Know Your 'Rafale'

[Gessler]

Moron, AEWACS can control firing of missiles (BVR) and even guide fighter aircrafts in their mission. So, there is an element of fire control. That is why there is a C in AEWACS (Aerial Early Warning and Control System).

Yeah...do fire control with AEW radar. By the time you get the target location update in the 2nd ping, it would be hopelessly out of reach of any BVR missile's NEZ.

Why do you think X band was developed in first place? If long-wavelength radars like Chain Home can do fire control all on their own?

What is the range of the long tower mounted L band radar?

The tower antenna is VLF/ELF you fool.

I was giving an example of how different wavelength requires different size of antenna in order to generate waveform. You cannot generate longer wavelengths like L band using the nose radar on fighters - which is only big enough to generate X band or smaller wavelengths like K/Ka band.

That is the basic point you are incapable of understanding.

Also, do you know that we can have L band radar on Su30 too but it would juts not have the resolution of X band? However, it can still detect bogies, just not its coordinates. So, a general alert can be issued without specifically giving the location of the bogey.

It would if you actually put said L band radars on the wing leading edges as done on Su-35 or Su-57. Where they can have enough length to generate the waveform.

You cannot put an L band radar in the nose - there is not enough space.

Secondly, do you even understand what resolution is in terms of radar? You would not have quoted such a foolish statement as saying BARS radar has L-band transmitter if you did.

First learn about how radars work. Know that even hand held radios can emit radiowaves and receive radowaves too. It is all about resolution and accuracy that will need different size of radar.

Abhe gadhe...it appears you haven't a clue about radio in first place. Hand held two-way radios operate in VHF/UHF bands. Which are high frequency and have very short wavelengths relatively - of the kind a small antenna on handheld radio is capable of transmitting.

You want to transmit L band using handheld radio?

Never seen such idiocy.

 

[vishwaprasad]

What were these results on 27th feb ?

They (MKI's) were on run with their tail between legs to save themselves from F-16s

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

OK. From research to full scale production, there is a long road.
A research T/R can be big, poorly reliable, costier. A production one need to be small (tu put a max in the nose), reliable, affordable.
In Europe it takes a while. We were dependant of USA, and found after beeing self dependant that they delivered us 2nd choice modules....

We have been researching on GaAs for 15-20 years now. We have the TR modules manufacturing As I said, it is made in GAETEC, Hyderabad.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Personal attacks will be reported to MODS... stop spreading fake propaganda like India was not amazed by Rafale AESA without any proof.... So called mighty MKI and NETRA were so helpless on 27th Feb and still India is amazed of them as per you......

Wah! How retarded! Only according to your Ghafoora did MKI be shot down. And you being a good stooge of him, are following it as commandment. None else cares for such propaganda

Yeah...do fire control with AEW radar. By the time you get the target location update in the 2nd ping, it would be hopelessly out of reach of any BVR missile's NEZ.

Why do you think X band was developed in first place? If long-wavelength radars like Chain Home can do fire control all on their own?

Did I say X band is not needed? I am only saying that L band is inaccurate and can't give the position clearly but it has longer detecion range. It is like you hearing someone moving around but not knowing where sound is coming from. Do you have comprehension issue?

It would if you actually put said L band radars on the wing leading edges as done on Su-35 or Su-57.

You cannot put an L band radar in the nose - there is not enough space.

Secondly, do you even understand what resolution is in terms of radar? You would not have quoted such a foolish statement as saying BARS radar has L-band transmitter in you did.

I hope you understand the meaning of resolution in my context. But that is too much hopes

Abhe gadhe...it appears you haven't a clue about radio in first place. Hand held two-way radios operate in VHF/UHF bands. Which are high frequency and have very short wavelengths relatively - of the kind a small antenna on handheld radio is capable of transmitting.

You want to transmit L band using handheld radio?

