Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

Nah nah nah. This conditional waiver doesn’t change anything.

Lol, again mate you need to get over your bias, to see things clearly.
The US need strategic allies between the IOR and the Pacific to counter China. Especially India has a high strategic value to their defence and that's why they will think twice before losing out on us. Also you have to understand that this is an internal US political problem, since the Democrats wants to show Trump rejecting this, to look week against Russia. At the end of the day, strategic needs and the US arms lobby will dictate foreign policy.

 

[Armand2REP]

"They" didn't went for 36 Rafales, the PM did! Neither MoD nor IAF wanted that deal.




Nonsense, even Parrikar confirmed that the budget was available, but he wanted to spend it on MKIs and LCAs instead.



SPM (strategic partnership model), is a procurement policy in the DPP 2016, not a Government to Government partnership, so the one has nothing to do with other.



Really? When they asked about WAD that's tailor made for Rafale or for Gripen E and most likely the EF? They also asked for GaN, which only a single fighter offers so far.



Then why didn't he bought more already and his MoD is fielding 1 tender after the other? He could had made it so simple and just made a 126 Rafale G2G deal and all the nonsense would have stopped. But he didn't! All he was interested in, was a deal to make him look like he acts fast as promised, but today we know that defence is not his priority and that the government don't want to spend that much money, because they keep restricting the budgets.

IAF did indeed want Rafale, it was well reported.

The recent revelations of what pension burdens are doing to the procurement budget are also well documented.

The Rafale F4 is having GaN so ouais, read the rest of the RFI and you will see it is not made for Gripen.

You do know what strategic means right? It is code for nuclear.

Like I told you before, the IAF procurement budget cannot handle 126. The deal made in Paris was that both the IAF and IN procurement budgets would be combined to get around that number. 72 for IAF and 57 for the IN.

 

[su30mki2017]

NO.
M2000 carry 5.5 tons max, when a Rafale reach 9.5 tons.
M2000 is only superior in max speed and ceilling. Less important with the modern AAM (and specially with Meteor).

Gripen E is a modern M2000.

F16 bk 60 : only one customer.... strange no?

what version is this?
stealthy CFT and Weapons Pod on the wings tip
@BON PLAN @lcafanboy @aditya g @indus @sayareakd @Kshithij @Kshatriya87

 

[indus]

what version is this?
stealthy CFT and Weapons Pod on the wings tip
@BON PLAN @lcafanboy @aditya g @indus @sayareakd @Kshithij @Kshatriya87

Is it the Rafale BM. Twin seater carrier version with CFTs.

 

[Sancho]

IAF did indeed want Rafale, it was well reported.

IAF would have liked 126 Rafales, but they wanted any kind of MMRCA fighter in the required numbers, with a licence production and critical ToT. They never insisted on Rafale, nor did they stipulated the "critical requirement" the government used to justify the PMs deal, just as they were not involved in the decision to buy the 36 before the announcement!

The recent revelations of what pension burdens are doing to the procurement budget are also well documented

The MMRCA budget was approved years ago by the former government, which makes "recent revelations" pointless and as said, it was confirmed by Parrikar too.

The Rafale F4 is having GaN so ouais, read the rest of the RFI and you will see it is not made for Gripen.

Hehe, no answer on WAD? That's the problem with merely claiming things, without being able to back it up.

You do know what strategic means right?

:biggrin2: Not able to admit that you confused the meaning of SPM?

 

[Sancho]

what version is this?
stealthy CFT and Weapons Pod on the wings tip

Artist impression, on what a future Rafale upgrade with RCS reductions could look like. Dassault officials have confirmed shaped tanks and pods for testing, but it's not a funded upgrade and might not really work, since the CFTs can't hold enough fuel to replace tanks entirely, at least not in A2G roles.

 

[Armand2REP]

India Today's expose on Rafale dogfight: Crucial documents bust Congress's claims

Full Episode: https://www.indiatoday.in/programme...nts-bust-congress-s-claims-1296053-2018-07-25

 

[BON PLAN]

The deal made in Paris was that both the IAF and IN procurement budgets would be combined to get around that number. 72 for IAF and 57 for the IN.

you have a source for that ?

 

[BON PLAN]

what version is this?
stealthy CFT and Weapons Pod on the wings tip
@BON PLAN @lcafanboy @aditya g @indus @sayareakd @Kshithij @Kshatriya87

It's a Sci Fi version of what can be a Rafale MLU or some thing like that.
Nothing really serious as for now.

 

[BON PLAN]

Artist impression, on what a future Rafale upgrade with RCS reductions could look like. Dassault officials have confirmed shaped tanks and pods for testing, but it's not a funded upgrade and might not really work, since the CFTs can't hold enough fuel to replace tanks entirely, at least not in A2G roles.

You can also imagine Stealthy external tanks (shape of a Scalp for exemple).

