Know Your 'Rafale'

Dixit13

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Actually the MiG-35 uses different TVC engines, AESA radar and new composite structures, it has little in common with the MiG-29 India uses and will require whole new chain of support that India would pay for.

If time is of the essence the MiG-35 is the least developed and last aircraft to go for. Egypt had to cancel its order as it was still not finished testing.
You are right about engines, ASEA radar and use of composite materials (Mig-29 about 1-2% / Mig-35 >25%) , that's why i have said we need to upgrade our facilities. Also, MiG-35 has already completed factory trials and is now under Air Force assessment.

""Egypt had to cancel its order"" <<<< Please cite your source for this????:bs:
 

Armand2REP

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You are right about engines, ASEA radar and use of composite materials (Mig-29 about 1-2% / Mig-35 >25%) , that's why i have said we need to upgrade our facilities. Also, MiG-35 has already completed factory trials and is now under Air Force assessment.
""Egypt had to cancel its order"" <<<< Please cite your source for this????:bs:
Egypt getting MiG-29M2 instead of MiG-35 needs a source??
 

Dixit13

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In April 2015, Egypt signed a contract, worth up to $2 billion, for the purchase of 46 MiG-29M/M2 multi-role fighters, also referred to as the MiG-35.
 

BON PLAN

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When i posted my comment i knew sooner or later someone gonna justify the Price tag of it. Training cost, weapons systems, Indian OEMs contracts bla bla bla and some more BS. Mig-35 is upgraded version of Mig-29m2 as India use over 100+ Mig29 comprising of 66 Mig-29UPG and 45 MigK/KUB, so we dont need to build infrastructure and peripherals for it and just need to upgrade them which we have to do in any case as Naval version faces some maintenance issue. Also not much of training is needed.

Above all, given the condition which IAF is in "time is of the essence."
IAF don't want russian plane this time.
With 100+ Mig 29 and 270+ Su30 + some older Mig, Indian air Force wanted to diversify its supply sources.
So no way for Mig35.
 

BON PLAN

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In April 2015, Egypt signed a contract, worth up to $2 billion, for the purchase of 46 MiG-29M/M2 multi-role fighters, also referred to as the MiG-35.
"MiG-35 is a new export variant that combines the modern systems of the MiG-29M2 with an AESA radar. The fighter plane has the thrust vectoring of the MiG-29OVT as an additional option"

So Mig29M2 is not a Mig35.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mig35/
 

Armand2REP

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In April 2015, Egypt signed a contract, worth up to $2 billion, for the purchase of 46 MiG-29M/M2 multi-role fighters, also referred to as the MiG-35.
It is not referred to as MiG-35. Only people that call 29M2 as 35 are seeing the same thing as the demonstrator that was built on the 29M2 airframe.
 

Dixit13

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It is not referred to as MiG-35. Only people that call 29M2 as 35 are seeing the same thing as the demonstrator that was built on the 29M2 airframe.
Yes initially it is referred as 29m2 then 35 (may be to please Egyptians/ or media picked it up wroung) so this confusion exists. And you are right about that Mig-35 (Russian Air force / may be for Egyptian Air force according to wiki) is upgraded version of 29m2 which i have also stated earlier. Full extent of Egyptian deal is not clear and may be they get upgrades in next batch.

But that's not the point here ; Point is Time, Quantity, Money, and operational cost!!!
 

BON PLAN

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Yes initially it is referred as 29m2 then 35 (may be to please Egyptians/ or media picked it up wroung) so this confusion exists. And you are right about that Mig-35 (Russian Air force / may be for Egyptian Air force according to wiki) is upgraded version of 29m2 which i have also stated earlier. Full extent of Egyptian deal is not clear and may be they get upgrades in next batch.

But that's not the point here ; Point is Time, Quantity, Money, and operational cost!!!
About operational cost, the russian products are not known to be cheap and reliable.
The russian support is far away from the west one.
 

Dixit13

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BON PLAN

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Even Mig-29 operational cost is much more cheaper then Rafale, further more; the average cost of Mig-35 flight personnel hours decreased by 2.5 times compared to MiG-29.
France support is a big Joke - ( https://www.defensenews.com/global/...et-in-jeopardy-as-maintenace-contracts-lapse/ )
1) No Mig35 are in an operationnal fleet, so no return about costs.
2) The BS news about M2000 is not a french problem. Read carefully and you will understand it's a pb between IAF and HAL.
 

