Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

72 jets will make a HUGE difference to the IAF as a whole, they will transform the way the IAF operates and will bring a quantum leap in capabilities.

That's logically wrong, because what changes for IAF, is that Rafale or any European MMRCA will bring in advanced techs and capabilities, IAF doesn't have so far. But that has no relation to the number of Rafales it operates!

If the number should make an operational difference, those 72 would have to be based on different bases all over the country, to give IAF the capability to cover and add those techs to all areas, but that is not the case when they are limited to just 2 bases. You have 36 fighters covering the north east and 36 the north west, that's it!
They don't add any value in the south, they don't prevent any attacks from the south west, they can't attack Pak naval bases...
You can't scramble a Rafale at Hasimara, to attack Karachi, or intercept F16s flying towards Mumbai.

That's why the number game makes only sense, in combination with additional bases => MMRCA 126 + 63 fighters for multiple bases all over the country.

 

[Sancho]

Wrt the cost of the Rafale deals and possible ISC, the Trishul Blog has made an interesting, but not necessarily accurate analysis:

https://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2018/07/iaf-rafale-m-mmrca-costings.html?m=1

As always with this source, read with interest, but take the conclusions with caution.

 

[Armand2REP]

That's logically wrong, because what changes for IAF, is that Rafale or any European MMRCA will bring in advanced techs and capabilities, IAF doesn't have so far. But that has no relation to the number of Rafales it operates!

If the number should make an operational difference, those 72 would have to be based on different bases all over the country, to give IAF the capability to cover and add those techs to all areas, but that is not the case when they are limited to just 2 bases. You have 36 fighters covering the north east and 36 the north west, that's it!
They don't add any value in the south, they don't prevent any attacks from the south west, they can't attack Pak naval bases...
You can't scramble a Rafale at Hasimara, to attack Karachi, or intercept F16s flying towards Mumbai.

That's why the number game makes only sense, in combination with additional bases => MMRCA 126 + 63 fighters for multiple bases all over the country.

India is going to have 129 Rafale, 72 for the IAF and 57 for the Navy. The naval sqaudrons can cover the south with the IAF squadrons in the NW and NE. With the extreme range and payload of the aircraft the entire perimeter of the country can be protected. With a supercruise of Mach 1.4 in a CAP configuration the Rafale can get to situations far away with speed. The quick turnaround time and high payload means that one Rafale is equal to 3 M2000-5 and up to 10 Su-30MKI using retarded bombs. The force multipliers the Rafale brings makes one the equal of several others combined.

 

[Sancho]

India is going to have 129 Rafale, 72 for the IAF and 57 for the Navy. The naval sqaudrons can cover the south with the IAF squadrons in the NW and NE.

Lol so now you are changing the long standing quarrel of IAF and IN about who is in charge for coastal air defence?
INs fighter are limited to carrier operations only, IAF takes over coastal defence, which is why they are rasing new bases and squads in the south and why since the early 2000s maritime attack remained a requirement in the MMRCA tenders.

So pointless claims and and speculations won't change that.

 

[Kshithij]

India is going to have 129 Rafale, 72 for the IAF and 57 for the Navy. The naval sqaudrons can cover the south with the IAF squadrons in the NW and NE. With the extreme range and payload of the aircraft the entire perimeter of the country can be protected. With a supercruise of Mach 1.4 in a CAP configuration the Rafale can get to situations far away with speed. The quick turnaround time and high payload means that one Rafale is equal to 3 M2000-5 and up to 10 Su-30MKI using retarded bombs. The force multipliers the Rafale brings makes one the equal of several others combined.

You are trying to say that 10 Su30 is equal to 3 Mirage 2000 and 1 Rafale? It is one thing to be proud o one's country but it is another thing to simply assume that only one's country has intelligent people while other countries like Russia have all fools as scientists and engineers. Do you know the range, payload and maneuverbaility of Su30?

Lol so now you are changing the long standing quarrel of IAF and IN about who is in charge for coastal air defence?
INs fighter are limited to carrier operations only, IAF takes over coastal defence, which is why they are rasing new bases and squads in the south and why since the early 2000s maritime attack remained a requirement in the MMRCA tenders.

So pointless claims and and speculations won't change that.

Vikrant needs 30 aircrafts and additional aircrafts are needed assuming that the availability will be about two-thirds and some planes may actually crash and have to be replaced.

Coastal defence is done by IAF, not by Navy. Even Andaman defence is done by IAF.

