Know Your 'Rafale'

Wisemarko

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I'm not a fanboy of either Rafael or f35.
Now coming to point . Your shitty diagram posts ranges of su35 pesa Radar
Rafale has aesa . Learn the difference before making a fool of yourself.

Secondly nez if aim120 is pathetic compared to modern ramjet based bvr.
Thirdly passive sensor can detect far ahead then nez of aim 120 thus negating the stealth of attacker.
And you want some declassified info . I'll say it just once. Your f35 level stealth can be tracked much farther then you realise.
But keep living in lala land. Hope it helps you sleep.
It would have served your knowledge better if you actually read the post before hurling insults. The diagram is shitty? You better think and learn before call that stuff names. It is from a very well done report on stealth technology.

SU-35 PESA Radar is extremely powerful radar and yet the point was, even PESA can detect Rafale and similar aircraft from over 100km. Read again....

Second, there was a point to my painful response. It was to make people (who can read AND understand English) aware that when level of stealth exceeds certain physical properties, range of missiles and power of airborne radars starts to matter less.

Yes the world is just so stupid to keep lining up to buy F-35. They should have consulted you for your omniscience.
 
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WolfPack86

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India begins manufacturing parts for Rafale fighter jets in Nagpur
In a first, India has started manufacturing parts for Rafale, some of which could even be used on the 36 French fighter jets ordered by the Narendra Modi government in 2016.

The first set of doors that cover the twin engines of the fighter jets has come out of the Nagpur facility, which is a joint venture of Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence and French firm Dassault Aviation.

“We are seeing India has one of the drivers of the Dassault Aviation products. Be it the Falcon business jet or now the Rafale, every product in the future will have an Indian connection,” an official of the French defence major told ThePrint.


Defence sources said the idea is to scale up production of Rafale parts in the coming months.

Asked if the doors will be fitted on board the Indian Rafale fighter jets, another company official said, “It is a may or may not be. It all depends on the rate of production and the quantity of parts available back in France. But the parts manufactured in Nagpur will go up on the Rafale for sure.”


First 4 Rafale jets expected to arrive in May ::

The first four Rafale jets are expected to arrive in India in May. While one squadron of the Rafale fighter jets will be based in Ambala, the other would be in Hasimara, West Bengal.

Industry sources said that what works for foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers is that production in India helps them to meet offset obligations and also to procure materials and products at a much lower rate since the labour cost is less in the country.

The Nagpur facility of Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) was initially making only cockpits for the French manufacturer’s Falcon business jets, besides other parts.

The facility was only meant to manufacture components for Falcon jets and not for the Rafale jets.

But in June 2019, ThePrint had reported that Dassault Aviation is likely to start manufacturing components of the Rafale fighter jets at its India facility, with the wares destined for global customers.

Dassault and Reliance announced their joint venture and the creation of DRAL on 3 October 2016, barely two weeks after India signed a 7.878 billion euro deal for 36 Rafale jets in a flyaway condition.

The DRAL facility was inaugurated in October 2017, in the presence of Dassault CEO Eric Trappier and Anil Ambani.
https://www.defencenews.in/article/...arts-for-Rafale-fighter-jets-in-Nagpur-809286
 

Sridhar_TN

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It would have served your knowledge better if you actually read the post before hurling insults. The diagram is shitty? You better think and learn before call that stuff names. It is from a very well done report on stealth technology.

SU-35 PESA Radar is extremely powerful radar and yet the point was, even PESA can detect Rafale and similar aircraft from over 100km. Read again....

Second, there was a point to my painful response. It was to make people (who can read AND understand English) aware that when level of stealth exceeds certain physical properties, range of missiles and power of airborne radars starts to matter less.

