Know Your 'Rafale'

asianobserve

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It's not exactly a good summary :
"The F-16 is pretty cool. Typhoon is a joke, very easy to shoot. F-16 actually was a good surprise actually, I found it to be a pretty good aircraft. I think the most challenging was the F-16, it’s a pretty small jet so it’s easy to lose sight of it. So I think that was the big one."
=> ie EF is easy to shot. F16 is the hardest nut, a good (so a bad) surprise for a "old" plane, but just "challenging".

Sustainment cost is a paramete among others. Indian MMRCA field test pilots and top brass were surprised to see a Rafale flying 5 missions when all the competitors did 3.
Note that the French pilot said that Typhoon was a "joke," meaning Rafale dominates over it in WVR. But he did not use any derisive or demeaning term when it comes to F-16. Instead, he said "it's pretty cool." So however you spin it the F-16 is a match or could even be better than Rafale in WVR.
 
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Immanuel

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Meteor will not be fitted on Tejas.
The export rules of Meteor are quite hard : no integration on a non european or US radar.
Meteor is scheduled for implementation on F-35 block 4 which has a US radar. However, Meteor has been ruled out for Tejas.
 

BON PLAN

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Note that the French pilot said that Typhoon was a "joke," meaning Rafale dominates over it in WVR. But he did not use any derisive or demeaning term when it comes to F-16. Instead, he said "it's pretty cool." So however you spin it the F-16 is a match or could even be better than Rafale in WVR.
There was so many trainings between F16 and Rafale.... Instantaneous turn rate, sustained turn rate, T/W ration of Rafale are better. So F16 is the westerrn hardest nut in WVR, but the sole western plane better than rafale is F22.
 

BON PLAN

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Meteor is scheduled for implementation on F-35 block 4 which has a US radar. However, Meteor has been ruled out for Tejas.
Exact.
Meteor is free of integration with US and Europen radar. Not for russian and Israeli ones (that's why Tejas in the actual form will not have it). And the real status with indigenous Indian radar is not clear.
 

Armand2REP

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Only 1 of the systems ( yaogan 9 launched in 2010) is out of commission.
The average age for systems is 8 years.
You are free to check the NORAD satellite database to see how you're wrong.
Actually the very first Yaogan 1 exploded 3 years after launch and was only rated for two years. The second generation of Yaogan are based on the CAST2000 satellite platform which has a listed life span of only 3 years.

The reason China has to launch so many satellites is because they continually break down far sooner than Thales satellites. Why do you think France exports more satellites than China? Quality > Quantity
 

BON PLAN

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https://eurasiantimes.com/jf-17-vs-...serious-threat-to-indian-rafale-fighter-jets/

36 Rafales Not Enough to Beat Pakistan Air Force: Indian Air Force Chief

Indian Air Force chief Rakesh Kumar Bhadauria has issued a strong warning to the political leaders of India, as $7.8billion Rafale jet is insufficient to meet the country’s defence requirements. India previously signed a $7.8billion contract with French Dassault Aviation to buy the aircraft in 2019.

However, Indian Air Force (IAF) veteran, Vijainder Thakur, believes it is the best aircraft in the forces’ inventory now. He said: “The IAF allowed itself to be outgunned by focusing on platform acquisitions, rather than weapon system and sensor upgrades. The technical advantage gained by the IAF through the acquisition of the Rafale would be transient because it would be based largely on the weapon systems and sensors of the Rafale.
 

BON PLAN

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JF-17 vs Rafale: Why Pakistani JF-17 Thunder Poses A Serious Threat To Indian Rafale Fighter Jets?

According to the Global Times and secondary research by the EurAsian Times, the latest, powered-up version of the JF-17 fighter jet reportedly features technologies from China’s high-end J-20 fighter jet that will immensely boost its combat efficiency.

According to pictures disseminated on various social media platform, the JF-17 aircraft is installed with many commercial off-the-shelf technologies from the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China.

These include a new and larger holographic wide-angle head-up display and integrated cockpit display comparable to the one used by the J-20, in addition to an advanced infrared missile approach warning system used by J-20 fighter jets.


