Know Your 'Rafale'

[abhay rajput]

It is less capable than Su-35.

Come on man , it's looks pretty stealthy to me especially from front , don't know about canards though.. even Americans are freaking about Chinese even though they have f35 & f22.. now please don't say Rafale is better than f35

 

[Armand2REP]

Come on man , it's looks pretty stealthy to me especially from front , don't know about canards though.. even Americans are freaking about Chinese even though they have f35 & f22.. now please don't say Rafale is better than f35

If IAF can detect it flying over Tibet and Taiwan over the SCS I doubt it is very stealthy, just look at those canards.

Su-35 will have better flight performance in all regimes, better radar, better engines and weapons. Americans aren't freaking out, if they were they would be demanding more F-22s. Even the lumbering F-35 can fly circles around this flying brick.

 

[abhay rajput]

If IAF can detect it flying over Tibet and Taiwan over the SCS I doubt it is very stealthy, just look at those canards.

Su-35 will have better flight performance in all regimes, better radar, better engines and weapons. Americans aren't freaking out, if they were they would be demanding more F-22s. Even the lumbering F-35 can fly circles around this flying brick.

And what do you think about f35 and Rafale..?

 

[Armand2REP]

And what do you think about f35 and Rafale..?

The F-35 doesn't even have a gun that shoots straight. It can't supercruise, it can't fly over an ocean without a tanker, its availability is 33% and its RAM coat blisters at the slightest heat. Just about anything accept a J-20 would destroy it in a dogfight. I think F-35 is a trillion $ turd.

 

[abhay rajput]

The F-35 doesn't even have a gun that shoots straight. It can't supercruise, it can't fly over an ocean without a tanker, its availability is 33% and its RAM coat blisters at the slightest heat. Just about anything accept a J-20 would destroy it in a dogfight. I think F-35 is a trillion $ turd.

Nonetheless f35 will shit the fuck out of both j20 and Rafale in bvr.. @death.by.chocolate he might give us American isnight

 

[Armand2REP]

Nonetheless f35 will shit the fuck out of both j20 and Rafale in bvr.. @death.by.chocolate he might give us American isnight

In order to intercept Rafale that will be supercruising the F-35 will need to use afterburner. This will blister the paint on its tailfins compromsing it's stealth. Rafale will detect it at the same time he is detected and it will be Meteor vs AMRAAM. As the F-35 will turn away to start evasive manoeuvres the impenetrable AESA lock will be lost and Spectra will easily defeat the AMRAAM's pathetic seeker with Active Cancellation. As Meteor can be targeted from multiple vectors the Rafale is free to turn for manoeuvres if needed. Meteor may or may not miss, but the aircraft will be in the merge and the dog fight begins. With a gun that can't even shoot straight and AIM-9X that are fooled by old Soviet flares... F-35 is dead.

 

[IndianHawk]

Nonetheless f35 will shit the fuck out of both j20 and Rafale in bvr.. @death.by.chocolate he might give us American isnight

Unless aim260 becomes operational f35 can't effectively use it's stealth because it can't attack enemy while remaining hidden from long range.

Current aim 120 nez will force f35 to come much closer to enemy and be vulnerable to detection thus negating stealth.

 

[Defcon 1]

In order to intercept Rafale that will be supercruising the F-35 will need to use afterburner. This will blister the paint on its tailfins compromsing it's stealth. Rafale will detect it at the same time he is detected and it will be Meteor vs AMRAAM. As the F-35 will turn away to start evasive manoeuvres the impenetrable AESA lock will be lost and Spectra will easily defeat the AMRAAM's pathetic seeker with Active Cancellation. As Meteor can be targeted from multiple vectors the Rafale is free to turn for manoeuvres if needed. Meteor may or may not miss, but the aircraft will be in the merge and the dog fight begins. With a gun that can't even shoot straight and AIM-9X that are fooled by old Soviet flares... F-35 is dead.