 

[BON PLAN]

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...eres-all-the-lowdown/articleshow/65072353.cms

 

[ersakthivel]

Please you already proved often enough that you have no idea what you are talking about and this is way too much for you as well, because nobody specifically not the NDA government asked for help with Kaveri. It was Safran that asked DRDO where they would like to see ToT being provided and DRDO suggested Kaveri.

You hv all these ,fancy "ideas" about believing aeronautical genius Air Marshal Matheswaran idea-"tejas Program needs to be closed"

&

No use in pursuing Snecma-gtre GTRE kaveri jv.

IAF has now committed to mote than 200 tejas

&

after evaluating Kaveri french said that it is mature enough to be flight tested in a tejas protorypep

Simply quoting a few newspaper report doesn't bestow , intelligence in a person.

 

[ersakthivel]

Please you already proved often enough that you have no idea what you are talking about and this is way too much for you as well, because nobody specifically not the NDA government asked for help with Kaveri. It was Safran that asked DRDO where they would like to see ToT being provided and DRDO suggested Kaveri.

You dont even know that it is DRDO Which is consulted first in offsets in any deal.

So Safran asking DRDO is no charity, it is pretty much the norm.

 

[Armand2REP]

you have a source for that ?

It has been so long I can't find it. I remember it was reported by Shiv Aroor who was talking to an unnamed IAF officer that was at the closed door meeting between Sarkozy and Modi. He said IAF needed at least 80 Rafale but they agreed to 72 for IAF. I think Dassault pitched an extra 36 last year but Modi is putting it off until after the 2019 elections. There is no point going forward if he loses.

 

[abingdonboy]

IAF did indeed want Rafale, it was well reported.

The recent revelations of what pension burdens are doing to the procurement budget are also well documented.

The Rafale F4 is having GaN so ouais, read the rest of the RFI and you will see it is not made for Gripen.

You do know what strategic means right? It is code for nuclear.

Like I told you before, the IAF procurement budget cannot handle 126. The deal made in Paris was that both the IAF and IN procurement budgets would be combined to get around that number. 72 for IAF and 57 for the IN.

72 is a minimum for IAF, IAF has already paid 40% of the value for the follow on 36 jets in the first deal itself.

I don’t know why some are simply ignoring basic economic realities.

You don’t pay $2bn for Indian specific upgrades for just 36 planes- that is $55m PER PLANE.

Then there is the FACT that the two Rafale bases in India are being built to operate 2 SQNs EACH.

72 is the minimum but I am certain that over time the full MMRCA requirement will be met, just wait for MMRCA 2.0 farce to come to its logical conclusion.

 

[Kshithij]

72 is a minimum for IAF, IAF has already paid 40% of the value for the follow on 36 jets in the first deal itself.

I don’t know why some are simply ignoring basic economic realities.

You don’t pay $2bn for Indian specific upgrades for just 36 planes- that is $55m PER PLANE.

Then there is the FACT that the two Rafale bases in India are being built to operate 2 SQNs EACH.

72 is the minimum but I am certain that over time the full MMRCA requirement will be met, just wait for MMRCA 2.0 farce to come to its logical conclusion.

Explain to me why 72 planes are important? How did you come to 72 and not 720? or 5000? Can you tell me how can India win war with 72 planes? Don't you think that enemy can use SAMs and attack bases with missiles to take out aircrafts? In such scenario, can 72 planes win wars at all or do they simply result in prolonging the problem?

Let us be realistic for once in lifetime. The number of planes made in WW2 by USA alone was 3.5lakh in 5 years which is 70000 per year! Even today, the number of cars made is 50 lakh in India while other items like 2 wheelers are 2.5 crore, tractors of 10lakh, 3wheelers of 10 lakh etc and here we are about purchasing 72 planes and calling it economical. No matter how good rafale is, if only 72 planes are used, the enemy can easily overwhelm it by sending 720 MiG21 planes and all it takes is 720 suicide squad members with flying skills and ability to make cheap MiG21s! We all know that Pakistan can afford to send even 72000 suicide squad members and we have killed 720 members already just in the last 4 years in border firing.

The planes are not bought to win wars but to acquire technology which can be used in indigenous planes and aeronautics. The question to be asked is if the money spent on rafale is worth the technology acquired. India does not want rafales for its greatness but just wants the technology to incorporate in Tejas planes or future AMCA. Even if India has to pay $30 billion dollars for just 10 rafales but with full technology transfer, it is still worth it.

Since countries don't give ToT easily, the next best thing is to acquire the minimum ToT and also study the plane once acquired to get better understanding of technology and get new ideas of how some intricate details work which in turn is to be used to develop indigenous technology for Indian planes.

 

[abingdonboy]

Explain to me why 72 planes are important? How did you come to 72 and not 720? or 5000? Can you tell me how can India win war with 72 planes? Don't you think that enemy can use SAMs and attack bases with missiles to take out aircrafts? In such scenario, can 72 planes win wars at all or do they simply result in prolonging the problem?