Analysts said the new additions to the JF-17 can give pilots more situational awareness, permitting them to concentrate more on combat instead of flying the aircraft. In March 2019, Yang Wei, chief designer of the fighter jet, said development and production of the JF-17 Block 3 were underway, and the third block will see the JF-17’s information-based warfare capability and weapons enhanced.


PL-15 Missiles For JF-17 :

The reports regarding the deployment of longer-ranged Chinese PL-15 missiles on an upgraded JF-17 jet have caused anxiety in the Indian Air Force. Global Times earlier reported that the upgraded JF-17 will host an infrared search and track system along with a cross-section radar that lessens the pseudo-stealthy airframe. The PL-15’s beyond visual range missile has reportedly also caused serious worry in the Pentagon.

The PL-15’s striking range in actual aerial engagements is definitely lower than the maximum range 300 km but is nevertheless much greater than its US’ AIM-120 AMRAAM estimated to be approximately 180 km. (this is max useless range. Only the No Escape Zone is interesting, and far far less !!!)

US general Herbert Carlisle voiced serious concerns in 2015 when the development of the PL-15 entered the public domain: “Look at our adversaries and what they’re developing, things like the PL-15 and the range of that weapon.” General Carlisle raised the same issue in an interview with FlightGlobal: “The PL-15 and the range of that missile, we’ve got to be able to out-stick that missile.”

The PL-15 missile, which is a radar-guided weapon, is advertised as having a greater range than both US-built AMRAAM and the Russian R-77, which is in service with the Indian Air Force.


With a length of over 4metres, the PL-15 is much longer than the AMRAAM and has a powerful radar and rocket motor. Experts writing for EurAsian Times maintain that the fundamental role of the PL-15 is to demolish ‘high-value’ targets such as airborne early-warning aircraft (AWACS) and aerial refuelling aircraft, which could handicap any opponent including the US.

The PL-15 uses a conventional rocket motor, unlike the Meteor missile which will be used by the Rafale fighter jets for the IAF. The Meteor has a stated range of “well in excess of 150km” according to its manufacturers but is also smaller in length than the PL-15.

Therefore, experts talking to the EurAsian Times conclude that the PL-15 has greater range than the Meteor on account of its higher fuel capacity and poses a serious threat to the French origin jets which will be operated by the Indian Air Force
 

south block

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https://eurasiantimes.com/jf-17-vs-...serious-threat-to-indian-rafale-fighter-jets/

36 Rafales Not Enough to Beat Pakistan Air Force: Indian Air Force Chief

Indian Air Force chief Rakesh Kumar Bhadauria has issued a strong warning to the political leaders of India, as $7.8billion Rafale jet is insufficient to meet the country’s defence requirements. India previously signed a $7.8billion contract with French Dassault Aviation to buy the aircraft in 2019.

However, Indian Air Force (IAF) veteran, Vijainder Thakur, believes it is the best aircraft in the forces’ inventory now. He said: “The IAF allowed itself to be outgunned by focusing on platform acquisitions, rather than weapon system and sensor upgrades. The technical advantage gained by the IAF through the acquisition of the Rafale would be transient because it would be based largely on the weapon systems and sensors of the Rafale.
I asked you a question on another thread about meteor --- you didn't answer.
 

Tactical Frog

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https://eurasiantimes.com/jf-17-vs-...serious-threat-to-indian-rafale-fighter-jets/

36 Rafales Not Enough to Beat Pakistan Air Force: Indian Air Force Chief

Indian Air Force chief Rakesh Kumar Bhadauria has issued a strong warning to the political leaders of India, as $7.8billion Rafale jet is insufficient to meet the country’s defence requirements. India previously signed a $7.8billion contract with French Dassault Aviation to buy the aircraft in 2019.

However, Indian Air Force (IAF) veteran, Vijainder Thakur, believes it is the best aircraft in the forces’ inventory now. He said: “The IAF allowed itself to be outgunned by focusing on platform acquisitions, rather than weapon system and sensor upgrades. The technical advantage gained by the IAF through the acquisition of the Rafale would be transient because it would be based largely on the weapon systems and sensors of the Rafale.
Wow... IAF chief never stated that 36 Rafale not enough to beat Pakistan Air Force.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...me-changer-iaf-chief/articleshow/74402257.cms
 

Assassin 2.0

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JF-17 vs Rafale: Why Pakistani JF-17 Thunder Poses A Serious Threat To Indian Rafale Fighter Jets?

