Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

It's 32 jaguar fighters which will be cannibalized for spares to keep Indian jaguars fly till 2030 and big BONUS 2 MIRAGE 2000-5 trainers for replacement of 2 crashed iaf Mirage.

So finally the details of rafale deal are coming out.....

Last 2 of the Rafales will be assembled in DRAL Nagpur and that will be final nail in mmrca2 drama coffin....

ARe you sure about the Mirage 2000-5 ? First time I read that....

 

[BON PLAN]

France is most trusted Indian defence partner. India should cancel MMRCA 2.0 drama and purchase more Rafales.

The first 36 pose so many internal politic affairs, that MMRCA 2 is just made to justify a huge purchase of Rafale under a tailor made RFI, so as to cut the grass under the opponent feet.

 

[BON PLAN]

so reliance just gonna put the money and every thing gonna be done by french dassault ???
because reliance has no r&d for any aircraft production let alone fighter jet like rafale .

Know how can be valorised.... so it was in this case.

 

[lcafanboy]

ARe you sure about the Mirage 2000-5 ? First time I read that....

Was Rahul’s Rafale math wrong? Congress president ignored fact that France ‘gifting’ 32 Jaguars to India
Published July 22, 2018 | By admin
SOURCE:Times Now Digital

Rahul Gandhi claimed during Friday’s no-confidence motion debate that the Rafale jet deal has come as a huge loss to the Indian exchequer. But the Congress president may not have taken into consideration that 32 second-hand Jaguars are also being gifted to India by France.
On Friday, Gandhi raised several questions related to the Rafale deal and urged Prime Minister Narendra Modi to answer why India was paying a “much higher price” for the aircraft than had been bargained with France during the UPA regime.
But the 32 Jaguars that are coming India’s way will provide much-needed spare parts to the Indian airforce. That’s not all. France is also going to provide India with two Mirage-2000 fighters, the planes that more than proved their capability during the Kargil war. It is unlikely that the Congress president during his impassioned speech in Parliament had considered all these aspects of the deal that give a clear boost to India’s defence preparedness.
The Rafale deal took an interesting turn in 2015, when Prime Minister Narendra Modi said that India will buy 36 Rafale fighter jets, which are made by France, off the shelf from a French aircraft builder. Rafale had been chosen in 2012 over other worthy rivals from Russia and the US. Initially, the plan was for India to buy 18 aircraft from the French firm Dassault Aviation in an off-the-shelf deal, and 108 other planes were to be assembled by the public sector body Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in India.
But later the Indian government said that the twin-engined aircraft were expensive. Finally, after a lot of back and forth between India and France, the Modi government agreed to purchase 36 ready-to-fly Rafale jets.
Then in September 2016 India and France signed an agreement, according to which India is to pay Rs 58,000 crore for 36 off-the-shelf twin-engine Rafale jets Approximately 15 per cent of this is to be paid in advance. India will also receive spare parts and the Meteor missile among other weapons as part of the deal along with the Jaguars and Mirages.
http://idrw.org/was-rahuls-rafale-m...ance-gifting-32-jaguars-to-india/#more-176330

 

[abingdonboy]

It's 32 jaguar fighters which will be cannibalized for spares to keep Indian jaguars fly till 2030 and big BONUS 2 MIRAGE 2000-5 trainers for replacement of 2 crashed iaf Mirage.

So finally the details of rafale deal are coming out.....

Last 2 of the Rafales will be assembled in DRAL Nagpur and that will be final nail in mmrca2 drama coffin....

Where are you getting this from (last 2 Rafales to be made by DRAL?) this makes littler sense, the ammount of work that would have to happen for just 2 jets? 20 I could understand but 2.....



IF true, game over for MMRCA 2.0.