Yes the world is just so stupid to keep lining up to buy F-35. They should have consulted you for your omniscience.
@IndianHawk @Armand2REP
What none of you guys are discussing is about the SPECTRA systems on the Rafale and the EW system on f35.
The reason for the Rafale even being considered to be close to the F35 is because of SPECTRA. This is a system that people have very little information about for obvious reasons(duh).
So much so that the main reason for the iaf to go for this aircraft.
Not talking just about RCS reduction here. But about jamming, blinding, spoofing etc.....and rumored in some cases to remotely hack.....no solid info that I have:eek1:
 

Wisemarko

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What none of you guys are discussing is about the SPECTRA systems on the Rafale and the EW system on f35.
What do you want us to discuss? I can state what F-35 EW systems are capable of - declassified version:

“Advanced electronic warfare capabilities enable the F-35 to locate and track enemy forces, jam radio frequencies and disrupt attacks with unparalleled precision. All three variants of the F-35 carry active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radars with sophisticated electronic attack capabilities, including false targets, network attack, advanced jamming and algorithm-packed data streams. This system allows the F-35 to reach well-defended targets and suppress enemy radars that threaten the F-35. In addition, the ASQ-239 system provides fully integrated radar warning, targeting support, and self-protection, to detect and defeat surface and airborne threats.

While F-35 is capable of stand-off jamming for other aircraft — providing 10 times the effective radiated power of any legacy fighter — F-35s can also operate in closer proximity to the threat (‘stand-in’) to provide jamming power many multiples that of any 4th Gen fighter.”

I am sure SPECTRA boasts all these things as well and claims to have active cancellation.

Active cancellation is a theoretical military jamming technique that involves the sampling of an incoming radar signal, analyzing it, then returning the signal slightly out of phase, thus “cancelling” it out due to destructive interference.

Counter-countermeasures against Active Cancellation :
  • Frequency hoping radar (active cancellation require exact information about pulses to produce cancellation pulses , thus frequency agile radar are likely unaffected ) All current AESA have frequency agility.
  • PRF jitters (cancellation pulses need to be transmitted at exact moment to produce desirable interference effect, random PRF render the jammer unable to predict when the next pulse is coming)
  • Multiple radars render Active Cancellation ineffective.
No one is going to reveal the exact nature of their EW capability. What you read on forums and blogs is very speculative at best. Bottom line is that all EW aim to degrade radar/missile engagement capacity of the enemy. All major powers employ extremely powerful systems to achieve this objective. It is a race and not a destination. But it is well known that EW supremacy is short lived and cannot win wars by itself.
 
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Sridhar_TN

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What do you want us to discuss? I can state what F-35 EW systems are capable of - declassified version:

“Advanced electronic warfare capabilities enable the F-35 to locate and track enemy forces, jam radio frequencies and disrupt attacks with unparalleled precision. All three variants of the F-35 carry active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radars with sophisticated electronic attack capabilities, including false targets, network attack, advanced jamming and algorithm-packed data streams. This system allows the F-35 to reach well-defended targets and suppress enemy radars that threaten the F-35. In addition, the ASQ-239 system provides fully integrated radar warning, targeting support, and self-protection, to detect and defeat surface and airborne threats.

While F-35 is capable of stand-off jamming for other aircraft — providing 10 times the effective radiated power of any legacy fighter — F-35s can also operate in closer proximity to the threat (‘stand-in’) to provide jamming power many multiples that of any 4th Gen fighter.”

I am sure SPECTRA boasts all these things as well and claims to have active cancellation.

Active cancellation is a theoretical military jamming technique that involves the sampling of an incoming radar signal, analyzing it, then returning the signal slightly out of phase, thus “cancelling” it out due to destructive interference.

