Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

The name explains it IR search and track, which is not possible with the TV channel!
IRST will only available with the F4, unless India paid extra again.

First gen OSF use 2 heads : a TV one and a IR one.

Second gen OSF use a near IR head.

 

[BON PLAN]

If that would be true, why did the French forces officially asked for such a weapon after Libya? Why did they prefered Brimstone? Why do they have to use 250Kg AASM or LGB kits, modified with concrete warheads today, to cover this shortfall?

My answer is clear (and answered to the initial question) : there are some low collateral dammage weapons already used on Rafale.

 

[Armand2REP]

If that would be true, why did the French forces officially asked for such a weapon after Libya? Why did they prefered Brimstone? Why do they have to use 250Kg AASM or LGB kits, modified with concrete warheads today, to cover this shortfall?

The answer is, because neither Brimstone, nor AASM 125 were added to the F3R and the hope now as always is on the F4.

Actually the concrete LGBs dropped in Libya were not modified, they were Paveway II training rounds. You want to know why they were used and why no one wants Brimstone? A Paveway II kit costs $21,000, a Brimstone costs $150,000. We will keep using the training rounds until a solution approaching that low price point can be reached. End of Story...

 

[Sancho]

That means a fighter with deep modifications (totally new engine + TVC on this new engine) !
In Indian time it will take... 5 years? 7? 8?

Not necessarily, Kaveri also was slated for integration into a Mig 29 testbed anyway and the DRDO dreams include TVC as well, so taking that from the Russians is actually the best choice .

Other than that, anything else is a basic upgrade and replacement of existing systems. Zhuk AE with an upscale Uttam R77 with Astra is already planned, same goes for Indian bombs or A2G missiles. Avionics and cockpit is the easiest part and done in the UPG as well as the MKI.

 

[Sancho]

NO.
Two kinds of HMS are to be integrated on F3R.

That's what I said! The standard F3R does not have HMS, only Indian and Qatari enhancements on top of the F3R, added it.

Is the APG80 radar of F16 bk60 not efficient because not used in the US arsenal?

It's about what is standard capability and what is customized extra?

French forces F3R and Bahrains F16 B70 are standard production versions and capability wise inferior to Indias custom F3R and UAEs B60.
The APG 80 was funded and developed for the specific needs of the UAE, with specific modes, that neither the RBE 2, nor the APG 81 have. So here as well, the custom radar is more capable than the standard radars.

So no matter how many times you deny it, the F3R does not have HMS, IRST or all radar modes India and the UAE required and most of this, will come only in the future F4, which is exactly why the F3R is such a disappointment.

 

[Sancho]

Actually the concrete LGBs dropped in Libya were not modified, they were Paveway II training rounds.

Not really, since the AASM kits were used in the same manner, when higher precision and low damage was needed!

That's the problem when your forces are forced to experiment to counter operational shortfalls.

It also is an issue for the loads, since most of the CAS missions are not pre-planned, that's why French forces are forced to carry low collateral / modified kits on the 1 wing and standard 250Kg bombs on the other, which reduces the effective load capability.

P.S. Found it!

In the absence of the Brimstone missile used by the RAF, which is smaller and more accurate than the AASM and can take out targets embedded in towns, the French air force decided to use inert AASMs in some situations. These weigh the same as live AASMs, but rubber or concrete replace the explosive. RAF Tornados destroyed Iraqi tanks with similar concrete bombs in 2003.

The inert bombs are equipped with the same GPS navigation systems as the real ones and are also accurate to within 1 meter (3.3 ft.). Dropped from a Rafale, they hit their target at a speed of 300 meters/sec. and do a good job of destroying a tank without causing collateral damage in a 200-meter-dia. circle around the point of impact...

http://m.aviationweek.com/awin/uk-france-fine-tune-libyan-air-ops

 

[Armand2REP]

Not really, since the AASM kits were used in the same manner, when higher precision and low damage was needed!

That's the problem when your forces are forced to experiment to counter operational shortfalls.

It also is an issue for the loads, since most of the CAS missions are not pre-planned, that's why French forces are forced to carry low collateral / modified kits on the 1 wing and standard 250Kg bombs on the other, which reduces the effective load capability.

Not really, they were confused with what RAF was doing. We had our helicopters taking out the vast majority of CAS targets. You can read all about it in the RAND report of Airpower in the Libyan Civil War.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR600/RR676/RAND_RR676.pdf.