UHF is 300MHZ - 1GHZ while L band is 1-2GHZ. VHF is even lower at 30MHZ - 300MHZ. How does L band have longer wavelength when it has higher frequency than VHF & UHF? Do you know that the formula of EM waves is:
Velocity of transmission = frequency x WaveLength

So, more the frequency, lower the wavelength

If you don't know, don't talk. Stop irritating people by talking nonsense.

 

[Gessler]

Wah! How retarded! Only according to your Ghafoora did MKI be shot down. And you being a good stooge of him, are following it as commandment. None else cares for such propaganda


Did I say X band is not needed? I am only saying that L band is inaccurate and can't give the position clearly but it has longer detecion range. It is like you hearing someone moving around but not knowing where sound is coming from. Do you have comprehension issue?


I hope you understand the meaning of resolution in my context. But that is too much hopes


UHF is 300MHZ - 1GHZ while L band is 1-2GHZ. VHF is even lower at 30MHZ - 300MHZ. How does L band have longer wavelength when it has higher frequency than VHF & UHF? Do you know that the formula of EM waves is:
Velocity of transmission = frequency x WaveLength

So, more the frequency, lower the wavelength

If you don't know, don't talk. Stop irritating people by talking nonsense.

Sure go and do Fire control with L band/S band AEW radars.

Use hand held radios to transmit L bands.

And use N011M to transmit VLF and communicate with INS Arihant.

I can't argue with that logic.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Sure go and do Fire control with L band/S band AEW radars.

Use hand held radios to transmit L bands.

And use N011M to transmit VLF and communicate with INS Arihant.

I can't argue with that logic.

You have mental problems and seem to invent new things. Obviously none can argue with mental people as the logic changes every 5 minutes.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Who told you India is not amazed with Rafale AESA???? India has chosen this fighter over all other jets.... And stop bragging about MKI's extreamly powerful radar and NETRA AESA radar... results from both we have seen on 27th Feb.... Rafale is totally out of league for MKI....

Can you please stop spreading gibberish about 27th? Everytime you specifically mention 27th and how the MKi supposedly failed. Again, it is important to understand that both AF had different objectives. The PAF had the objective of bombing Indian military bases. The IAF had the duty of defending Indian air space. The PAF failed to bomb the military establishments. The PAF also did not incurse into Indian air space. On both counts they failed. They managed to down a MiG 21. Put another way they failed their original objective but managed to kill one outdated air frame, and thats what they were proud of. Ask the PAF what happened to the second pilot. First he was at CMH, then he died, then he became communication error in the fog of war.

 

[Gessler]

You have mental problems and seem to invent new things. Obviously none can argue with mental people as the logic changes every 5 minutes.

Only one with mental problems are those who believe the N011M can generate both X and L band waveforms.

That someone should probably go and remind Tikhomirov about this...the poor fools there are wasting their time installing L band antennas on long wing leading edges. Someone should remind them that they had already found a way to get the main radar itself to transmit L band 20 years ago!

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Yeah...do fire control with AEW radar. By the time you get the target location update in the 2nd ping, it would be hopelessly out of reach of any BVR missile's NEZ.

Why do you think X band was developed in first place? If long-wavelength radars like Chain Home can do fire control all on their own?



The tower antenna is VLF/ELF you fool.

I was giving an example of how different wavelength requires different size of antenna in order to generate waveform. You cannot generate longer wavelengths like L band using the nose radar on fighters - which is only big enough to generate X band or smaller wavelengths like K/Ka band.

That is the basic point you are incapable of understanding.



It would if you actually put said L band radars on the wing leading edges as done on Su-35 or Su-57. Where they can have enough length to generate the waveform.

You cannot put an L band radar in the nose - there is not enough space.

Secondly, do you even understand what resolution is in terms of radar? You would not have quoted such a foolish statement as saying BARS radar has L-band transmitter if you did.



Abhe gadhe...it appears you haven't a clue about radio in first place. Hand held two-way radios operate in VHF/UHF bands. Which are high frequency and have very short wavelengths relatively - of the kind a small antenna on handheld radio is capable of transmitting.