Counter-countermeasures against Active Cancellation :
  • Frequency hoping radar (active cancellation require exact information about pulses to produce cancellation pulses , thus frequency agile radar are likely unaffected ) All current AESA have frequency agility.
  • PRF jitters (cancellation pulses need to be transmitted at exact moment to produce desirable interference effect, random PRF render the jammer unable to predict when the next pulse is coming)
  • Multiple radars render Active Cancellation ineffective.
No one is going to reveal the exact nature of their EW capability. What you read on forums and blogs is very speculative at best. Bottom line is that all EW aim to degrade radar/missile engagement capacity of the enemy. All major powers employ extremely powerful systems to achieve this objective. It is a race and not a destination. But it is well known that EW supremacy is short lived and cannot win wars by itself.
What I pointed out is nobody is talking about classified info that gets leaked( on purpose maybe?), not just declassified info.
Like I said, wrt active cancelling, it is a well understood fact that SPECTRA utilizes it. I am trying to get the topic focused on capabilities of SPECTRA other than the obvious. When Lockheed Martin says the “F35 is capable of disrupting attacks with unparalleled precision”, there are features that are not publicized even for marketing purposes.
Trying to get the experts/senior members to discuss more on SPECTRA’s classified capabilities. If there is any.
BTW, EW supremacy will dominate the airspace for you. Pretty sure they are air dominance( aka war winners) in every way.
 

BON PLAN

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@IndianHawk @Armand2REP
What none of you guys are discussing is about the SPECTRA systems on the Rafale and the EW system on f35.
The reason for the Rafale even being considered to be close to the F35 is because of SPECTRA. This is a system that people have very little information about for obvious reasons(duh).
So much so that the main reason for the iaf to go for this aircraft.
Not talking just about RCS reduction here. But about jamming, blinding, spoofing etc.....and rumored in some cases to remotely hack.....no solid info that I have:eek1:
25% of the whole Rafale project fundings were used for Spectra. And Thales is not a newbie in electronic counter measures systems....
It is rumored that Spectra, not only jam, but is able to improve by 10 times the RCS of the bird, including with external stores (ie the anechoic french chamber, one of the hugest of the world, was used to test the plane with stores). Is it true? Is it false? is it so effective? ....
I personnaly ask Jean Claude Hironde, one of the Dassault key guy of the rafale project, if Spectra was able to make active cancelation. He refused to answer, with a large smile.
 

WolfPack86

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Hindustan Aeronautics Limited back on Rafale Radar, talks on for making jets in India

NEW DELHI: French aircraft manufacturer Dassault and state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics LimitedNSE -1.26 % (HAL) are in talks for possible cooperation in producing Rafale fighter jets in India for additional anticipated orders under a ‘staggered procurement’ plan.

Sources have told Economic Times that a few rounds of discussions have taken place between the companies on possible work share for additional orders of the cutting edge combat jet, though there is no going back to earlier disucssions that broke down in 2012 over differences in localisation and pricing.


The two aviation companies are old partners, having worked most recently on the $2.1 billion deal to upgrade the Indian Air Force’s Mirage 2000 fleet. If additional orders are placed for Rafale — Chief of Defence Staff Gen Bipin Rawat hinted recently that 36 more fighter jets could be ordered within four years — a work share model could be worked out to manufacture parts for the fighter jet at HAL facilities.



At present, French manufacturers are executing the order for 36 jets and investing 50% of the €7.8 billion contract price in the Indian aerospace and defence sectors as part of the offsets clause, with a factory in partnership with Reliance Defence at Nagpur also geared to produce the Falcon executive jets.

While the contours of a possible partnership have not been finalised, sources confirmed that detailed discussions have taken place on how HAL facilities and expertise could be used
for the next round of localisation when more jets are ordered.

In several comments over the past weeks, General Rawat has spoken of staggered purchases of fighter jets in the future, his idea being that small batches would be ordered to ensure that allocated funds can cover the price. The top officer also suggested that 36 more Rafales could be ordered in three to four years to make up for gaps in fighter squadron strength.

The current batch of Rafales on order are following the ‘staggered payments’ model, with India paying for 11 fighter jets ever year till deliveries end. If the contract is extended, the staggered procurement could stretch over the next few years to make up for fighter shortages.

As reported by ET, an offer is on the table for the sale of two more squadrons, which means 36 additional Rafale jets, for the IAF. While the deal for 36 Rafale jets signed in 2016 cost €7.87 billion, the additional 36 aircraft could cost significantly lower at around €6 billion as fixed costs covering India specific enhancements, training equipment and infrastructure have already been made.