 

[Sancho]

Not really, they were confused with what RAF was doing. We had our helicopters taking out the vast majority of CAS targets. You can read all about it in the RAND report of Airpower in the Libyan Civil War.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR600/RR676/RAND_RR676.pdf.

If they are confused, why do you distract to Tiger operations of French army?

 

[Armand2REP]

If they are confused, why do you distract to Tiger operations of French army?

Because I was correcting you with the RAND report. None of your claims about France are in it. They are regarding the RAF.

 

[Sancho]

Because I was correcting you with the RAND report. None of your claims about France are in it. They are regarding the RAF.

Lol and what's your excuse here?

May12,2017|ByEmmanuel Huberdeau
Discovery of the mixed hunting detachment of Chammal

A Rafale armed with four AASM is preparing to leave on mission from the BAP of Jordan. © Air Force
Article published on 5 May 2017 in the Air & Cosmos Magazine. Find this week an article on the A400M in the Defense section of Air & Cosmos.

...The arming of the devices is adapted to these requirements. Patrols take off with a mixed configuration. One Rafale is equipped with four laser-guided GBU-12 bombs, while the other carries GPS-guided AASMs. Again, the bodies of bombs are variegated. Two AASMs are configured with a smaller military load to limit their effects (BLU-126 "low collateral dam-mages bomb"). This mixing offers several options for the crews, who can thus choose the type of guidance and the military load to optimize the effects of their strikes and avoid the collateral damage. The rockets of the armaments can also be adjusted to, for example, trigger the explosion of the bomb once it has penetrated the ground and, again, limit its effects...

http://www.air-cosmos.com/decouverte-du-detachement-de-chasse-mixte-de-chammal-94585

 

[Armand2REP]

Lol and what's your excuse here?

http://www.air-cosmos.com/decouverte-du-detachement-de-chasse-mixte-de-chammal-94585

It doesn't say they were dropping concrete with a $125,000 bomb kit.

 

[Sancho]

It doesn't say they were dropping concrete with a $125,000 bomb kit.

It's tough to defend the shortfalls, when you don't have any arguments.

 

[Armand2REP]

It's tough to defend the shortfalls, when you don't have any arguments.

We didn't have shortfalls with the helicopters destroying 614 targets. It is called a multi-tier force projection. A $10k HOT missile fired from a Gazelle will destroy a Toyota more efficiently than a $125k AASM loaded with concrete... laugh all you want. Cost Efficiency is how you win wars.

 

[Sancho]

We didn't have shortfalls with the helicopters destroying 614 targets.

Looooooool, great solution! Rafale can't do the job, call the French Army!

Rafale Upgrade Ready in 2012
(Source: defense-aerospace.com; posted June 6, 2011; New photo added June 7)
By Giovanni de Briganti

...Major Gen. Stéphane Rebb, the Rafale program manager at DGA, says that with these improvements Rafale’s systems architecture and airframe will remain competitive until about 2025, when it is due for a mid-life upgrade...

...Development of the upgrade, Rebb said, is “part of a continuous process to maintain Rafale’s performance and interoperability” which will also include additional modes for the AESA radar and the acquisition of a new, low collateral-effect weapon as a more effective substitute for the concrete-filled bombs France has sometimes used in Libya to ensure civilian bystanders are not injured by bomb explosions.

These improvements are part of the “enhanced capability package roadmap” agreed in October 2006, and whose development is funded by reducing the Tranche 3 order by two aircraft, and shifting those funds to pay for the upgrade.

Rafale pilots are already able to measure the distance between their intended target and bystanders thanks to the imagery provided by their Damoclès laser designator pod, and can thus see whether there is a risk of collateral damage before firing. This is not enough, however, and a joint defense staff/DGA working group is looking at alternatives, one of which is the off-the-shelf procurement of the Brimstone guided missile (a much-modified variant of the Hellfire) developed and produced by MBDA...

 

[Armand2REP]

Looooooool, great solution! Rafale can't do the job, call the French Army!

It is a cost effective solution and the best one when low value targets need to be destroyed. We did not build Mistrals for nothing nor do we operate attack helicopters for nothing. They were built for a purpose and served that purpose well. They destroyed far more targets than the British combined arms and did it at a fraction of the price.

 

[Sancho]

It is a cost effective solution and the best one when low value targets need to be destroyed. We did not build Mistrals for nothing nor do we operate attack helicopters for nothing. They were built for a purpose and served that purpose well. They destroyed far more targets than the British combined arms and did it at a fraction of the price.