According to the Global Times and secondary research by the EurAsian Times, the latest, powered-up version of the JF-17 fighter jet reportedly features technologies from China’s high-end J-20 fighter jet that will immensely boost its combat efficiency.

According to pictures disseminated on various social media platform, the JF-17 aircraft is installed with many commercial off-the-shelf technologies from the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China.

These include a new and larger holographic wide-angle head-up display and integrated cockpit display comparable to the one used by the J-20, in addition to an advanced infrared missile approach warning system used by J-20 fighter jets.


Analysts said the new additions to the JF-17 can give pilots more situational awareness, permitting them to concentrate more on combat instead of flying the aircraft. In March 2019, Yang Wei, chief designer of the fighter jet, said development and production of the JF-17 Block 3 were underway, and the third block will see the JF-17’s information-based warfare capability and weapons enhanced.


PL-15 Missiles For JF-17 :

The reports regarding the deployment of longer-ranged Chinese PL-15 missiles on an upgraded JF-17 jet have caused anxiety in the Indian Air Force. Global Times earlier reported that the upgraded JF-17 will host an infrared search and track system along with a cross-section radar that lessens the pseudo-stealthy airframe. The PL-15’s beyond visual range missile has reportedly also caused serious worry in the Pentagon.

The PL-15’s striking range in actual aerial engagements is definitely lower than the maximum range 300 km but is nevertheless much greater than its US’ AIM-120 AMRAAM estimated to be approximately 180 km. (this is max useless range. Only the No Escape Zone is interesting, and far far less !!!)

US general Herbert Carlisle voiced serious concerns in 2015 when the development of the PL-15 entered the public domain: “Look at our adversaries and what they’re developing, things like the PL-15 and the range of that weapon.” General Carlisle raised the same issue in an interview with FlightGlobal: “The PL-15 and the range of that missile, we’ve got to be able to out-stick that missile.”

The PL-15 missile, which is a radar-guided weapon, is advertised as having a greater range than both US-built AMRAAM and the Russian R-77, which is in service with the Indian Air Force.


With a length of over 4metres, the PL-15 is much longer than the AMRAAM and has a powerful radar and rocket motor. Experts writing for EurAsian Times maintain that the fundamental role of the PL-15 is to demolish ‘high-value’ targets such as airborne early-warning aircraft (AWACS) and aerial refuelling aircraft, which could handicap any opponent including the US.

The PL-15 uses a conventional rocket motor, unlike the Meteor missile which will be used by the Rafale fighter jets for the IAF. The Meteor has a stated range of “well in excess of 150km” according to its manufacturers but is also smaller in length than the PL-15.

Therefore, experts talking to the EurAsian Times conclude that the PL-15 has greater range than the Meteor on account of its higher fuel capacity and poses a serious threat to the French origin jets which will be operated by the Indian Air Force
Chinese PL-15 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) will knock Indian fighter jets out of airspace from nearly 200 kms and will render European-origin MBDA Meteor missile which India is acquiring for its Dassault Rafale useless is the latest scaremongering which has been peddled recently by few in the Indian defense community, most likely to favor imports of more long-range BVRAAMs,even when IAF Chief clearly confirmed that with induction of Astra which he confirmed is at par with American AIM-120C-5 both in range and specification, will get further boost India’s air to air capabilities when MBDA Meteor AAMs will join the air force this May with deliveries of Dassault Rafale . PL-15 is significantly longer than the AMRAAM With a length of over 4 metres but it still uses a conventional rocket motor and as per footage of the PL-15 missile being carried on the Shenyang J-16 it seems its much-touted greater range than contemporary systems like the US-built AMRAAM and Russian Vympel R-77 (AA-12 ‘Adder’) is due to additional booster and dual-motor and it doesn’t look it will have range of 200kms for a fighter-sized aircraft. For a long-range BVRAAM to engage and target a fighter-sized target, it requires a large amount of fuel/propellant to sustain changes and bleed energy to sustain its capabilities to target a maneuverable target like a fighter jet, while a lot of accredited claims of the PL-15 from the Chinese media which is known to hype its weapons system to mythical proposition, many western and Indian analyst believe that PL-15 has no next generation air-breathing ramjet motor nor it looks like it has a greater maneuverability as it approaches a target then it contemporaries. While most agree that PL-15 might still have a range of 200 km for a wide-bodied aircraft like AWACS, Flight Refueling Aircraft (FRA) and Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) which usually fly deep inside its airspace and can be an effective weapon platform which can be used to target force multipliers of India in event of war and supply of such weapons to the Pakistan in near future is inevitable, but same can’t be said against a fighter size target, but PL-15 is still has improved air to air missile technology coming out of China and with improved AESA Seeker and improved Electronic counter-countermeasures (ECCM) still is dangerous towards a fighter jets in its range and India needs to fast track its development of Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR) which will have a range of 340 km and Air-to-Air variant of BrahMos-A will have a range of 500km range.