First of all, why is afterburner needed to intercept the Rafale? It will be detected from a longer range through ground radars and awacs and can be intercepted in time without AF

Secondly how do you know that using afterburner will blister f35s tail paint?

 

[Immanuel]

First of all, why is afterburner needed to intercept the Rafale? It will be detected from a longer range through ground radars and awacs and can be intercepted in time without AF

Secondly how do you know that using afterburner will blister f35s tail paint?

He forgets that F-35 with DAS will pick up the Rafale well over a hundred miles away. The F-35 also has better EW ability, far lower RCS and can run circles around any non-stealthy aircraft. In a balls-out fight, be it BVR or WVR, the Rafale will be supper before it ever gets it's shot out. Problem in a fight against Stealthy aircraft like F-22/35 is that they determine what the tactics will be.

 

[sorcerer]

India begins manufacturing parts for Rafale fighter jets in Nagpur

The first set of doors that cover the twin engines of the fighter jets has come out of the Nagpur facility, which is a joint venture of Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence and French firm Dassault Aviation.

To all those who doubted the make in India on Rafale..
<flip>Flip be here</flip>

 

[Armand2REP]

First of all, why is afterburner needed to intercept the Rafale? It will be detected from a longer range through ground radars and awacs and can be intercepted in time without AF

Secondly how do you know that using afterburner will blister f35s tail paint?

Rafale will be supercruising to engage targets it has been designated. An intercepting F-35 will not be directly in its path so it will need afterburner to catch up to it. In the process of doing so the stealth of F-35 will be compromised.

Secondly, it has already been reported to the US Congress that it does. It is public information.

 

[Armand2REP]

He forgets that F-35 with DAS will pick up the Rafale well over a hundred miles away. The F-35 also has better EW ability, far lower RCS and can run circles around any non-stealthy aircraft. In a balls-out fight, be it BVR or WVR, the Rafale will be supper before it ever gets it's shot out. Problem in a fight against Stealthy aircraft like F-22/35 is that they determine what the tactics will be.

You forget that Rafale is an LO aircraft, it will not be detected until within missile range. The F-35 DAS is another one of its faulty systems that often crashes and has to be rebooted. The F-35 EW might be able to jam a Meteor or MICA RF the same as Spectra jams an AMRAAM, but what it doesn't have is MICA IR which can't be jammed. Long before F-35 can fire an AIM-9X, it will be dead to MICA IR. When speaking about RF guided missiles against either of these aircraft, they are practically useless against the advanced jamming features of both. The fighter that can win at the merge wins this fight and that is Rafale.

 

[Defcon 1]

Rafale will be supercruising to engage targets it has been designated. An intercepting F-35 will not be directly in its path so it will need afterburner to catch up to it. In the process of doing so the stealth of F-35 will be compromised.

Secondly, it has already been reported to the US Congress that it does. It is public information.

Didn't know about the US Congress thing. Will take your word for it.

The point I am making is regardless of whether the F35 is directly in the path of Rafale or not, it will never have to "catch up" to it since rafale will be detected before it has crossed f35 and f35 can always take a shorter route to intercept it without using AF. Btw since the Rafale is an aggressor here, it will most probably be armed with A2G loadout, and thus being rendered incapable of supercruise itself.

 

[Armand2REP]

Didn't know about the US Congress thing. Will take your word for it.

The point I am making is regardless of whether the F35 is directly in the path of Rafale or not, it will never have to "catch up" to it since rafale will be detected before it has crossed f35 and f35 can always take a shorter route to intercept it without using AF. Btw since the Rafale is an aggressor here, it will most probably be armed with A2G loadout, and thus being rendered incapable of supercruise itself.

How could Rafale be the aggressor if they don't know that it is there? If Rafale is going on an aggressor mission it will be penetrating hostile airspace at low altitude. F-35 wouldn't see anything unless it is WVR. The only way F-35 sees Rafale at full BVR is if it is at altitude with its pylons exposed to the angle of the radar return. If that is the case it is at supercruise.