 

[BON PLAN]

Was Rahul’s Rafale math wrong? Congress president ignored fact that France ‘gifting’ 32 Jaguars to India
Published July 22, 2018 | By admin
SOURCE:Times Now Digital

Rahul Gandhi claimed during Friday’s no-confidence motion debate that the Rafale jet deal has come as a huge loss to the Indian exchequer. But the Congress president may not have taken into consideration that 32 second-hand Jaguars are also being gifted to India by France.
On Friday, Gandhi raised several questions related to the Rafale deal and urged Prime Minister Narendra Modi to answer why India was paying a “much higher price” for the aircraft than had been bargained with France during the UPA regime.
But the 32 Jaguars that are coming India’s way will provide much-needed spare parts to the Indian airforce. That’s not all. France is also going to provide India with two Mirage-2000 fighters, the planes that more than proved their capability during the Kargil war. It is unlikely that the Congress president during his impassioned speech in Parliament had considered all these aspects of the deal that give a clear boost to India’s defence preparedness.
The Rafale deal took an interesting turn in 2015, when Prime Minister Narendra Modi said that India will buy 36 Rafale fighter jets, which are made by France, off the shelf from a French aircraft builder. Rafale had been chosen in 2012 over other worthy rivals from Russia and the US. Initially, the plan was for India to buy 18 aircraft from the French firm Dassault Aviation in an off-the-shelf deal, and 108 other planes were to be assembled by the public sector body Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in India.
But later the Indian government said that the twin-engined aircraft were expensive. Finally, after a lot of back and forth between India and France, the Modi government agreed to purchase 36 ready-to-fly Rafale jets.
Then in September 2016 India and France signed an agreement, according to which India is to pay Rs 58,000 crore for 36 off-the-shelf twin-engine Rafale jets Approximately 15 per cent of this is to be paid in advance. India will also receive spare parts and the Meteor missile among other weapons as part of the deal along with the Jaguars and Mirages.
http://idrw.org/was-rahuls-rafale-m...ance-gifting-32-jaguars-to-india/#more-176330

OK
Mirage 2000 is one thing, Mirage 2000-5 is another.

 

[BON PLAN]

Where are you getting this from (last 2 Rafales to be made by DRAL?) this makes littler sense, the ammount of work that would have to happen for just 2 jets? 20 I could understand but 2.....



IF true, game over for MMRCA 2.0.

I'm absolutely not sure about that last 2 to be assembled in India.
I'm afraid it's more a rumor than anything else....

 

[FactsPlease]

Of course, because I use facts and common sense as the base for my opinions and not only bias and preference for a specific fighter.

The simple fact that the NDA government is doing everything not to buy Rafale in large numbers alone, proves the opposite of what you are saying.

- they wanted IAF to scrap the 126 Rafale deal and buy MKIs and LCAs instead
- they didn't went for a 126 Rafale G2G deal
- they cancelled MMRCA and re-tendered it to the SE MMRCA, to keep Rafale out
- they included the SPM policy, which is focused on lower costs, which is counterproductive for one of the most expensive fighters
- they rejected follow on orders of Rafale, without a production line in India
- they accepted HALs team up with Mahindra and Boeing and only after that, re-tendered the SE MMRCA back to MMRCA 2.0

You have to be completely blind, to think that all this is somehow positive for Rafale.

While I can barely comment on Sancho's points, it did coincide with one huge point - NDA's plan toward next generation international politics.

I believe on top of the strategy issue (and hence geopoloticis) in India leader's mind, especially a committed (to India' s future) one such as current PM, is how to define the relationship with USA for next ~20 years, balancing China as top consideration. Bearing that in mind, MMRCA 2 can be the perfect sacrifice on plate for this new grand strategy. Guess the decision on S400 will confirm this (yes, my bet is India will drop S400).

 

[Kshithij]

While I can barely comment on Sancho's points, it did coincide with one huge point - NDA's plan toward next generation international politics.

I believe on top of the strategy issue (and hence geopoloticis) in India leader's mind, especially a committed (to India' s future) one such as current PM, is how to define the relationship with USA for next ~20 years, balancing China as top consideration. Bearing that in mind, MMRCA 2 can be the perfect sacrifice on plate for this new grand strategy. Guess the decision on S400 will confirm this (yes, my bet is India will drop S400).

India does not need USA but India needs China. USA supplies useless goods and is running on massive deficit and external debt. China is providing useful goods which is helping Indian economy greatly. Russia is a next exporter of goods and is a country that gives advance technology to India. In fact, USA needs India to counter its adversaries in the IOR region and gain foothold. So, USA must come with advanced technology transfers to please India and build trust. When that happens, you can come back at your ramblings.