The two airbases that are being created for the Rafales on order are capable of absorbing additional jets without any change, which would also bring down the cost of the deal. If the Rafale jet deal is extended with the ‘staggered order approach’ it could lead to a rethink on earlier plans of acquiring 110 fighter jets under the Strategic Partnership (SP) model that requires an Indian company to tie up with a foreign collaborates to produce the aircraft domestically.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...making-jets-in-india/articleshow/74183640.cms
 

BON PLAN

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Hindustan Aeronautics Limited back on Rafale Radar, talks on for making jets in India

NEW DELHI: French aircraft manufacturer Dassault and state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics LimitedNSE -1.26 % (HAL) are in talks for possible cooperation in producing Rafale fighter jets in India for additional anticipated orders under a ‘staggered procurement’ plan.

Sources have told Economic Times that a few rounds of discussions have taken place between the companies on possible work share for additional orders of the cutting edge combat jet, though there is no going back to earlier disucssions that broke down in 2012 over differences in localisation and pricing.


The two aviation companies are old partners, having worked most recently on the $2.1 billion deal to upgrade the Indian Air Force’s Mirage 2000 fleet. If additional orders are placed for Rafale — Chief of Defence Staff Gen Bipin Rawat hinted recently that 36 more fighter jets could be ordered within four years — a work share model could be worked out to manufacture parts for the fighter jet at HAL facilities.



At present, French manufacturers are executing the order for 36 jets and investing 50% of the €7.8 billion contract price in the Indian aerospace and defence sectors as part of the offsets clause, with a factory in partnership with Reliance Defence at Nagpur also geared to produce the Falcon executive jets.

While the contours of a possible partnership have not been finalised, sources confirmed that detailed discussions have taken place on how HAL facilities and expertise could be used
for the next round of localisation when more jets are ordered.

In several comments over the past weeks, General Rawat has spoken of staggered purchases of fighter jets in the future, his idea being that small batches would be ordered to ensure that allocated funds can cover the price. The top officer also suggested that 36 more Rafales could be ordered in three to four years to make up for gaps in fighter squadron strength.

The current batch of Rafales on order are following the ‘staggered payments’ model, with India paying for 11 fighter jets ever year till deliveries end. If the contract is extended, the staggered procurement could stretch over the next few years to make up for fighter shortages.

As reported by ET, an offer is on the table for the sale of two more squadrons, which means 36 additional Rafale jets, for the IAF. While the deal for 36 Rafale jets signed in 2016 cost €7.87 billion, the additional 36 aircraft could cost significantly lower at around €6 billion as fixed costs covering India specific enhancements, training equipment and infrastructure have already been made.

The two airbases that are being created for the Rafales on order are capable of absorbing additional jets without any change, which would also bring down the cost of the deal. If the Rafale jet deal is extended with the ‘staggered order approach’ it could lead to a rethink on earlier plans of acquiring 110 fighter jets under the Strategic Partnership (SP) model that requires an Indian company to tie up with a foreign collaborates to produce the aircraft domestically.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...making-jets-in-india/articleshow/74183640.cms
what a shame !
They don't want to take F35? strange..... maybe because India is always ready to make war, not only acrobatic show.
 