(Chinese propaganda is promoting PL-15 but in reality it's just another junk)
 

Indrajit

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https://eurasiantimes.com/jf-17-vs-...serious-threat-to-indian-rafale-fighter-jets/

36 Rafales Not Enough to Beat Pakistan Air Force: Indian Air Force Chief

Indian Air Force chief Rakesh Kumar Bhadauria has issued a strong warning to the political leaders of India, as $7.8billion Rafale jet is insufficient to meet the country’s defence requirements. India previously signed a $7.8billion contract with French Dassault Aviation to buy the aircraft in 2019.

However, Indian Air Force (IAF) veteran, Vijainder Thakur, believes it is the best aircraft in the forces’ inventory now. He said: “The IAF allowed itself to be outgunned by focusing on platform acquisitions, rather than weapon system and sensor upgrades. The technical advantage gained by the IAF through the acquisition of the Rafale would be transient because it would be based largely on the weapon systems and sensors of the Rafale.
36 Rafales are insufficient to meet our defence requirements....essentially that means the rest of the airforce is full of useless junk, including the Su30 MKI....ever since Balakot, the IAF chief(s) and politicians including the PM have just said...if only we had the Rafale...an extraordinary statement suggesting that every other platform in the IAF is crap. In their rush to sing praises of the Rafale, they have reduced the IAF to a laughing stock. Sure 36 isn’t enough, maybe 200 isn’t enough....unless the chief has a plan to spin cotton to gold, this is what we can afford.
 

BON PLAN

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So however you spin it the F-16 is a match or could even be better than Rafale in WVR
Rafale, Gripen and F22, are the best WVR fighters of the west world.
(F16 was a nice dog fighter of its time, but at the beginning it was lighter... A more powerfull engine is one thing, but the wings remain the same....)

Probably like that : Gripen < Rafale < F22. Gripen has the same effective close coupled delta canard config than Rafale, but suffer of lower T/W ratio
 

asianobserve

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Rafale, Gripen and F22, are the best WVR fighters of the west world.
(F16 was a nice dog fighter of its time, but at the beginning it was lighter... A more powerfull engine is one thing, but the wings remain the same....)

Probably like that : Gripen < Rafale < F22. Gripen has the same effective close coupled delta canard config than Rafale, but suffer of lower T/W ratio

Between your words and that French Rafale pilot, I'm sorry but there's simply no issue. According to him F-16 is "pretty cool."

Besides, F-16 wings is superior to Rafale's delta in dogfighting WVR maneuvers. It has higher sustained turn rate, roll rate and losses energy less than wide delta wings in maneuvers. Plus the small size of the F-16 makes it hard to spot in dogfights.
 

BON PLAN

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What's the range of meteor from particular altitude say on sea level , 2km, 8km, 12km & on ? Give NEZ on all those altitude also.
Nice question. I haven't the detailed answer.

The sole info nearly officials are :
Meteor has 2 to 3x the NEZ of contemporary medium range AA missile (ie AMRAAM C5).
its NEZ > 60km (but in what condition ??? same for all missiles).
 

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