Simply stating that rafale will be sacrificed for pleasing USA or S400 will be dropped is absurd.

 

[BON PLAN]

While I can barely comment on Sancho's points, it did coincide with one huge point - NDA's plan toward next generation international politics.

I believe on top of the strategy issue (and hence geopoloticis) in India leader's mind, especially a committed (to India' s future) one such as current PM, is how to define the relationship with USA for next ~20 years, balancing China as top consideration. Bearing that in mind, MMRCA 2 can be the perfect sacrifice on plate for this new grand strategy. Guess the decision on S400 will confirm this (yes, my bet is India will drop S400).

- Indian top brass will always keep in mind "Kargil"....
- Trump is all but a trusted man.
- India (as China !) think long term, when US think short term and now "America first" : no strong deal possible.
- India will preserve its non aligned status.

=> The US pressure is totally useless.

I think India will purchase S400, Rafale, and more P8I + drones + helo from USA.

 

[binayak95]

- Indian top brass will always keep in mind "Kargil"....
- Trump is all but a trusted man.
- India (as China !) think long term, when US think short term and now "America first" : no strong deal possible.
- India will preserve its non aligned status.

=> The US pressure is totally useless.

I think India will purchase S400, Rafale, and more P8I + drones + helo from USA.

Agreed. Indian policy has become: nothing frontline from the US, unless its irreplaceable (P8Is and Apaches and armed Predators). Absolutely NOTHING from Russia, unless again, its irreplaceable (nuke subs and ABM)

 

[Kshithij]

Agreed. Indian policy has become: nothing frontline from the US, unless its irreplaceable (P8Is and Apaches and armed Predators). Absolutely NOTHING from Russia, unless again, its irreplaceable (nuke subs and ABM)

Absolutely nothing from Russia? Are you living in a cave? What about deals for Ka228? Mi17? S400? Vikrant aviation deck? Nirbhay missile NPO 36MT engine? 11356 class frigates?

India is buying from USA due to USA pressure of reducing trade deficit and i only buying simple items like C130, P8I etc, almost all of them with Indian technology and comms.

Russia has nothing more to offer India as India has become reasonably good in indigenous technology. Russia does not have high end drones, recently developed AESA, unwilling to give full ToT of PAK-FA and has very little technology left to give. Russia also gives parts of the items like 36MT engine, subsystems for submarines etc and hence there is no need to buy whole items from Russia.

 

[Armand2REP]

Of course, because I use facts and common sense as the base for my opinions and not only bias and preference for a specific fighter.

The simple fact that the NDA government is doing everything not to buy Rafale in large numbers alone, proves the opposite of what you are saying.

- they wanted IAF to scrap the 126 Rafale deal and buy MKIs and LCAs instead
- they didn't went for a 126 Rafale G2G deal
- they cancelled MMRCA and re-tendered it to the SE MMRCA, to keep Rafale out
- they included the SPM policy, which is focused on lower costs, which is counterproductive for one of the most expensive fighters
- they rejected follow on orders of Rafale, without a production line in India
- they accepted HALs team up with Mahindra and Boeing and only after that, re-tendered the SE MMRCA back to MMRCA 2.0

You have to be completely blind, to think that all this is somehow positive for Rafale.

- if they wanted to scrap Rafale they could easily have done so without buying 36 and spending infrastructure for twice to three times that many.
- the IAF procurement budget does not have the capital to make the order for 126 in a single deal.
- they are making it a long-lead procurement for political purposes and to gain the latest blocks, when they make the follow on order the newest version will be available at a better price.
- of course they gave it SPM, you cannot buy nuclear delivery vehicles without it. There is nothing about SPM that is focused on lower costs, it is a specialty requirement.
- they rejected the assembly line because it is more cost India would pay per aircraft and is not worth it for 36.
- HAL gets work-share no matter who wins, it is part of the tender.

You have completely missed the contents of the RFI, it is tailor made for Rafale F4. As long as Modi is still PM, he will do what he agreed to do in Paris, that is buying more Rafale.

