Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

They did it with a $150,000 weapon, that is not a cost effective option for destroying beat up Toyotas. It is still better to carry the extra weight of a $21k Paveway II.

You already were proven wrong, since French forces uses AASM kits, that are at least as costly as Brimstone, but more costlier than SDB claas weapons for sure. According to Halloween one of the desperate cost cutting measures now, is to take away the rocket propulsion of the kit, because in most missions only the precision is needed not the extended range and it still doesn't offer the flexibility of Brimstone or SDB class weapons, that's why Rafales need to split loads, instead of using a multi mode seeker, or a different weapon of choice.

This a how a Rafale F3R load config would look like (2 x standard AASM most likely with GPS seeker + 2 x AASM with BLU 126 low collateral damage warhead and IR or L seeker):

And this is the new benchmark for CAS with the EF P3E (2 x PW4 with GPS/L guidance + 6 x Brimstone with multi mode seekers):

The Rafale can carry 6 x AASM max, has to split to each wing for a specific target and has to choose seeker options before take off.
EF pilots can carry up to 8 weapons for now (10 with the common launcher), no pre loading selection of weapons and seekers necessary, no issues due to weather or jamming thx to multi mode seekers and the same advantage of precision and low collateral damage.

The EF simply learned from it's mistakes and shortfalls, while Dassault is badly trying to hide the shortfalls of Rafale, by a poor F3R upgrade, that only added the laser seeker to the existing 500lb AASM. That's why the EF made a credible jump forward and is exporting more now, while Rafale remaind pretty much the same.

 

[Sancho]

and?

It proves you wrong as simple as that! But that's nothing new.

 

[Armand2REP]

You already were proven wrong, since French forces uses AASM kits, that are at least as costly as Brimstone, but more costlier than SDB claas weapons for sure. According to Halloween one of the desperate cost cutting measures now, is to take away the rocket propulsion of the kit, because in most missions only the precision is needed not the extended range and it still doesn't offer the flexibility of Brimstone or SDB class weapons, that's why Rafales need to split loads, instead of using a multi mode seeker, or a different weapon of choice.

This a how a Rafale F3R load config would look like (2 x standard AASM most likely with GPS seeker + 2 x AASM with BLU 126 low collateral damage warhead and IR or L seeker):

And this is the new benchmark for CAS with the EF P3E (2 x PW4 with GPS/L guidance + 6 x Brimstone with multi mode seekers):

The Rafale can carry 6 x AASM max, has to split to each wing for a specific target and has to choose seeker options before take off.
EF pilots can carry up to 8 weapons for now (10 with the common launcher), no pre loading selection of weapons and seekers necessary, no issues due to weather or jamming thx to multi mode seekers and the same advantage of precision and low collateral damage.

The EF simply learned from it's mistakes and shortfalls, while Dassault is badly trying to hide the shortfalls of Rafale, by a poor F3R upgrade, that only added the laser seeker to the existing 500lb AASM. That's why the EF made a credible jump forward and is exporting more now, while Rafale remaind pretty much the same.

I wasn't wrong, there was not a single use of AASM to destroy a Toyota. Citing the use of AASM with a lower yield to prevent collateral damage doesn't translate using them filled with concrete. You are just angry that your beloved Eurofighter is spending $150k to destroy a Toyota while your arch nemesis is smart enough to use a $2 million helicopter with $10k missiles.

This is what the usual loadout was for Rafale over Libya... $21k Paveways

This is what did most of the killing, a $2 million Gazelle with a $10k HOT destroying 425 targets.

 

[Sancho]

I wasn't wrong

Yes you were, that's why you keep distracting from the facts of Rafale, to the use of helicopters. :biggrin2:

 

[BON PLAN]

You already were proven wrong, since French forces uses AASM kits, that are at least as costly as Brimstone, but more costlier than SDB claas weapons for sure. According to Halloween one of the desperate cost cutting measures now, is to take away the rocket propulsion of the kit, because in most missions only the precision is needed not the extended range and it still doesn't offer the flexibility of Brimstone or SDB class weapons, that's why Rafales need to split loads, instead of using a multi mode seeker, or a different weapon of choice.