You want to transmit L band using handheld radio?

Never seen such idiocy.

L band has a wavelength of 15-30 cm. In order for an antenna to properly detect a frequency, it must have a length of (2n + 1)1/4 wavelength. So for 15cm the smallest antenna is actually 15/4 = 3.75cm Similaryly for 30cm the smallest is 7.5cm. The L band is actually used by LTE for mobile communnications. However, as you said, L band can't be used for fire control. So the usefulness of L band in a fighter is questionable. The problem with L band is low angular frequency, which is why the large antennae are necessary. So in a way, you are both right.

See also this thread on F-16.net: http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20005

 

[Gessler]

L band has a wavelength of 15-30 cm. In order for an antenna to properly detect a frequency, it must have a length of (2n + 1)1/4 wavelength. So for 15cm the smallest antenna is actually 15/4 = 3.75cm Similaryly for 30cm the smallest is 7.5cm. The L band is actually used by LTE for mobile communnications. However, as you said, L band can't be used for fire control. So the usefulness of L band in a fighter is questionable. The problem with L band is low angular frequency, which is why the large antennae are necessary. So in a way, you are both right.

See also this thread on F-16.net: http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20005

The problem is transmitting that on an antenna form factor designed for X band (2.5 to 3.7 cm).

 

[gryphus-scarface]

They (MKI's) were on run with their tail between legs to save themselves from F-16s

According to you and you alone. Firing AIM 120C well out of its NEZ is not considered good by any reasonable air force. They just wasted $3.3 mil per missile.

 

[Gessler]

They (MKI's) were on run with their tail between legs to save themselves from F-16s

They did not engage because ROE prevented them from doing so.

 

[Kchontha]

This thread is corrupted, where are the moderators?!!

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

 

[aghamarshana]

For those whosoever may concern, 27th was done with utmost professionalism. IAF made every Indian proud. We didn't fire a single AAM frm MKIs, we made the Fuckin Solahs bug off after firin AMRAAMs blindly as Parthu bro jus mentioned. There is no point in comparin Flanker and Rafale.
Even after Rafale's induction,MKIs will remain the backbone of the fleet.
And don't give credit to PAF pilots who panicked the moment they saw a Bison and fired BVRs. No comparision between F16 and MKI and the respective pilots too.
Our boys are the best in biz.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Only one with mental problems are those who believe the N011M can generate both X and L band waveforms.

That someone should probably go and remind Tikhomirov about this...the poor fools there are wasting their time installing L band antennas on long wing leading edges. Someone should remind them that they had already found a way to get the main radar itself to transmit L band 20 years ago!

I have told clearly that there are 2 set of antennaes, not one. If this is not clear, what is? The nose cone of MKI is 1 meter in diameter. It is big enough to fit L band antennae. Son't talk gibberish. Even after proving that UHF is loger wavelength than L band, you still keep talking nonsense. You have extremely low IQ and beyond hope of being reasonable

 

[Gessler]

I have told clearly that there are 2 set of antennaes, not one. If this is not clear, what is? The nose cone of MKI is 1 meter in diameter. It is big enough to fit L band antennae. Son't talk gibberish. Even after proving that UHF is loger wavelength than L band, you still keep talking nonsense. You have extremely low IQ and beyond hope of being reasonable

The L band antenna you keep harping about is an IFF transponder antenna, not radar. Those dipoles sticking out of the array:

All fighter jets in the world have IFF antenna that transmit in long wavelength bands so as to reach all aircraft in vicinity. The BARS complex is not unique in that respect - all modern jets are capable of IFF interrogation.

I don't know what to say if you go off thinking that Su-30 is only aircraft in the world capable of IFF interrogation

 

[Picard]

Sorry to butt in, but...

Moron, AEWACS can control firing of missiles (BVR) and even guide fighter aircrafts in their mission. So, there is an element of fire control. That is why there is a C in AEWACS (Aerial Early Warning and Control System).

