the azimuth at very mininum)
Thats also the reason China is crowding the orbits with its Yaogan series ( 6 elint triplets already launched)

Here's the position of Elisa right now..

The revisit rate for the system over any place will be an average of atleast 9 hours ( 6 x 1.5 hrs orbits). Do you aim to wait for that long just to respond to a SAM battery?

Atleast 12 systems are required to have persistent oversight. ( Considering orbit of around 600-700 km and 60° to azimuth detection capability)

 

[Armand2REP]

Thats also the reason China is crowding the orbits with its Yaogan series ( 6 elint triplets already launched)

The Chinese constellation isn't even comparable. The reason there are so many Yaogan is because they fail in less then 4 years so they must continually replace them. The ELISA constellation was launched in 2011 and is still in operation today and won't be replaced until 2021. 3 years life for Chinese satellites and 10 years for French, it is about quality not quantity.

 

[Bhurki]

The Chinese constellation isn't even comparable.

The yaogan triplets are way larger than Elise satellites.
This can be seen in their orbits.
Elise is placed at around 650 km while elint Yaogan are placed in 1100 km orbits, the same as NOSS, which provides way higher detection area when observing at the same angle..

The reason there are so many Yaogan is because they fail in less then 4 years so they must continually replace them. The ELISA constellation was launched in 2011 and is still in operation today and won't be replaced until 2021. 3 years life for Chinese satellites and 10 years for French, it is about quality not quantity.

Only 1 of the systems ( yaogan 9 launched in 2010) is out of commission.
The average age for systems is 8 years.
You are free to check the NORAD satellite database to see how you're wrong.

About elise.
Still, having just one TDOA based elint system is experimental at best, as the revisit times are just too far apart to be used in any effective way.

France always has had and has planned to have just one system in commission.
Essaim(2004) > Elise(2011) > Ceres(2021)
Because its probably too expensive for it to create and operate more than one system.

 

[BON PLAN]

So what the French pilot is actually saying is that Rafale is on equal footing against F-16C and it's toast against SH in 1-on-1 WVR fight.

What he did not mention are their capabilities in BVR. But I would say that on BVR the SH and Rafale are on equal footing but F-16C will be slightly at a disadvantage. And the F-16V should narrow any advantages the Rafale and SH have in BVR.

However, on acquisition cost and sustainment cost, the Rafale is at a severe disadvantage against both F-16 and SH.

It's not exactly a good summary :
"The F-16 is pretty cool. Typhoon is a joke, very easy to shoot. F-16 actually was a good surprise actually, I found it to be a pretty good aircraft. I think the most challenging was the F-16, it’s a pretty small jet so it’s easy to lose sight of it. So I think that was the big one."
=> ie EF is easy to shot. F16 is the hardest nut, a good (so a bad) surprise for a "old" plane, but just "challenging".

Sustainment cost is a paramete among others. Indian MMRCA field test pilots and top brass were surprised to see a Rafale flying 5 missions when all the competitors did 3.