Assassin 2.0

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Dassault In Talks To Buy Out Reliance Stake In DRAL Published February 20, 2020 | By admin SOURCE: SP Guide Publications The French aircraft manufacturer Dassault is learnt to be in talks to buy out the stake of its partner Reliance in their joint venture Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL). The Reliance-appointed CEO of DRAL Sampathkumaran ST has reportedly resigned recently. Reliance Infrastructure is the majority shareholder in the 51:49 JV. This development has taken place two years ahead of the planned roll out of the fully assembled Dassault Falcon 2000 executive jet from the DRAL manufacturing facility at the Mihan SEZ in Nagpur as part of the scaling up of the discharge of offsets in the 7.87 Billion Euro Rafale fighter deal. The Reliance-appointed CEO of DRAL Sampathkumaran ST has reportedly resigned recently. Reliance Infrastructure is the majority shareholder in the 51:49 JV “Dassault is seeking a 100 per cent ownership of DRAL, as is permissible under Indian regulations. The French side is already handling all the manufacturing activity at DRAL,” an informed source confirmed to this reporter. Announced shortly after the signing of the Indo-French Government-to-Government deal for 36 Rafale fighters in 2016, the JV was intended to be “a key player in the execution of offset obligations” under the contract. The French side is to discharge 50 per cent offsets – or counter-trade obligations – by sourcing Defence and Aerospace equipment or components worth 3.9 Billion Euros from India. “Dassault is seeking a 100 per cent ownership of DRAL, as is permissible under Indian regulations. The French side is already handling all the manufacturing activity at DRAL,” an informed source confirmed to this reporter “The Joint Venture also represents a unequalled Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) by Dassault Aviation of over 100 Million Euros, the largest such Defence FDI in one location in India,” Dassault had declared in a statement. DRAL commenced manufacture of aero structures for the Falcon 2000 in 2018. “These first steps are expected to achieve in the coming years the possible setting up of final assembly of Rafale and Falcon Aircraft,” Dassault had stated. Sourcing by foreign OEMs of civil aerospace components manufactured in India are permissible for discharge of offsets in defence deals. DRAL commenced manufacture of aero structures for the Falcon 2000 in 2018. “These first steps are expected to achieve in the coming years the possible setting up of final assembly of Rafale and Falcon Aircraft,” Dassault had stated In February 2019, the first cockpit front section of the Falcon 2000 produced by DRAL was delivered to the assembly line in France as part of the global supply chain for the manufacture of the bestselling executive jet. “In parallel, larger infrastructures are being developed and will soon be completed allowing the ramp-up of DRAL capabilities toward the taking-off of an entire Falcon 2000 fully manufactured and assembled in India,” Dassault had then declared in a statement. A Falcon 2000 rollout will make this the first private sector assembly line for commercial jets in India. Reports suggest that the French aircraft manufacturer plans to assemble two jets a month at Nagpur In a video released at the recently-held DefExpo20 in Lucknow, Dassault declared that two more hangars are in the works in addition to the state-of-the-art 150,000 square feet Phase-1 facility, and that 600-700 personnel would be employed at the Nagpur facility by 2022 as part of the scaling up plans. Reports suggest that the French aircraft manufacturer plans to assemble two jets a month at Nagpur. In the meanwhile, Dassault has announced that it is now sourcing Rafale engine doors from Nagpur and pylons from Gurgaon.

This is not a good news. :creepy:

@south block enjoy.
 

Assassin 2.0

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We lose our leverage on the company.
Strategic loss of asset indian player can use the Dassault provided technology to build it's own system but that will not be possible if we give away whole share to mother company.
And in case of war or anything happens if france backs out indigenous companies can be forced to use their know how.

I think these are the main reason why government of india goes for joint venture with of foreign companies with local one's to get technological know how rather than allowing them opening their whole own factories all alone.
 