This a how a Rafale F3R load config would look like (2 x standard AASM most likely with GPS seeker + 2 x AASM with BLU 126 low collateral damage warhead and IR or L seeker):

And this is the new benchmark for CAS with the EF P3E (2 x PW4 with GPS/L guidance + 6 x Brimstone with multi mode seekers):

The Rafale can carry 6 x AASM max, has to split to each wing for a specific target and has to choose seeker options before take off.
EF pilots can carry up to 8 weapons for now (10 with the common launcher), no pre loading selection of weapons and seekers necessary, no issues due to weather or jamming thx to multi mode seekers and the same advantage of precision and low collateral damage.

The EF simply learned from it's mistakes and shortfalls, while Dassault is badly trying to hide the shortfalls of Rafale, by a poor F3R upgrade, that only added the laser seeker to the existing 500lb AASM. That's why the EF made a credible jump forward and is exporting more now, while Rafale remaind pretty much the same.

new weapons are coming for Rafale : AASL (armement air sol léger).
Just an exemple : SPEAR.

It can be embark by four, so maybe 3x4 or 4x4 under a single plane...

so don't worry.

 

[BON PLAN]

It proves you wrong as simple as that! But that's nothing new.

and ?
using journalist method (extracting a sentence, in your case a word, from a long argument) don't make you a truthfulness well....

 

[Sancho]

new weapons are coming for Rafale

Yes as all the lacking capabilities, hopefully with the F4 around 2025.
The Rafale doesn't deserve to go down like this and be reduced in it's capability because of unfunded upgrades and the poor F3R.

 

[Sancho]

and ?
using journalist method (extracting a sentence, in your case a word, from a long argument) don't make you a truthfulness well....

Lol you neither are truthful, nor have arguments. You are making up justifications for shortfalls that you can't admit or counter properly. That's why you constantly distract to future F4 capabilities, just to not admit how bad the F3R is, or why Qatar and India needed to invest in extra capabilities for extra money, to make the F3R useful.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes as all the lacking capabilities, hopefully with the F4 around 2025.
The Rafale doesn't deserve to go down like this and be reduced in it's capability because of unfunded upgrades and the poor F3R.

The actual F3 is already far beyond the futur EF with it's retarded AESA noob radar.
So...

 

[BON PLAN]

Lol you neither are truthful, nor have arguments. You are making up justifications for shortfalls that you can't admit or counter properly. That's why you constantly distract to future F4 capabilities, just to not admit how bad the F3R is, or why Qatar and India needed to invest in extra capabilities for extra money, to make the F3R useful.

bla bla bla...
India pay to have a tailor made Rafale. Don't you think they would have taken the marvellous and full option EF for the same price? the answer is simple : EF is less flexible and more expensive. Even a genius like you can understand.

Qatar paid for a helmet. And that's all. And even with that Rafale is cheaper than EF.
All the datas are on the table, so choose better your silly arguments next time, it hurts badly your weak reputation :

24 Rafale for Qatar : 6.3 € billion
24 EF for Qatar : 6.8 € billion

 

[Armand2REP]

new weapons are coming for Rafale : AASL (armement air sol léger).
Just an exemple : SPEAR.

Spear is British, you are looking for Smartglider.

 

[Sancho]

bla bla bla...
India pay to have a tailor made Rafale.

Wrong, India paid to make Rafale capable enough to Indian operational requirements.

Don't you think they would have taken the marvellous and full option EF for the same price?

If it would had been for the same price, they might have, but the Base cost of the EF is higher, while it doesn't require as much customizations as the Rafale.
HMS, Litening, IRST, all integrated and available with no extra cost and now even Spice 250 seems to be on the table.
As the IAF and the current government confirmed, the EF was also suitable to the requirements.

Qatar paid for a helmet. And that's all.

Wrong again, they also paid for the Sniper pod integration and the full weapon pack is afaik not made public either. There were reports about Iris-T/Meteor instead of MICA IR, since they haven't used MICA IR on their Mirage 2000s either.

24 Rafale for Qatar : 6.3 € billion
24 EF for Qatar : 6.8 € billion

Just that the EF costs also include Brimstone, more Meteor because EF can carry more than Rafale in any standard config, superior flight and sensor performance. Rafales for the same cost gets them the superior EW and better deep strike capability. So one has to decide on which operational requirements the priority lies and if the costs justifies it.