 

[Armand2REP]

You are trying to say that 10 Su30 is equal to 3 Mirage 2000 and 1 Rafale? It is one thing to be proud o one's country but it is another thing to simply assume that only one's country has intelligent people while other countries like Russia have all fools as scientists and engineers. Do you know the range, payload and maneuverbaility of Su30?

When it comes to airstrikes... absolutely. The Su-30 was designed for air dominance, everything else is an afterthought.

 

[Kshithij]

When it comes to airstrikes... absolutely. The Su-30 was designed for air dominance, everything else is an afterthought.

In today's scenario, airstrike has become very simple due to PGM and laser designation pods. So, air superiority is what matters the most. Airstrike has become trivial that any plane will be able to handle it.

Moreover, the payload capacity of Su30 is about 10tons. I don't think that Su30 would even need 4ton payload if it was only meant as air superiority fighter. The heavy ground strike ammunitions carrying ability is what necessitates the plane to have high payload carry ability

 

[Armand2REP]

In today's scenario, airstrike has become very simple due to PGM and laser designation pods. So, air superiority is what matters the most. Airstrike has become trivial that any plane will be able to handle it.

Moreover, the payload capacity of Su30 is about 10tons. I don't think that Su30 would even need 4ton payload if it was only meant as air superiority fighter. The heavy ground strike ammunitions carrying ability is what necessitates the plane to have high payload carry ability

The PGMs the Su-30 can employ are vastly inferior to the weapons of the Rafale. The KAB series of guided bombs have low drop altitudes leaving the aircraft vulnerable to SRSAMs. The stand-off weapons are overly large and limit the capacity while the need to carry a jamming pod decreases load-out. Su-30 would have a hard time dropping bombs in heavily defended airspace with no TWR and a few jamming pods that are not strong enough for the signature it needs to mask. Su-30 has an 8 tonne payload, not 10t. You need air superiority to protect yourself, you need air strike to destroy the enemy. Rafale does everything well, Su-30 does one thing well.

 

[Kshithij]

The PGMs the Su-30 can employ are vastly inferior to the weapons of the Rafale. The KAB series of guided bombs have low drop altitudes leaving the aircraft vulnerable to SRSAMs. The stand-off weapons are overly large and limit the capacity while the need to carry a jamming pod decreases load-out. Su-30 would have a hard time dropping bombs in heavily defended airspace with no TWR and a few jamming pods that are not strong enough for the signature it needs to mask. Su-30 has an 8 tonne payload, not 10t. You need air superiority to protect yourself, you need air strike to destroy the enemy. Rafale does everything well, Su-30 does one thing well.

Su30 MKI has MToW of 38.5tons and empty weight of 18.5tons. The fuel capacity is 9.5tons. So, remaining about 10tons is payload.

About PGM and standoff missiles, India can integrate its own PGM and standoff missiles as per its wishes. Su30 MKI is made in India and India has the codes to integrate any weapon of its choice. Also, many PGM glide bombs made in India like Garuda, Garuthmaa with 30 and 100km respectively have been tested from Su30 already. DRDO has integrated Brahmos on Su30 MKI and will integrate a subsonic cruise missile once it is ready. So, the defects in any Russian missile will not affect Indian Sukhois

Su30 has one of the most powerful jammers. Due to heavy engine and higher power available, the jamming distance is also quite large. Moreover, india has also developed its own EW suite which will be used in Su30 and are likely to have latest capabilities. India can also integrate Israeli weapons and jammers if needed.

Overall, Su30 MKI can do a lot of things and is also modifiable according to Indian needs as India has the required codes and technology.

 

[Armand2REP]

Su30 MKI has MToW of 38.5tons and empty weight of 18.5tons. The fuel capacity is 9.5tons. So, remaining about 10tons is payload.

That difference between MTOW and empty weight doesn't make it payload. Payload is what can be carried externally which is 8t vs 9.5t for Rafale.

About PGM and standoff missiles, India can integrate its own PGM and standoff missiles as per its wishes. Su30 MKI is made in India and India has the codes to integrate any weapon of its choice. Also, many PGM glide bombs made in India like Garuda, Garuthmaa with 30 and 100km respectively have been tested from Su30 already. DRDO has integrated Brahmos on Su30 MKI and will integrate a subsonic cruise missile once it is ready. So, the defects in any Russian missile will not affect Indian Sukhois

You have had MKI for a long time, where are the range of integrated PGMs that match Rafale?