Eh, no. First, it is AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System), though it is also apparently called AEW&C. But "AEWACS" is not a thing. Second, "control" here refers to AWACS' role as command and control / coordination centre for fighter aircraft. Now, AWACS may be able to provide firing solutions and guidance tracks to missiles, but that is not system's purpose. Fighter guidance is.

What is the range of the long tower mounted L band radar? Also, do you know that we can have L band radar on Su30 too but it would juts not have the resolution of X band? However, it can still detect bogies, just not its coordinates. So, a general alert can be issued without specifically giving the location of the bogey.

First learn about how radars work. Know that even hand held radios can emit radiowaves and receive radowaves too. It is all about resolution and accuracy that will need different size of radar.

You think you know things? May be you know useless things but definitely not up to the mark.

To have useful resolution, as well as to be able to generate signal in the first place, antenna size is dependent on frequency. There is a reason why HF / over-the-horizon radars cover large areas of ground with antennas.

Also, electronically-scanned beams have frequency limits which also relate to size of both radar and T/R elements as well, since scanning is done via signal interference.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Can someone here explain how SPECTRA's active cancellation would work against an AESA radar? I know how active cancellation works in things like headphones, but I'm having a hard time seeing how SPECTRA would be able to react fast enough to effectively cancel out waves that travel at the speed of light. Can it effectively cancel out AESA radar waves?

 

[no smoking]

The PAF had the objective of bombing Indian military bases.

No unless they wanted to escalate the situation into war. They only wanted a propaganda revenge.

The PAF also did not incurse into Indian air space. On both counts they failed.

Entering Indian air space is not victory. But PAF did get in, otherwise you can't explain why Indian Mig-21 was lured into Pakistan sky.

They managed to down a MiG 21. Put another way they failed their original objective but managed to kill one outdated air frame, and thats what they were proud of.

Killing is killing. In the past 2 decades, most of USAF killing were outdated planes which were not upgraded as India's Mig-21. Do they feel less proud? Of course not.

The real questions people should ask are:
Where was the wing man of that pilot?
How this mig-21 was isolated from the Su-30 which was supposed to protect it?

Ask the PAF what happened to the second pilot. First he was at CMH, then he died, then he became communication error in the fog of war.

Nothing to surprise about this fog. Different departments made their own report separately. This kind of error happens all the time especially when your Prime Minister wanted to make a big show in front of world press in hours.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

No unless they wanted to escalate the situation into war. They only wanted a propaganda revenge.

So the PAF wanted to waste fuel and ammunition, both of which are expensive, to intentionally miss their targets as a warning? I doubt that. Pakistan can't afford to waste ammunitions. They can't afford to waste sorties like that.

Entering Indian air space is not victory. But PAF did get in, otherwise you can't explain why Indian Mig-21 was lured into Pakistan sky.

They might have barely gotten in before they were bounced by the MiG 21s.

Killing is killing. In the past 2 decades, most of USAF killing were outdated planes which were not upgraded as India's Mig-21. Do they feel less proud? Of course not.

I guess. Except that they failed their primary objective of bombing Indian military bases.

The real questions people should ask are:
Where was the wing man of that pilot?
How this mig-21 was isolated from the Su-30 which was supposed to protect it?

The accepted version of events is that Abhinandan flew away from his wingman to get his kill, but that meant he had no cover.

Nothing to surprise about this fog. Different departments made their own report separately. This kind of error happens all the time especially when your Prime Minister wanted to make a big show in front of world press in hours.

Right. He's the DG ISPR. He makes tweets based on random evidence. The PM makes statements and tweets without verifying. It takes 2 mins for them to make these claims but an entire day to realise there was a mistake. Not buying the fog of war BS one bit. See also : https://idrw.org/ispr-spokesperson-...d-to-a-pakistani-media-outlet-but-who-was-he/

I do remember another interview in which he explicitly stated the second pilot had passed away.

We are getting seriously OT here though. Feel free to continue this argument in a more appropriate thread.