If you want lower costs, but sensor capabilities comparable to the EF, EW capabilities comparable or better than Rafales, the 2nd highest Meteor loads and a variety of A2G weapons (thx to 2 customer requirements) and you can justify lower flight performance, the Gripen E is the best choice.

 

[BON PLAN]

Spear is British, you are looking for Smartglider.

better then !
3x6 weapons = 18.

 

[BON PLAN]

Wrong, India paid to make Rafale capable enough to Indian operational requirements.

so Indians didn't found the marvellous EF able to reach indian requirements....

 

[BON PLAN]

If it would had been for the same price, they might have, but the Base cost of the EF is higher, while it doesn't require as much customizations as the Rafale.
HMS, Litening, IRST, all integrated and available with no extra cost and now even Spice 250 seems to be on the table.
As the IAF and the current government confirmed, the EF was also suitable to the requirements.

No SPICE integrated on EF.
No AASM like weapons integrated on EF.
On EF the litening take the space of a (small) external tank... what a smart solution !

 

[BON PLAN]

Wrong again, they also paid for the Sniper pod integration and the full weapon pack is afaik not made public either. There were reports about Iris-T/Meteor instead of MICA IR, since they haven't used MICA IR on their Mirage 2000s either.

Sorry, I have forgotten the Sniper. You win that point.
But is the Sniper integrated on EF? What is the laser pod to be integrated on Qatar EF ? (if Qatar agree to use EF as a AtoG CAS platform). wait and see.

The main problem of MICA IR is that it is made by the same manufacturer than MICA EM and Meteor !
IF, and only IF, they decided to integrate IRIS, it's to rely on two weapons suppliers.

Once again, even with specific options, Rafale costs less than EF and it far more versatile.

 

[BON PLAN]

Just that the EF costs also include Brimstone, more Meteor because EF can carry more than Rafale in any standard config, superior flight and sensor performance. Rafales for the same cost gets them the superior EW and better deep strike capability. So one has to decide on which operational requirements the priority lies and if the costs justifies it.

YOU and I don't know the exact config of Qatar Rafale regarding Meteor.

France choose a config with 2 Meteor. I think India and Qtar will have a minimum of 4.

With Rafale, Qatar ordered SCALP and Hammer.

EF can carry more than Rafale ? : take an appointment with a Doctor ! (Rafale : 9.5T of load, EF nearly 8T).

Sensor performance? RBE2 AESA has a better range than CAPTOR. And CAPTOR E is... unborn.

 

[BON PLAN]

.

 

[Sancho]

Sorry, I have forgotten the Sniper. You win that point.
But is the Sniper integrated on EF? What is the laser pod to be integrated on Qatar EF ? (if Qatar agree to use EF as a AtoG CAS platform). wait and see.

Sniper pod and their deal as mentioned already included Brimstone as part of the weapon pack.

YOU and I don't know the exact config of Qatar Rafale regarding Meteor.

As usual, just jump into excuses instead of checking the Rafale infos and understanding them first.

Rafale can carry Meteor only at the the stations 10/6 + 3/12 => a total of 4 max in CAP config with 2 x supersonic fuel tanks at stations 4/11.
In A2G config, the stations 3/12 will be blocked by A2G weapons, which leaves just 2 x Meteor.

An EF carries a minimum of 4 x Meteor in any configuration, thx to the missile stations at the fuselage. In CAP it could even add 2 more on the wings => 6 max

Even Gripen E can carry more Meteor than Rafale, since the 3 x centerline stations, seems to be the basic fit for most configurations. 3 + 2 (mid wing station) in CAP (=> 5 max) and 3 in strike configs are possible.

 

[Sancho]

EF can carry more than Rafale ? : take an appointment with a Doctor ! (Rafale : 9.5T of load, EF nearly 8T).

The usual paperspec knowledge that you showed before, when I showed you how UAEs F16 B60s can carry more weapons thx to CFTs. Only fanboys use payload figures, without understanding that the key is the number of weapon stations, that are free and able to carry a certain weapon.