HAL makes the airframe, you still need Russia for spares and integration. You let me know when Garuda and Garthmaa have achieved IOC on an MKI. Scalp and AASM have been on the Rafale over a decade and combat proven dozens and hundreds of times. We are coming up with our own Smartglider family of glide bombs so you are facing stiff competition. MKI can carry one Brahmos, Rafale can carry 3X Scalp and do it in a much stealthier configuration.

Su30 has one of the most powerful jammers. Due to heavy engine and higher power available, the jamming distance is also quite large. Moreover, india has also developed its own EW suite which will be used in Su30 and are likely to have latest capabilities. India can also integrate Israeli weapons and jammers if needed.

Actually it is a very old jammer made by Israel, even older than the one that was used by the F-16 shot down by Syria. It is time to upgrade them just like MKI.

Overall, Su30 MKI can do a lot of things and is also modifiable according to Indian needs as India has the required codes and technology.

You would like it to do alot of things but in reality it can't, at least not very well. I concede it is a good air superiority fighter.

 

[Sancho]

When it comes to airstrikes... absolutely. The Su-30 was designed for air dominance, everything else is an afterthought.

Lol, another low for you and our fantasy.

Rafale has better electronics so far, but when it comes to A2G weapons and load capability, it stands no chance against the MKI (8t of weapons Vs 9.5t of external fuel and weapons). But it's even more hilarious that you compare the Mirage against it.

where are the range of integrated PGMs that match Rafale?

Rafale has exactly 1 PGM and even that only in a single weight class!!! That's on fact a weak point of the Rafale, because AASM 500 and 1000 were not developed and the 125 were not integrated. Why do you think India is integrating SPICE PGMs, to get rid of that weak point.
Not to mention that the A2G missile variety of the MKI outmatch Rafale in any way.

 

[Armand2REP]

Lol, another low for you and our fantasy.

Rafale has better electronics so far, but when it comes to A2G weapons and load capability, it stands no chance against the MKI (8t of weapons Vs 9.5t of external fuel and weapons). But it's even more hilarious that you compare the Mirage against it.

The Rafale is constantly evolving and being upgraded, the MKI has come in the same configuration for the last what, almost 20 years now? When is it being upgraded to Super 30? Get that and you might talk about comparing it to Rafale.

Rafale has exactly 1 PGM and even that only in a single weight class!!! That's on fact a weak point of the Rafale, because AASM 500 and 1000 were not developed and the 125 were not integrated. Why do you think India is integrating SPICE PGMs, to get rid of that weak point.
Not to mention that the A2G missile variety of the MKI outmatch Rafale in any way.

The AASM's modularity allows it to be used on 125, 250, 500 and 1000kg bomb bodies. Its engine provides it with range greater than 50km, meaning it can be fired at a standoff distance. Autonomous after it has been dropped, it can be used at low altitudes, cross hilly terrain or veer sharply from the firing aircraft.

https://www.safran-electronics-defense.com/aerospace/weapons-and-missiles/aasm

There is a very good reason Russia developed the Su-34 as its primary bomber and not the 30. India chose the Rafale to fill that role for the IAF, it is more survivable in high threat environments. Do you remember that Red Flag where Rafale took out all of its targets without a single loss while MKI was getting hit by SAMs regularly? MKI needs to stay away from SAMs and stick to what it is best at.

 

[Kshithij]

The Rafale is constantly evolving and being upgraded, the MKI has come in the same configuration for the last what, almost 20 years now? When is it being upgraded to Super 30? Get that and you might talk about comparing it to Rafale.

Super Sukhoi is about upgrading the engine to Al41F and upgrading radar to AESA. India does not want that as India is making Al31F fully in India and Al41F will have to be imported a Russia is not giving the license of it.

Also, Su30 avionics is being upgraded regularly by India and recently the Israeli avionics was replaced by HAL-SAMTEL avionics. The radar is still BARS radar as Russia is not giving ToT for its AESA radar and India prefers to have the BARS radar which is made in India. BARS is a very powerful radar but is PESA and hence is slightly more jammable than AESA. But that can be ugraded too once Indian AESA gets ready.

 

[Armand2REP]

Super Sukhoi is about upgrading the engine to Al41F and upgrading radar to AESA. India does not want that as India is making Al31F fully in India and Al41F will have to be imported a Russia is not giving the license of it.

You keep saying you make AL-31F fully in India but this is not true. Russia still makes the engine core.