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Dassault In Talks To Buy Out Reliance Stake In DRAL Published February 20, 2020 | By admin SOURCE: SP Guide Publications The French aircraft manufacturer Dassault is learnt to be in talks to buy out the stake of its partner Reliance in their joint venture Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL). The Reliance-appointed CEO of DRAL Sampathkumaran ST has reportedly resigned recently. Reliance Infrastructure is the majority shareholder in the 51:49 JV. This development has taken place two years ahead of the planned roll out of the fully assembled Dassault Falcon 2000 executive jet from the DRAL manufacturing facility at the Mihan SEZ in Nagpur as part of the scaling up of the discharge of offsets in the 7.87 Billion Euro Rafale fighter deal. The Reliance-appointed CEO of DRAL Sampathkumaran ST has reportedly resigned recently. Reliance Infrastructure is the majority shareholder in the 51:49 JV “Dassault is seeking a 100 per cent ownership of DRAL, as is permissible under Indian regulations. The French side is already handling all the manufacturing activity at DRAL,” an informed source confirmed to this reporter. Announced shortly after the signing of the Indo-French Government-to-Government deal for 36 Rafale fighters in 2016, the JV was intended to be “a key player in the execution of offset obligations” under the contract. The French side is to discharge 50 per cent offsets – or counter-trade obligations – by sourcing Defence and Aerospace equipment or components worth 3.9 Billion Euros from India. “Dassault is seeking a 100 per cent ownership of DRAL, as is permissible under Indian regulations. The French side is already handling all the manufacturing activity at DRAL,” an informed source confirmed to this reporter “The Joint Venture also represents a unequalled Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) by Dassault Aviation of over 100 Million Euros, the largest such Defence FDI in one location in India,” Dassault had declared in a statement. DRAL commenced manufacture of aero structures for the Falcon 2000 in 2018. “These first steps are expected to achieve in the coming years the possible setting up of final assembly of Rafale and Falcon Aircraft,” Dassault had stated. Sourcing by foreign OEMs of civil aerospace components manufactured in India are permissible for discharge of offsets in defence deals. DRAL commenced manufacture of aero structures for the Falcon 2000 in 2018. “These first steps are expected to achieve in the coming years the possible setting up of final assembly of Rafale and Falcon Aircraft,” Dassault had stated In February 2019, the first cockpit front section of the Falcon 2000 produced by DRAL was delivered to the assembly line in France as part of the global supply chain for the manufacture of the bestselling executive jet. “In parallel, larger infrastructures are being developed and will soon be completed allowing the ramp-up of DRAL capabilities toward the taking-off of an entire Falcon 2000 fully manufactured and assembled in India,” Dassault had then declared in a statement. A Falcon 2000 rollout will make this the first private sector assembly line for commercial jets in India. Reports suggest that the French aircraft manufacturer plans to assemble two jets a month at Nagpur In a video released at the recently-held DefExpo20 in Lucknow, Dassault declared that two more hangars are in the works in addition to the state-of-the-art 150,000 square feet Phase-1 facility, and that 600-700 personnel would be employed at the Nagpur facility by 2022 as part of the scaling up plans. Reports suggest that the French aircraft manufacturer plans to assemble two jets a month at Nagpur. In the meanwhile, Dassault has announced that it is now sourcing Rafale engine doors from Nagpur and pylons from Gurgaon.

This is not a good news. :creepy:

@south block enjoy.
Maybe because Reliance group is in bad shape. No?
Who has the lead in this negociation? Dassault or Reliance?
 

Assassin 2.0

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Maybe because Reliance group is in bad shape. No?
Who has the lead in this negociation? Dassault or Reliance?
Reliance group is divided between two chaps. One is owned by Mukesh amabaini who is the richest man of india and he is having solid resources. And other one is owned By Anil ambani who is a failed man drowned with loans so it's The company of Anil ambani which is partnered with Dassault group.

I dunno who is leading negotiations.
 

south block

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Reliance group is divided between two chaps. One is owned by Mukesh amabaini who is the richest man of india and he is having solid resources. And other one is owned By Anil ambani who is a failed man drowned with loans so it's The company of Anil ambani which is partnered with Dassault group.

I dunno who is leading negotiations.
Mudi ji is leading negotiation ---- mudi ji giving contract to a failed bankrupt billionaire maggot due to close connection & crony kapitalism... so he can keep making money for crooks in establishment --- but Desh bhakts can't here no evil ---- can't see no evil --- Mudi ji hai to mumkin hai !
 

darshan978

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Mudi ji is leading negotiation ---- mudi ji giving contract to a failed bankrupt billionaire maggot due to close connection & crony kapitalism... so he can keep making money for crooks in establishment --- but Desh bhakts can't here no evil ---- can't see no evil --- Mudi ji hai to mumkin hai !
Porki got no right to talk about indian politics so fuck off ..
 

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