 

[abingdonboy]

This just in: Congress will prohibit the sale of #F35s to Turkey until a report is submitted on purchasing the S-400. The Hill is evaluating all foreign military sales to #Turkey not just @LockheedMartin's F-35


Aaaaaand that ladies and gentlemen is that. This is a NATO ally of the US remember, imagine the sh!tstorm that will come when India signs for S400 units, chances of top of the line F18/16 models for India WITH local production will be obliterated almost instantly.


India ordering S400 now can not come soon enough, looks like after having a few years to assess the lay of the land Modi govt has accepted US is not really a friend and should be kept at an arm’s length. Same seems to be true of Russia.

 

[salute]

Know how can be valorised.... so it was in this case.

actually , companies like reliance are mostly into a business of investing and buying they have no tech or r&d for their ventures .

 

[BON PLAN]

This just in: Congress will prohibit the sale of #F35s to Turkey until a report is submitted on purchasing the S-400. The Hill is evaluating all foreign military sales to #Turkey not just @LockheedMartin's F-35

It's not made.
I'm not sure US want to push Turkey in the russian arms.

 

[Sancho]

The Rafale M can take off from carrier with 2 SCALP. The only Problem is to bring back on the carrier with just one fired : in peace time it's not authorised (during the WW3, it would be probably different).
In this case the second one have to be released in the sea...

Hehe, that's what I said, but you tried to avoid the more important but, that the job is the same.

While I can barely comment on Sancho's points, it did coincide with one huge point - NDA's plan toward next generation international politics.

I believe on top of the strategy issue (and hence geopoloticis) in India leader's mind, especially a committed (to India' s future) one such as current PM, is how to define the relationship with USA for next ~20 years, balancing China as top consideration. Bearing that in mind, MMRCA 2 can be the perfect sacrifice on plate for this new grand strategy. Guess the decision on S400 will confirm this (yes, my bet is India will drop S400).

When you see the reports and changes in the tenders, a political deal is a likely scenario and why the F18 is a strong contender this time, although the IAF might not like it. But at least it would be better than F16s, but let's hope that there is money for 2 fighter deals, a political one for the navy and a capable and industrial one for IAF.

- if they wanted to scrap Rafale they could easily have done so without buying 36 and spending infrastructure for twice to three times that many.

"They" didn't went for 36 Rafales, the PM did! Neither MoD nor IAF wanted that deal.

- the IAF procurement budget does not have the capital to make the order for 126 in a single deal.

Nonsense, even Parrikar confirmed that the budget was available, but he wanted to spend it on MKIs and LCAs instead.

- of course they gave it SPM, you cannot buy nuclear delivery vehicles without it. There is nothing about SPM that is focused on lower costs, it is a specialty requirement.

SPM (strategic partnership model), is a procurement policy in the DPP 2016, not a Government to Government partnership, so the one has nothing to do with other.

You have completely missed the contents of the RFI, it is tailor made for Rafale F4.

Really? When they asked about WAD that's tailor made for Rafale or for Gripen E and most likely the EF? They also asked for GaN, which only a single fighter offers so far.

As long as Modi is still PM, he will do what he agreed to do in Paris, that is buying more Rafale.

Then why didn't he bought more already and his MoD is fielding 1 tender after the other? He could had made it so simple and just made a 126 Rafale G2G deal and all the nonsense would have stopped. But he didn't! All he was interested in, was a deal to make him look like he acts fast as promised, but today we know that defence is not his priority and that the government don't want to spend that much money, because they keep restricting the budgets.

 

[Sancho]

Aaaaaand that ladies and gentlemen is that. This is a NATO ally of the US remember, imagine the sh!tstorm that will come when India signs for S400 units, chances of top of the line F18/16 models for India WITH local production will be obliterated almost instantly.

You seem to have missed the important news today =>

 

[Sancho]

NDA Renegotiated the deal for the prime reason of channeling offsets into useful kaveri upgradation process.

Please you already proved often enough that you have no idea what you are talking about and this is way too much for you as well, because nobody specifically not the NDA government asked for help with Kaveri. It was Safran that asked DRDO where they would like to see ToT being provided and DRDO suggested Kaveri.

 

[abingdonboy]

You seem to have missed the important news today =>

Nah nah nah. This conditional waiver doesn’t change anything.


The damage has been done, India has seen the true face of what America’s “partnership” offer is about.