Also, Su30 avionics is being upgraded regularly by India and recently the Israeli avionics was replaced by HAL-SAMTEL avionics. The radar is still BARS radar as Russia is not giving ToT for its AESA radar and India prefers to have the BARS radar which is made in India. BARS is a very powerful radar but is PESA and hence is slightly more jammable than AESA. But that can be ugraded too once Indian AESA gets ready.

The inclusion of third party hardware was set out from the beginning of the production run. These are not new developments or upgrades. You even think you make BARS radar in India? Such is not the case. You still rely on Russia for spares which is why the availability had fallen in past years.

 

[Sancho]

The Rafale is constantly evolving and being upgraded, the MKI has come in the same configuration for the last what, almost 20 years now? When is it being upgraded to Super 30? Get that and you might talk about comparing it to Rafale.

As usual you try to distract from your earlier claims, when you got caught red handed with nonsense claims.

The part about AASM is also a poor try to avoid to answer to what I said. Honestly guys, why can't you and Bonplan not admit for once, that Rafale is not perfect? Why do you have to make up things for Rafale over and over?

There is a very good reason Russia developed the Su-34 as its primary bomber and not the 30.

Yes, because they developed the Su 35 single seater primarily for air superiority and needed a twin seater, with specialised electronics and EW for the strike role to complement it. IAF on the other side, chose the twin seat MKI, to have a more balanced performance of A2A and A2G in just a single type.

The only field where it lacks behind Rafale, as said is electronics and EW, which are the fields where Rafale "was" the best during MMRCA.

 

[Armand2REP]

The part about AASM is also a poor try to avoid to answer to what I said. Honestly guys, why can't you and Bonplan not admit for once, that Rafale is not perfect? Why do you have to make up things for Rafale over and over?

Did I make it up? It comes straight from Safran. Check the link again if you ever did.

Yes, because they developed the Su 35 single seater primarily for air superiority and needed a twin seater, with specialised electronics and EW for the strike role to complement it. IAF on the other side, chose the twin seat MKI, to have a more balanced performance of A2A and A2G in just a single type.

The only field where it lacks behind Rafale, as said is electronics and EW, which are the fields where Rafale "was" the best during MMRCA.

You just admitted it when you said it lacked specialised electronics and EW for the strike role, the Su-34 also has a nice armour package which makes it survivable if hit. The MKI was not initially ordered with a jammer, targetting pods or PGMs, they were added later and only enough for one or two squadrons. The vast majority of MKI do not have it as it was not procured in great enough numbers. It was a stopgap capability to offset the loss of MiG-27s which are now coming back on line with upgraded Jaguars and M2000s. Even when MKI gets the air launched version of Brahmos it will only be a couple of squadrons. There is a 164 contract for new LITENING pods but they are destined for Rafale, M2000, Jaguar and Tejas... not enough for MKI.

 

[Kshithij]

You keep saying you make AL-31F fully in India but this is not true. Russia still makes the engine core.



The inclusion of third party hardware was set out from the beginning of the production run. These are not new developments or upgrades. You even think you make BARS radar in India? Such is not the case. You still rely on Russia for spares which is why the availability had fallen in past years.

India makes al31f in India. India imports spare parts because india does not have license for manufacturing them in India. It is like a shopkeeper buying original harry potter book when he could dimply print it himself. It is a matter of trust, not technology

 

[BON PLAN]

ToT from MKI has been used in making avionics, engine of Kaveri, radars and their processor algorithm etc have been massively useful. The modern aircraft is mainly dependent on things like avionics and electronics rather than just airframe. Also, the engine and radar technology have been vastly helpful in further developing the Kaveri.

India started to make Al31F engine 100% in India since about 2012-2014 (not sure of exact date) and after then, there is no import of blades. 100% from raw materials is made in India. The technology like powder metallurgy, coating etc are greatly helpful in Kaveri development

?
Kaveri is not airworthy after yearsssss of developpment.
Is the Tejas flying with an indigenous radar (even just a mechanical one)?
I'm absolutely not sure 100% of a AL31F is indian made.

 

[BON PLAN]

Eagerly awaiting DRDO scientists getting a look at SPECTRA.

You can be sure it's a black box.
You can use it, maybe you will be able to add some datas and to modify some frequency, wave length, output signals.... but the core of the system is closed.

 

[BON PLAN]

Qatar and ISrael do not make defence deals. Elbit is a defence company of Israel while QEAF is Qatar Emiri AirForce

Qatar Rafale will be equiped with israelis helmet. It's a fact.