Dixit13

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And yes their are no operational fleet, but they claim the average cost of Mig-35 flight personnel hours decreased by 2.5 times compared to MiG-29 after field trails.
 

uoftotaku

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And yes their are no operational fleet, but they claim the average cost of Mig-35 flight personnel hours decreased by 2.5 times compared to MiG-29 after field trails.
Any manufacturer can claim anything to market their product. Fact remains that no one, not even the Russian AF themselves has seen it fit to invest in the MiG-35. Only Egypt has purchased the slightly watered down MiG-29M2 so once they come into service we can see what the fuss is about. However, what IS known is the sub-standard performance and various issues the IN has had (and continues to have) with its MiG-29K fleet and similar issues IAF is facing with upgraded MiG-29UPG fleet. There is a very good reason why IN doesn't want any more K's for its new 57 jet requirement. There was an equally good reason why IAF never pursued follow-on orders for the "cheap and effective" MiG-29 after the initial order...even though they practically begged for more M2K's.

Jingoism and Fanboyism aside, we should debating here the effectiveness of a combat platform. Also this thread seems to be deviating further and further from Rafale every day...
 

BON PLAN

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And yes their are no operational fleet, but they claim the average cost of Mig-35 flight personnel hours decreased by 2.5 times compared to MiG-29 after field trails.
May I claim that the operationnal cost of Rafale is 2 times less than Mirage 2000 ? (reality is that Rafale costs 16% more than M2000 to operate)

Facts Bro, only facts.
 

Sancho

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And yes their are no operational fleet, but they claim the average cost of Mig-35 flight personnel hours decreased by 2.5 times compared to MiG-29 after field trails.
And there is the problem! The Mig 29 itself is a low benchmark, since it's operational cost were already high. So even if the Mig 35 would cost less, it still can't compete with the reliability and life of western fighter techs and systems.

There is only 1 way Russia could sell the Mig to us once again, by giving us the complete airframe spare production + full customization with Indian systems beyond the MKI!

Mig 35 airframe with

- OLS
- 3D TVC
- Uttam AESA
- Kaveri / Snecma engine with 90kN thrust

on top of the MKI upgrades (cockpit, avionics, EW, weapons), is a level of customization that no other OEM could provide, not to mention that the Mig is still the best choice for fast integration into IAF.

It also would add all the indigenous systems of LCA MK2, but with proper MMRCA performance and capabilities.

But that I doubt that it would be offered, so we have to consider the best Western choice.
 

Sancho

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You are wrong.

HMS come with F3R.
No it won't, it only comes with the F4 as a standard equipment of the Rafale while Qatar and Indian upgraded their fighters additionally with the capability enhancements to cover the shortfalls. Neither Egypt nor French forces will get standard F3Rs with HMS.

IRST .... what is OSF for you?
The name explains it IR search and track, which is not possible with the TV channel!
IRST will only available with the F4, unless India paid extra again.

Doesn't have low collateral dammage weapon? A weapon is made to kill my dear. What a strange idea to have a low collateral one..
If that would be true, why did the French forces officially asked for such a weapon after Libya? Why did they prefered Brimstone? Why do they have to use 250Kg AASM or LGB kits, modified with concrete warheads today, to cover this shortfall?

The answer is, because neither Brimstone, nor AASM 125 were added to the F3R and the hope now as always is on the F4.
 

BON PLAN

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- Uttam AESA
- Kaveri / Snecma engine with 90kN thrust
That means a fighter with deep modifications (totally new engine + TVC on this new engine) !
In Indian time it will take... 5 years? 7? 8?
 

BON PLAN

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No it won't, it only comes with the F4 as a standard equipment of the Rafale while Qatar and Indian upgraded their fighters additionally with the capability enhancements to cover the shortfalls. Neither Egypt nor French forces will get standard F3Rs with HMS.
NO.
Two kinds of HMS are to be integrated on F3R. And it's not because french pilots don't use it that it's not efficient.

Is the APG80 radar of F16 bk60 not efficient because not used in the US arsenal?

Is the SPICE250 on Rafale not to be efficient because not used in the french planes?
 

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