 

[Bhurki]

Rafale is an LO aircraft

O K

 

[Bhurki]

Even if we consider that somehow a GaAs T/R module on RBE2 Aesa is at same power rating as compared to GaN module of apg81 which is highly unlikely,
Rbe2 has only 838 modules, while apg81 has 1676 modules.
That results in 2 x peak power.

F35 rcs is atleast 1000 times lower than rafale (1 vs 0.001) even by the most conservative sources.

That results in 12 times (1000^1/4 x 2) reduced search radius.
Rafale will keep on afterburning in circles trying to find F35 within limited search circle of some 30 km while F35 will not just find but also track rafale at 150+ km.

 

[Armand2REP]

RBE2 Aesa is at same power rating as compared to GaN module of apg81 which is highly unlikely,

They both use GaAs modules. GaN is for future upgrades.

F35 rcs is atleast 1000 times lower than rafale (1 vs 0.001) even by the most conservative sources.

F-35 RCS is compromised using afterburner for more than 30 seconds. Rafale is 0.1m^2 from top aspect while compromised F-35 is probably the same. Blistering paint is no good just as a gun that doesn't shoot straight or a DAS that must be rebooted every couple of hours of operation.

Rafale will keep on afterburning in circles trying to find F35 within limited search circle of some 30 km while F35 will not just find but also track rafale at 150+ km.

Rafale strategy is to have one flying high using supercruise to bait while the other flies low to pop up a missile behind the aircraft dumb enough to chase them.

 

[Wisemarko]

f35 can't effectively use it's stealth because it can't attack enemy while remaining hidden from long range.

Why Rafale fanboys have to badmouth F-35 in order to look good? That insecurity is very evident in this “Rafale thread” where most talk is about how “bad” F-35 is!

Some basics of stealth: (also take some time to see the image above and look at the ranges. Also, the detection range is for a maximum-power, narrow-angle search. In conventional search mode, the detection range is down by 50%.)

It sounds like Rafale is somehow made ”almost” stealth by making fanciful claims. In BVR combat against a true 5th Gen stealth aircraft, these legacy fighters will never know what hit them.

Here’s some declassified info:
The RCS of 1 or 0.1 m2 (which Rafale claims) doesn’t really matter to modern airborne radars. Even 0.05 is too much. Because even at that level of stealth, targets can be identified at max launch range of BVR A2A. Only exponential level of stealth can change the BVR combat.

The F-35 RCS is compared to a “golf ball” and the F-22’s to “a marble”; these objects have RCS of 0.0013 m2 and 0.0002 m2, respectively. That is exponential growth in stealth and for each decimal increase, detection range goes down by ~40%. (0.1 M2 RCS of Rafale will get detected at over 100km by Irbis-E and much earlier with AESA). So, in order to launch A2A first without risking passive engagement, stealth must be in 0.001 M2 range.

The meaning of all this is that F-35 doesn’t need very long range missiles or afterburner use to sneak up on unsuspecting 4th Gen fighters. It can get really close and fire within no escape zone of AMRAAM or even Sidewinder. The only time Rafale or Eurofighter can detect F-35 is when bay opens to fire the missile- too late.

 

[abhay rajput]

I have a question doesn't radars emissions are detectable.. I mean sure low probability of intercept aesa radars are good but I mean when they are tracking and guiding missiles to the target aircraft..?

 

[Bhurki]

They both use GaAs modules. GaN is for future upgrades.



F-35 RCS is compromised using afterburner for more than 30 seconds. Rafale is 0.1m^2 from top aspect while compromised F-35 is probably the same. Blistering paint is no good just as a gun that doesn't shoot straight or a DAS that must be rebooted every couple of hours of operation.



Rafale strategy is to have one flying high using supercruise to bait while the other flies low to pop up a missile behind the aircraft dumb enough to chase them.

So choosing the best conditions for rafale and worst conditions for f35..