Let us be realistic for once in lifetime. The number of planes made in WW2 by USA alone was 3.5lakh in 5 years which is 70000 per year! Even today, the number of cars made is 50 lakh in India while other items like 2 wheelers are 2.5 crore, tractors of 10lakh, 3wheelers of 10 lakh etc and here we are about purchasing 72 planes and calling it economical. No matter how good rafale is, if only 72 planes are used, the enemy can easily overwhelm it by sending 720 MiG21 planes and all it takes is 720 suicide squad members with flying skills and ability to make cheap MiG21s! We all know that Pakistan can afford to send even 72000 suicide squad members and we have killed 720 members already just in the last 4 years in border firing.

The planes are not bought to win wars but to acquire technology which can be used in indigenous planes and aeronautics. The question to be asked is if the money spent on rafale is worth the technology acquired. India does not want rafales for its greatness but just wants the technology to incorporate in Tejas planes or future AMCA. Even if India has to pay $30 billion dollars for just 10 rafales but with full technology transfer, it is still worth it.

Since countries don't give ToT easily, the next best thing is to acquire the minimum ToT and also study the plane once acquired to get better understanding of technology and get new ideas of how some intricate details work which in turn is to be used to develop indigenous technology for Indian planes.

I didn’t make the 72 unit calculation. This is inferred from the concrete plans already established. IAF has invested in infrastructure to support 4 Rafale SQNs- 72 jets.

And I only agree with you to an extent, 72 jets will make a HUGE difference to the IAF as a whole, they will transform the way the IAF operates and will bring a quantum leap in capabilities. The IAF’s Rafales will easily be the most advanced fighters in Asia and when acting in tandem with MKIs will be a devastating force multiplier.

The TOT part is debatable, no one will part with their Crown Jewels BUT this deal is particularly useful as France has agreed to help the Kaveri project as part of offsets.

200++ MKIs inducted by IAF, how has this helped the LCA or AMCA project? Almost none.

There are no shortcuts, Rafales will help address IAF’s quantitative shortcomings by taking a huge qualitative jump.

 

[Samsung J7]

72 is a minimum for IAF, IAF has already paid 40% of the value for the follow on 36 jets in the first deal itself.

I don’t know why some are simply ignoring basic economic realities.

You don’t pay $2bn for Indian specific upgrades for just 36 planes- that is $55m PER PLANE.

Then there is the FACT that the two Rafale bases in India are being built to operate 2 SQNs EACH.

72 is the minimum but I am certain that over time the full MMRCA requirement will be met, just wait for MMRCA 2.0 farce to come to its logical conclusion.

Egypt Rafale deal

http://m.france24.com/en/20150216-france-egypt-sign-deal-sale-rafale-fighter-jets
French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian arrived in Cairo on Monday to sign a €5.2 billion contract for the sale of 24 Rafale fighter jets to Egypt,

Indian Rafale deal
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-...from-france/story-KFXMt9NlWnHVaNPeEdrPXI.html
India signed a deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France on Friday for close to 7.8 billion euros

I see no difference between Indian and Egypt deal cost. These india specific modifications, help in kaveri engine story r just to justify Rafale deal cost.there is no truth in that. We should accept Rafale is costlier jet. And we cant afford them in large numbers

 

[Kshithij]

I didn’t make the 72 unit calculation. This is inferred from the concrete plans already established. IAF has invested in infrastructure to support 4 Rafale SQNs- 72 jets.

And I only agree with you to an extent, 72 jets will make a HUGE difference to the IAF as a whole, they will transform the way the IAF operates and will bring a quantum leap in capabilities. The IAF’s Rafales will easily be the most advanced fighters in Asia and when acting in tandem with MKIs will be a devastating force multiplier.

The TOT part is debatable, no one will part with their Crown Jewels BUT this deal is particularly useful as France has agreed to help the Kaveri project as part of offsets.

200++ MKIs inducted by IAF, how has this helped the LCA or AMCA project? Almost none.

There are no shortcuts, Rafales will help address IAF’s quantitative shortcomings by taking a huge qualitative jump.

The Su30 MKI was the foundation of Indian aerospace. It gave India the much needed technology to develop the infrastructure. Things like powder metallurgy, turbine blade manufacturing etc were all larnt in this process. Even the avionics and radars of Su30 have been indigenised and thus added to the knowledge database. Nothing helped more than Su30 manufacturing in developing Indian aeronautical industry. Russia gave full ToT of Su30 despite it being a very competent fighter jet. So, even ToT wise Su30 gave lots of ToT. Su30 is the foundation of LCA or AMCA manufacturing.

The 4 squadrons of IAF is a speculation. How do you know that IAF is not making room for additional squadrons of Su30 or Tejas which is being made?

 

[BON PLAN]

It has been so long I can't find it. I remember it was reported by Shiv Aroor who was talking to an unnamed IAF officer that was at the closed door meeting between Sarkozy and Modi. He said IAF needed at least 80 Rafale but they agreed to 72 for IAF. I think Dassault pitched an extra 36 last year but Modi is putting it off until after the 2019 elections. There is no point going forward if he loses.

Sarkozy ? I think it's Holland, no?