And that's why the EF is surpassing the Rafale now in A2G, because they actually worked on their shortfalls and improved the fighter and didn't just made up excuses.
We can't afford HMS => we don't need it

IRST is not working properly => we can use MICA IR seekers

Damocles doesn't provide proper visual performance => but it's laser has long range

We have no low collateral damage weapon => we reduce the AASM load and use different warheads on half of them

And the future Rafales will have all the capabilities.

 

[Armand2REP]

And that's why the EF is surpassing the Rafale now in A2G, because they actually worked on their shortfalls and improved the fighter and didn't just made up excuses.
We can't afford HMS => we don't need it

They did it with a $150,000 weapon, that is not a cost effective option for destroying beat up Toyotas. It is still better to carry the extra weight of a $21k Paveway II.

 

[BON PLAN]

That's what I said! The standard F3R does not have HMS, only Indian and Qatari enhancements on top of the F3R, added it.

and?
any new customer will have from now the choice between 2 HMS totaaly integrated in the F3R developpment.

to know that this equipment has been integrated on the demand of India or Qatar is an event.

 

[BON PLAN]

So no matter how many times you deny it, the F3R does not have HMS, IRST or all radar modes India and the UAE required and most of this, will come only in the future F4, which is exactly why the F3R is such a disappointment.

No, definitively no.
In few weeks the first Qatar F3R Rafale will be delivered, with a HMS totally integrated.
Next year the Indian F3R Rafale will be delivered, with another HMS totally integrated.

SO 2 HMS WILL BE READY ON F3R RAFALE.

F4 is for 2022. Any new customer, before this time, will be offered F3R WITH a choice of 2 HMS.
End of the story.

 

[WolfPack86]

The training of Indian pilots and maintenance personnel in preparation for delivery of Rafale fighters is in progress in France, Dassault Aviation chairman and CEO Eric Trappier told AIN in describing progress with the Indian air force contract for 36 Rafale fighters. He also commented on the latest Indian request for information (RFI) for more new fighters while visiting India as head of a delegation from the French Aerospace Industries Association (French acronym: GIFAS). However, Trappier made only passing reference to the financial and legal troubles that have recently beset the Reliance Group, Dassault’s partner in India for the Rafale contract.

In addition to the training in France, India is preparing a hangar at the Reliance Defence facility at Nagpur, where parts for the Rafale are being made, with deliveries to start this year. Dassault Aviation has started looking for more offset partners. Major subcontractors to the French manufacturer that have already tied up with Indian companies include engine maker Safran and Dassault Systèmes, providing 3D modeling and product lifecycle management (PLM) software. Thales announced last year it would develop Indian capabilities to integrate and maintain the radar and electronic warfare sensors at the Nagpur facility along with an Indian supply chain for manufacturing microwave technologies and high performance airborne electronics.Currently, the Reliance Group's flagship company, Reliance Communications, is embroiled in court cases brought by minority shareholders, and stemming from its inability to repay lenders. The group has debts of $18 billion. A senior official at the Indian MoD has questioned the status of Reliance Defence, since the MoD’s Defense Procurement Policy is very strict on the credit rating of vendors. However, a Reliance official at the Nagpur facility told AIN: “The legal case has nothing to do with Reliance Defence, which is a part of [a separate] subsidiary, Reliance Infrastructure.”

Trappier said that Dassault is busy responding to the recently released RFI for 110 more fighters. The request cites 75 percent of these as single-seaters and the remainder as two-seaters. A maximum of 15 percent of the aircraft would be delivered in a flyaway state, with the remainder to be made in India by a Strategic Partner/Indian Production Agency. The current RFI dropped an earlier stipulation that the new fighters be single-engine.

But the Dassault chief declined to confirm that Reliance would be the partner in bidding for the 110 fighters. “There is a process of the RFI, and we will see at the time of the Request for Proposal…there is nothing as of now,” he said. “We need a variety of other suppliers [and] we are ready to transfer technology, because my government supports this and our own commitment to India,” he added.

Trappier also noted that the Indian Navy requirement for 57 carrier-capable fighters would be best met by the Rafale naval variant. However, the seaborne Rafale currently used by the French is built for CATOBAR operations (catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery). The Indian Navy's current aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya and the forthcoming Indigenous Aircraft Carrier-1 are designed for STOBAR operations (short takeoff but arrested recovery).
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